Author Topic: New forum-New Look  (Read 6515 times)

Offline jepinto

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« on: May 13, 2007, 08:47:46 AM »
We have been discussing how to better accommodate our original Mission as well as the various interests of our members and the community we have grown over the years. In order to better meet the goal of giving quick and concrete advice to those who come with problems, we decided to separate the technical threads from those that are of a general nature.

So when you come to the new board after the upgrade you will find a Tech forum and a Community forum.

The Tech forum is for seeking help or discussing matters of a technical nature such as Macs, PCs, operating systems, hardware (drives, iPods, burners, etc.), related products like cameras, printers, cell phones, etc. as well as news regarding the business and development of technology. Remember our motto: There is no such thing as a stupid question.

The Community forum is a place where the members of Techsurvivors can share their experiences and anecdotes, photos, etc. and discuss any and all non technical subjects in a more relaxed environment. Sports, holidays, trips, birthdays, and even a little silliness is acceptable.

Please note that we may move any thread to the 'Community' forum if we deem it appropriate to do so.

Please remember that our Guidelines regarding the tenor and content of posts will remain in effect.

We hope you like the new features and as always, we extend our appreciation to the greatest group of online denizens, the members of Techsurvivors!

Your Admins
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 08:53:35 AM by jepinto »
Do not fear your enemies.  The worse they can do is kill you.  Do not fear friends.  At worst, they may betray you.
Fear those who do not care; they neither kill nor betray, but betrayal and murder exist because of their silent consent.
~Bruno Jasienski~

Offline Epaminondas

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« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2007, 09:57:23 AM »
That's too bad.

The magic of Techsurvivors is that everything is on one forum.  Technical conversation drifts into social conversation and drifts back into technical conversation - like in real life.

And we all get to know one another while helping each other at the same time.

Putting the social and technical forums separately will destroy the magic that is Techsurvivors.

It will make  Techsurvivors just like every other forum on the Internet.

A poor decision.  


Can this decision be revisited - perhaps in a democratic fashion rather than as a fait accompli?


Thank you,

Epaminondas

Offline george

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« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2007, 09:57:47 AM »
Fork on the Board, Community one way Tech the other.................Excellent!

Offline RobW

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« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 11:09:49 AM »
Epaminondas, I can tell you that the EC spent many hours (days, weeks, months rolleyes.gif) discussing this. (I'm not even sure if the word "discussing" does the process justice.) It was not a decision that was made easily, but in the end, it was generally felt that for many reasons, it was best to give this a try.

Certainly, technical threads will often have a tone to it that is part social conversation--that's partly due to the folks here who make up TS. However, we'd like to try to have a forum where people (current members and potentially new members) can easily find the tech information that they're looking for without having to wade through such a high number of "OT" threads.
-Rob
A couple of IMacs, an iPad, a bunch of iPhones...two of which don’t live here, but I still pay for. Oh yeah, wife, daughters, and yes—a grandson!

Offline gunug

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« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 11:09:58 AM »
I've seen it both ways but I've come to like it the way it is!  One man one opinion; we'll see how it works out!   dntknw.gif
"If there really is no beer in heaven then maybe at least the
computers will work all of the time!"

Offline kimmer

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« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2007, 11:38:18 AM »
I'm sure it was a tough decision.

I'll be here even if I decide I'm not nuts about it once it happens.

Thanks for all the hard work!

Offline chriskleeman

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« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2007, 02:35:03 PM »
I think we all owe it to the Admins to give it a try. We are an ever evolving group of people with such diverse backgrounds and experience. That along with all the other aspects of the mosaic we call TS must make it difficult to arrive at a decision like this.

I have had some personal communication with some of the Admins which have left me with the distinct feeling that they work pretty hard at keeping our little community up and running. So let's all try to go with the flow here and give their efforts a chance to work and get the glitches out (should there be any of course... harhar.gif ) and see what happens!

Just one man's opinion.

Chris K notworthy.gif  thanx.gif
Just a dumb guitar player...
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Offline Epaminondas

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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 10:41:05 PM »
QUOTE
It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it.
               
- unnamed US major speaking after the destruction of the Vietnamese Village Ben Tre, as quoted by Peter Arnett, Feb 7, 1968


Sometimes solutions by well-meaning people are not the solutions that they appear to be.

Sometimes solutions cause more harm than the problem that they were intended to solve.

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.


If there are problems with Techsurvivors, there are better solutions than destroying the structure of the underlying character of Techsurvivors.

Separating Techsurvivors into different fora will fundamentally change its character - character built upon the happy accidents of Techsurvivor's formation.

It is like tearing down an old mom-and-pop Florida motel - where you get to know the owner-proprietors during your stay - and replacing it with a brand-spanking-new soulless condominium.  One structured just like every other identical soulless condominium on the beach.

Or like replacing the musty old hardware store with a wonderful new Walmart.

Sure - it sounds great on paper.

