Archives => 2004 => Topic started by: krissel on January 29, 2004, 12:56:51 AM

Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on January 29, 2004, 12:56:51 AM
I need to choose between the lesser of two evils.

I know the recommended way to restart the system is via the software commands in the menu (OS 9). This is preferred over the three finger restart via keyboard.

BUT, when I do that I have to turn off my monitor, wait a second til the light goes out and then turn it back on. If I don't do that I get just a black screen. For some reason having to do with the video card, I lose the connection on a software restart. However on a keyboard restart the video comes back without turning off the monitor.

So, which is worse, doing a keyboard restart or turning off and on the monitor?  huh.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: Gregg on January 29, 2004, 07:42:29 AM
Take my advice. Turning off the monitor is worse. Do the keyboard restart.

(I have no techincal back up for that, just want you to rest easy.)
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: tacit on January 29, 2004, 04:37:20 PM
When you say "keyboard restart," what do you mean? If you mean hitting the power switch, waiting for the "Do you want to shut down your computer?" dialog, and pressing R or clicking the Restart button, then it is the same as the menu restart.

If you mean resetting the computer--DON'T DO THIS. Doing this does not write out the contents of the cache to disk and does not close down the filesystem properly. Every time you reset your computer this way, you run the risk of corrupted disk directory entries or damaged files.
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on January 29, 2004, 06:17:06 PM
By keyboard restart I mean the Command, Control, Power restart that is usually reserved for when the machine is otherwise frozen.
Usually referred to as the three finger salute.


Would it make any difference if I manually close down all the open apps then do the key restart?

Of course all this wouldn't be necessary if I could figure out how to overcome the dropping of signal to the monitor and inability to reconnect without turning it totally off.   dry.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: jepinto on January 29, 2004, 06:24:32 PM
Why have an off switch on the monitor if it's not intended to be used?

Monitor switch off vote here.
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: Xairbusdriver on January 29, 2004, 07:09:58 PM
I vote for turning the monitor off and doing the software restart. At least until you can get the monitor disconnect problem fixed. Perhaps a visit to the video board's maker might reveal some kind of upgrade )software or firmware).

As for why the monitor has a power switch, it's probably the same reason there's one on the Mac - 'that's just the way we've always done it!' and we have all these switches in the warehouse... doh.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on January 29, 2004, 10:39:17 PM
Thanks for the input.

My concern in frequently turning the monitor off and on is whether it will have a negative impact on the longevity of the CRT, not to mention the switch itself. I can hear that "poing" sound when the monitor is turned back on and I can only imagine it taking its toll.

I suppose it is akin to the argument over whether leaving the computer on all the time or turning it off will lead to longer lasting life?

When the computer is restarted via the keyboard I do have the Disk First Aid window come up that tells me the computer wasn't shut down properly, blah blah, and it then checks and repairs before loading extensions. So I'm not saving any time this way but it beats having to turn the monitor off and on, which needs to  be done before the ATI extension loads.  dry.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: Gary S on January 30, 2004, 09:07:04 AM

I still don't understand why you have to turn your monitor off and on again after shutting down the proper way via the Menu->Shut Down or the power switch->Are you sure you want to shut down your computer now?
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: kelly on January 30, 2004, 09:09:59 AM
It's no different than someone hittting you with a hammer to put you to sleep. smile.gif

The joy of all those extra PCI Slots.

Of course you Zapped the PRAM first thing? smile.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on January 30, 2004, 10:58:30 PM
QUOTE(Gary S @ Jan 30 2004, 10:07 AM)
I still don't understand why you have to turn your monitor off and on again after shutting down the proper way ...

 Shutting down is not the problem since I turn the monitor off anyway. It's using the restart system command that loses sync.

Here's another oddity... if I use the Startup Disk and restart via that to another partition, no problem. It keeps sync and the monitor comes back on of its own accord. It's only if I restart to the same system. And some installations that require a restart will also bring back the monitor, not all, but many will.

Why would zapping the PRAM have any affect under these circumstances? But anyway I've zapped the PRAM a few times over the past year and it hasn't made any difference. I've just been putting up with this annoyance for all that time.. dry.gif

Man, this is really perplexing.   huh.gif  Guess I'll have to live with it.  sad.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: kelly on January 30, 2004, 11:52:59 PM
Why PRAM? smile.gif

It's the first thing I would do.