Focus groups agree.

The town council has debated the matter extensively and has all voted for it.


But so much is lost.


I urge that the matter be reconsidered.  

Perhaps discussion by the general membership - even a vote - might be in order.

Perhaps other solutions might be considered.


If it is a matter of new blood - there may be better ways to get in new blood.

If it is a matter of individual or of group dynamics - there may be a better way to address the issues.

But destroying the underlying character of Techsurvivors is no solution.


This is not a minor housekeeping improvement.

It is a ripping apart of the core of what makes Techsurvivors Techsurvivors.

What will be lost is much more than what will be gained.


Respectfully,

Epaminondas

__________________________________________________________


They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique
And a swinging hot spot

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

They took all the trees
Put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Hey farmer farmer
Put away that DDT now
Give me spots on my apples
But leave me the birds and the bees
Please!

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Late last night
I heard the screen door slam
And a big yellow taxi
Took away my old man

Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you've got
Till it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot


Joni Mitchell
Big Yellow Taxi
1970
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 10:43:11 PM by Epaminondas »

Offline sandbox

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« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 01:27:28 AM »
WoW E, like the new arrangements is going to stop anyone from posting anything they post today, hey? Talk about overkill, cheeze...

Take a close look at the Mac forum, what you may notice is that it's hardly a Mac Forum, but a forum slowly but surely being transformed into an OT: forum. That wasn't our intention, that is just the fact.  We are responding to the facts, Joni Michelle aside.

Metaphorically speaking, if you like Joni’s parking lots you’ll luv John Kays! hi.gif


QUOTE
THE OSTRICH

From the 1968 release "Steppenwolf"
   Steppenwolf Cover


Words and music by John Kay

We'll call you when you're six years old
And drag you to the factory
To train your brain for eighteen years
With promise of security
But then you're free
And forty years you waste to chase the dollar sign
So you may die in Florida
At the pleasant age of sixty nine

The water's getting hard to drink
We've mangled up the country side
The air will choke you when you breathe
We're all committing suicide
But it's alright
It's progress folks keep pushin' till your body rots
Will strip the earth of all it's green
And then divide her into parking lots

But there's nothing you and I can do
You and I are only two
What's right and wrong is hard to say
Forget about it for today
We'll stick our heads into the sand
Just pretend that all is grand
Then hope that everything turns out ok


You're free to speak your mind my friend
As long as you agree with me
Don't criticize the father land
Or those who shape your destiny
'Cause if you do
You'll lose your job your mind and all the friends you knew
We'll send out all our boys in blue
They'll find a way to silence you

But there's nothing you and I can do
You and I are only two
What's right and wrong is hard to say
Forget about it for today
We'll stick our heads into the sand
Just pretend that all is grand
Then hope that everything turns out ok
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 01:36:30 AM by sandbox »

Offline jepinto

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« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2007, 11:19:58 AM »
oops.gif the thread was closed by mistake, I do believe.  (One of the many Admin options is the ability to close a thread from the index page, by clicking and holding a second too long.)

So, while all may not agree with the split forum decision, we can continue to discuss it.
Do not fear your enemies.  The worse they can do is kill you.  Do not fear friends.  At worst, they may betray you.
Fear those who do not care; they neither kill nor betray, but betrayal and murder exist because of their silent consent.
~Bruno Jasienski~

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2007, 12:06:42 PM »
Given the dearth of "help me" or other computer related topics, the Technical forum will not see much activity, will it? I'm sure someone has "monitored" the situation. What are the statistics???
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Epaminondas

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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2007, 03:28:59 PM »
QUOTE
So, while all may not agree with the split forum decision, we can continue to discuss it.

Closing the matter to discussion was pretty childish.

QUOTE
Take a close look at the Mac forum, what you may notice is that it's hardly a Mac Forum, but a forum slowly but surely being transformed into an OT: forum. That wasn't our intention, that is just the fact.


Yes, of course.  Everyone can see that.

You have no special powers of observation.

But the way to deal with a troublesome baby is not to shoot the baby.

No.


First you figure out (1) why it happened .

Then you figure out (2) what to do about it.


(1) Why:

I submit that the forum has a dearth of technical posts because -  Apple has gotten its act together very, very well.

The Macintosh is now a mature platform.

It has become a telephone - you don't have to think, you just use it.


There just aren't that many things that go wrong with Apple Macintosh machines anymore.

So there is a dearth of technical questions.

Simple as that.


Now, was that hard?


MUGs (Macintosh User Groups) have gone through this same process.

There was a time when there were Apple MUGs in every city.  I used to attend mine regularly each month.

But I believe that most MUGs have long since disbanded.

Why?

Because Apple Macintoshs became much easier to use.

You did not need the MUGs anymore.

They became largely irrelevant.


Local MUGs certainly did not deal with the issue of irrelevancy by breaking off into a technical branch and a social branch.

That would have been silly.

That would have just accelerated their demise.


(2) What to do:

Those MUGs that remain active - as I understand it - do so because of active leadership and interesting presentations of value to their membership.

I.e. - they do not see themselves as "trouble-shooting" groups.  Because Macs have fewer and fewer troubles to shoot these days.

Troubleshooting groups - to stay alive and prosper - need to reinvent themselves as something else.

Something MORE.


As I understand it the MUGs that have survived see themselves not as trouble-shooting groups but as value-added groups.  Providing education and presentations:

"Doing such-and-such in Photoshop."

"Tutorial on the parts of Microsoft Office that you never use."

Whatever . . .

_______________________________________________________

If you don't like the direction that Techsurvivors is going in, then do something about it.  Just don't do the wrong thing.

Splitting Techsurvivors up into separate fora is the wrong thing.

The particular chemistry that is Techsurvivors came about entirely by accident.  It was not planned.

YOU will plan it right out of existence.


Techsurvivors is a much more pleasant forum that most fora on the Internet.

It is not just  the people.  There are plenty of good people on the Internet.

It is because of Techsurvivors' unique structure.

Change the structure to what everyone else has on the Internet - and you change what is unique about Techsurvivors into being  the same as what everyone else has on the Internet.

Just another web site.


The structure of Techsurvivors is like a business golf outing.  Sure you get some work done - but you also get some air, some light, tell some jokes, how are the kids,  and you talk about some other things, as well.

Splitting Techsurvivors over into two fora from one forum is like changing the atmosphere of a business meeting from a golfing outing to that of a formal business meeting with a formal agenda and secretary taking notes.  It will  mean that there will have to be some petty dictator running around policing the fora with a heavier hand than is currently necessary - the typical "you can't post this in this forum, it goes in the other forum" garbage.  Locking threads inappropriately - typical of novice moderators.  All sorts of silliness that never needed to happen in the first place.

The more rules and divisions and sections that you have, the more policing that you have to do.  The more policing that you have to do, the more bad feelings are generated.

And the more you burn out your policemen.

______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________


If Techsurvivors is going more Off Topic, have you considered that it may be because its members like it that way?

If you don't like it - why don't you volunteer to lead some sort of technical teaching project?

"OSX - the command line."

"OSX - Internet Radio Explorations - What's Available"

"OSX / Vista - Dual Booting"

And if people respond to your post - great!

If they ignore your posts - then they are not interested.

And if they just keep going Off Topic - maybe they would just prefer  each others' jokes and comparing what books they read most recently . . .

Maybe the Mac has become a telephone.

Maybe they just want to talk?

______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________


If you don't like the off-topic threads - stop reading them!

No one is forcing you to read them!

I don't read half of them, myself.

Do you read the newspaper from cover to cover?

I don't.  The advice to teenagers column would boor me to tears - while bringing back too many hard memories.

But I do not protest the existence of such columns in the newspaper.

To each his own.


If being a moderator forces you to read everything that is on Techsurvivors and you find that too painful - then consider another gig.

But don't change the dynamic of a uniquely successful Internet forum to make it read to your liking.

______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________


Stop trying to be a Kindergarten teacher and forcing people to do what you want them to do.

These are mature adults you are dealing with.

Treat them as such.


Best regards,

Epaminondas
« Last Edit: May 14, 2007, 03:29:40 PM by Epaminondas »

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2007, 03:50:21 PM »
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ May 14 2007, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Closing the matter to discussion was pretty childish.


C'mon! Ya gotta read the whole sentence. It was closed by mistake. I find your tone offensive. Present your opinions, but lighten up a little. smile.gif
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Xairbusdriver

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« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2007, 04:23:17 PM »
Perhaps you should look into seeing what your local MUG is doing. There are certainly not as many as in the past but there are some extremely active and growing ones. But the reason they are surviving and even growing is due to the participation of the members, not just the leadership.

I'm sorry you think the sky is falling, at least on TS, but I doubt you know the amount of discussion and 'back-and-forth' that went on by the admins. Nor are you aware of the complaints by those members who find the amount of "OT" threads disruptive and space wasting.

I think you also simply do not understand that there is no attempt to block/delete/dissuade personal, friendly, even 'off-topic' posts in a "Technical" topic. I'm a little baffled how you came to the extreme conclusions you seem to have drawn. I can only suggest that you see how things go for a few weeks. It is certainly nothing written in stone, remember, all this stuff is simply a bunch of uniquely ordered electrons or magnetic bits on a disk. I've yet to see anything here that has had any significant effect on global warming, tsunami warnings or even my paycheck! smile.gif

But thanks for your comments, we always want to kow how you 'guys' feel about TS! smile.gif
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And the United States = The Banana system
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Offline bellbram

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« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2007, 04:49:21 PM »
If you don't mind two pennies worth from a foreigner in the Isle of Man I say give it a go.  Let's wait and see if it works before we moan about it.  Personally I think it will.