Make sure it's not a matter of Corrupt PRAM Settings.

Why would you not think that? huh.gif

Have you done the Patented Gary Deep PRAM Zap? smile.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on January 31, 2004, 01:20:16 AM
OK, just to satisfy all curiosities I went through the entire procedure outlined in the til article, zapped PRAM, restarted with extensions off, dumped prefs and restarted.

What happens when I zap PRAM is the main monitor doesn't light up at all and the system loads on my second monitor (which is usually off). So after all the messing around and resetting monitor prefs I'm back to square one.

On earlier computers, the resolution is stored in PRAM and is read at system startup time by the video driver in ROM. Later versions of Apple Displays software rely on a preference stored on the hard drive to set this resolution instead of the PRAM setting. This preference is read during the startup sequence, and is applied either during system startup time, or when the Finder starts up, depending on the video controller.
Different video cards and built-in video handle resolution preference loading at different times, depending on when the driver for the video card and built-in video is loaded.

What usually happens is the startup screen is at 800x600 res until the ATI extension loads then it switches to the selected res (1024x768) for the rest of the startup process. Only difference I noticed after zapping, etc. is the res didn't switch until just before the desktop loaded. I haven't restarted again to see if the switch of res goes back to it's former point.
It's not a matter of selecting unsupported resolutions either as the card supports up to 1920x1080.

Nonetheless the screen remains dark unless I turn off the monitor and then turn it back on. The second monitor loads a pattern OK but it's not the one chosen for the system. I'm afraid it's just some anomaly with the video card (Original Mac Radeon 32 MB) combined with that particular monitor (Mitsubishi Diamond Plus 91).

Title: Which is worse?
Post by: chriskleeman on January 31, 2004, 07:46:17 AM
Hi Kris,

I recently had the same problem with a refurbed monitor... the monitor wasn't picking up the start signal from the card... and exhibited almost exactly the same symptoms. I'm not running a Radeon, but it is an ATI Rage. this seems a possibility, especially if your second monitor is picking up the start signal. If you have some  electronic contact cleaner, take the VGA connector off from the Mitsubishi and spray on the contacts both on the card and on the cable. Exercise the contacts a couple of times (plugging, replugging, etc) and see if it picks up the start signal properly. If that doesn't make it work, my vote is for an intermittent cable on your Mitsubishi. I know this sounds a little simplistic, but I was able to isolate the problem to the monitor when this happened before.

Hope this helps.

Title: Which is worse?
Post by: kelly on January 31, 2004, 08:44:30 AM
krissel. I didn't guarantee that would fix it. smile.gif

It just needed to be done.

I hope CK's tip helps. smile.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: Gary S on January 31, 2004, 01:44:37 PM

Have you done the Patented Gary Deep PRAM Zap?

This may help. I don't know what kind of PRAM zap you did but here is the one that will
reset your Video card to the manufactures original settings and it works very well.

You must Zap the PRAM from a cold boot.

•1-shut down the machine.
•2-boot the machine with the Command-Option-P-R keys as usual and keep them depressed for 5-6 chimes.
•Don't forget to reset your start-up disk.

™Gary Deep PRAM Zap
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on January 31, 2004, 02:13:50 PM
Thanks guys for all the suggestions.

Gary, yes, that's the basic method I used but only 5 chimes. smile.gif

Chris, I will give that a try if I can get some of that cleaner. However the second monitor is on a different video card so it's picking up the signal through a different path anyway.

Kelly, why what do  you mean you didn't promise?

You know we all take your word as gospel around here.... wink.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: chriskleeman on January 31, 2004, 08:56:06 PM

If you haven't, switch the monitors on the video cards first and see what happens. Hardware problems are usually easier to pin down... usually by process of elimination... kinda like Conflict Catcher, but without all the restarts!!!

Seriously, switch out those monitors and see what happens then. I run a lot of electronic equipment and I find that corrosion and moisture show up in the most unlikely places... Even taking out the PCI card and using electronic contact cleaner might solve the problem.

$5.49 at Radio Shack, although if you know an electronics store near you, Cramolin is the best stuff.  

Title: Which is worse?
Post by: mooregr on January 31, 2004, 10:28:41 PM
You don't mention what model of Macintosh you are using. This might make a difference maybe open-firmware related. I looked on the Mitsubishi web site and they are recommending turning the monitor off for 20 seconds and then back on.

It mayu also be related to DDC monitor support in the ATI card.  This maybe incorrectly sensing the monitor information. I would not be worried about turning the monitor off.
Hope it helps
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on February 01, 2004, 06:37:57 PM
Chris, thanks for the name of the cleaner. I'll look for it next time I'm near Radio Shack.

When I first got the video card (over a year ago) and this was happening I did try switching the two monitors just to test. The older  video card is only 8MB so I don't want to use it as my main monitor but was willing to swap to troubleshoot.  Anyway, if I remember correctly I had all kinds of trouble with getting any signal at all on the second monitor from the newer  card, it kept giving me an out of sync message. The older monitor has a special adapter that has pin settings and works just fine with the older card but not the new one, with or without the adapter. So I had no choice but to set it up the way it is now.

Guy, thanks for the link to the troubleshooting at Mitsubishi. The page you posted was for if I had a blinking power LED but that's not what I get. I backed up in the troubleshooting map to the beginning and started out with the No Signal and amber light. Unfortunately I follow the steps to the part where it says power the computer off and on and if the picture shows check my Energy settings. Well first of all I have it set to never sleep and the computer is certainly not going to sleep when  I select the Restart from the menu. Second, I don't have the problem when the whole computer is shut down and started up, it happens on system restart only. Arggg.!

BTW, I have a 9600, G4 700, 1.4 G RAM, 4G and 18 G drives, USB/FW cards, etc. running 9.1. The second card is an 8MB XclaimVR.

There's one thing I saw in that map that I have yet to try and that is a reset of the monitor from the front control panel but I want to wait until  the situation happens again.


Thanks again for all the suggestions. Will let you know if anything works. smile.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on February 07, 2004, 01:45:31 AM
Intriguing development:

Quite by accident I have found the culprit in my restart/no sync to monitor problem.

While testing out a new scanner I plugged its USB cable into the USB  hub and somehow doing so knocked out my USB MS Optical mouse. Since the USB is through a PCI card I always keep my ADB mouse plugged into the keyboard (but stuffed under the desk) just for occasions like this.

Unplugging and replugging the USB did not reenable the ports so I realized the hub needing a reboot along with the computer.  I used the ADB mouse to select system restart from the menu fully expecting to go through the turn off/on the monitor routine.

Well, to my surprise the monitor did not lose sync and immediately lit back up with the startup screen, etc.

I have since tested this with the USB mouse and the ADB mouse and it is repeatable. No sync if I use the USB mouse to select restart, sync if I use the ADB mouse.

Needless to say, I'm glad I have an alternate method to preserve my poor monitor. toothgrin.gif

But.. now who can explain the reason why?  huh.gif  huh.gif  huh.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: Bruce_F on February 07, 2004, 09:50:48 AM
That is intriguing, Kris.

With my G4 MDD desktop there are times, such as a software glitch, when the WACOM mouse I use stops functioning all together. (not often) Then I must rely on the original USB mouse to get the cursor to move.

Other than that, I can't recall a time when the WACOM mouse commands don't funtion on menus in the Finder.

What you're experiencing sounds like a driver issue. Are you running with the latest mouse driver? Have you ever re-installed the driver software? Does the MS driver keep a preference file?
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: Gary S on February 07, 2004, 11:01:38 AM
The plot thickens! Have you tried Sherlock.......I mean Sherlock Holmes that is. wink.gif

I cna't figure out the ADB vs USB mouse thing other than a faulty USB driver or something faulty with the MSN mouse or the USB card.

Very wierd. How long has this been happening, from the time you started using the USB mouse or just recently?

At least some progress is being made.

You know, I had a USB hub on my beige G3 that my USB mouse was plugged into that would occasionally not load properly or where on booting-up my USB mouse wouldn't work. If I unplugged the mouse from the hub and plugged it in again, 9 out of 10 times, it would work without a reboot.
When I got the G4 I bought a new Belkin USB hub and put it on the Beige G3 put the old hub on the G4. I haven't had the problem since on the G3, not once! The old USB hub functions fine on the G4.
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on February 07, 2004, 05:11:16 PM
Crazy isn't it?

The hub, mouse and monitor all were put into use about the same time over a year ago so I never isolated the mouse as having anything to do with how the monitor behaved. The right confluence of events didn't occur until the other day when i accidentally knocked out the hub.

I do have all the latest drivers for the mouse and it has always worked fine and never missed a beat. What is so strange is that the mouse cursor selects the menu restart just like any other mouse would. How could that have any effecct on what the system or monitor does from there? Once a command is made it shouldn't make any difference by which mouse. The command is from the same origin, so why....????

Man, this is nuts.  wacko.gif  huh.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: Gary S on February 07, 2004, 10:09:44 PM
To quote the Beatles....."Very Strange". whistling.gif  eusa_dance.gif

It's starting to drive me nuts too. Thinking.gif

I figured Kelly would have come up with a link today. wink.gif

Too bad you don't have another USB mouse to hook up and try.
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on February 09, 2004, 12:48:47 AM
QUOTE(Gary S @ Feb 7 2004, 11:09 PM)
Too bad you don't have another USB mouse to hook up and try.

Actually I do but it only has X.x drivers so would only work generically on 9.1. But I may give it a try later anyway out of curiosity. rolleyes.gif

After some reading I came across information discussing the ADB/USB shim that was included in the Mac ROM in newer Mac OSes but that the USB support also was updated for better ADB support.

"For external USB mice and keyboards to be fully compatible and interoperate seamlessly... an ADB shim is used to convert USB mouse and keyboard events into ADB packets. "

Then I noticed in THIS THREAD, giantmike's reference to THIS SOFTWARE from Apple, I was wondering if it would be safe to try those USB extensions. It is technically for built-in USB Macs and I saw that version 1.5.1 "- fixed problem with supporting USB PCI Cards which do not correctly support Power Management."

 I did download the software and ran some of the USB programs to test the USB bus and got some interesting info. Notably that the USB PCI card in the 9600 seems to have a high speed port and a regular port. Whether this has anything to do with the powered hub attached to the outside of it I don't know, but doubt it. However this doesn't have anything to do with the mouse situation.

I also found out that the device at port 6 (the mouse) :

Expert - Could not find Native Power Manager Lib 0

So, I am surmising that the driver for the USB mouse doesn't have the proper management protocols to interpret the normally ADB commands
to my computer. Since the ADB mouse and the keyboard both give the correct command to keep sync with the monitor that seems to be the key. One little fly in this ointment is that some program installers that require a restart do keep sync when they demand a restart from their final install window. Maybe there are extra calls in that software to complete the proper restart mechanism???

Well, I'm sure no one else really cares about this anyway but I though I would at least go with it as far as I could.

Do I dare put in those extensions for the USB from 9.2.1 or just let it go...there was a semi-warning that those drivers were not intended for end users.

 huh.gif  Thinking.gif
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: FLASH1296 on February 17, 2004, 05:43:37 PM
I turn my monitor  (19"  CRT  Princeton Graphics EO90)  OFF   whenever I so much as step away from it for more than a 1/2 hr.  I would guess that i is turned ON and OFF at least a dozen times per day   --  and has been doing just that for 6 years.

This is a no-brainer.

By the way, under O S  9,  you can easily reorder the startup  LOADING  ORDER  of  extensions  including the ATI extensions.
Title: Which is worse?
Post by: krissel on February 17, 2004, 06:55:18 PM
Thanks FLASH.

Things are back to "normal" now. The extensions are loading in their proper order and the resolution switch occurs early in the startup sequence.

Unfortunately "normal" means my little eureka of using the ADB mouse doesn't work now.  sad.gif  I have gone back to turning off the monitor on system restart. Haven't tried those other USB extensions yet.

Glad to hear you have put your monitor through such a stressful routine successfully. I usually set my monitor and system to sleep manually and everything wakes up OK so that is helpful.

My basic worries over turning things on and off like that harken back to warnings that the most stress on electronics, especially things with tubes, was in the startup process. I remember reading that TV's usually fail from that procedure more than anything else and that flourescent lights are actually rated by how many times they are turned on, not on the hours lighted like incandescent bulbs. Maybe it's the switch/starter itself and not the tubes? Perhaps this is old thinking but it's what I have always believed.
Kind of like the adage that the worst times during plane flights is the takeoff and landing, right ADB?  wink.gif

Anyway, thanks for the input. I won't worry so much about the monitor going on me.  smile.gif