Post by: Epaminondas on July 15, 2006, 10:57:58 PM
The area she is looking at apparently has unplowed packed snowy streets during a significant part of the winter.
Her current car only has 260,000 miles on it and is already falling apart. Sheesh! Head gasket leak to boot.
They don't make them like they never did!
The current car will not pass the auto inspection where she is heading, so it is beginning to be time to consider another set of wheels.
Suggestions?
I am thinking all-wheel-drive but I have never actually driven an all-wheel-drive car.
Rear wheel drive in snow = spinning back wheels. Been there.
Front wheel drive in snow = great traction BUT can spin in a circle in a fraction of a second with inadvertent engine braking (I've done that twice driving slowly on packed snow while slowing down at a curve just before a stop sign).
I'd like to guide her to the safest thing she can drive. She is a novice at snow-driving.
Thank you,
Epaminondas
Post by: gunug on July 15, 2006, 11:02:38 PM
Post by: sandbox on July 16, 2006, 12:51:44 AM
Affordable, economical and reliable AWD. One of the best snow vehicles, which can be demonstrated by their high volume sales in ski areas around the world.
http://www.subaru-global.com/about/history/
Post by: Al on July 16, 2006, 01:14:22 AM
IAWSB, Subarus gotta be one of the best for snow or any serious weather related conditions for a sedan, stationwagon or small SUV. I think the model is a Outback or Forester.
Or try one of these spiffy new Toyota FJ's!
The reviews I have read and seen on these are stellar.
Just make sure what ever you choose has limited slip differential front and rear axles or at the very least a full locker in the rear.
Post by: krissel on July 16, 2006, 01:50:43 AM
One thing to check is whether the manufacturer demands that the vehicle undergoes the 'recommended' or 'required' mileage tuneups in order to maintain the warranty. I found a few fine print items which would end up costing an awful lot in reading through some of the manufacturers' booklets. My sister is being taken for a ride with all the 'required' maintenance routines. I'm not sure she needs them or not as I don't know what Subaru really demands. Her dealer has her convinced she needs to do so.
As to braking, make sure the vehicle has ABS and possibly vehicle stability drive which both add to keeping it under control in all weather conditions.
You might go to someplace like Edmunds.com and search for threads that discuss driving in snow. Nothing like getting it from those who slog through the white stuff a lot..
Post by: Al on July 16, 2006, 04:14:12 AM
A lot less..... Glad I only really use it for recreation use.About the warrenty and scheduled maintenance, yes, you are required to do so to uphold the warrenty. But, you do not have to have the dealer service center do it. Have her go to a reputable garage that would cost less than the dealer and have them do it. Or in my case, I do it myself and then some. Also, make sure she keeps a maintenance log to prove to her dealer that she has been doing all the required maintenance in case any warrenty work needs to be done.
QUOTE(krissel @ Jul 15 2006, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The problem with the Subarus are that they are AWD all the time which really saps the mpg. My sister has an Outback and gets way lower mileage than I do with my Murano (on demand AWD) which is a heavier vehicle.
One thing to check is whether the manufacturer demands that the vehicle undergoes the 'recommended' or 'required' mileage tuneups in order to maintain the warranty. I found a few fine print items which would end up costing an awful lot in reading through some of the manufacturers' booklets. My sister is being taken for a ride with all the 'required' maintenance routines. I'm not sure she needs them or not as I don't know what Subaru really demands. Her dealer has her convinced she needs to do so.
One thing to check is whether the manufacturer demands that the vehicle undergoes the 'recommended' or 'required' mileage tuneups in order to maintain the warranty. I found a few fine print items which would end up costing an awful lot in reading through some of the manufacturers' booklets. My sister is being taken for a ride with all the 'required' maintenance routines. I'm not sure she needs them or not as I don't know what Subaru really demands. Her dealer has her convinced she needs to do so.
Back on subject. Sorry.
AWD does not necessarily mean that you will still get traction to all four tires all the time. Even if you have limited slip differentials, it does still slip and will eventually give way to the tire with the least amount of traction. This is where there is a big difference between open diffs (planetary gears), limited slip and a full locking differential. What is nice about todays cars is the good ones have computer controlled differentials and drivetrains (traction control) where the computer will do the thinking and direct power to the tire/s with the most traction. Nice feature.
Here's a great example of how active traction control can work wonders.
http://www.toyota.com/fjcruiser/specs.html
Go to active traction control and click on the link for "click here to see A-TRAC in action"
Post by: sandbox on July 16, 2006, 07:06:59 AM
2007 Subaru Impreza AWD
EPA Fuel Economy
Fuel Type
Regular Gasoline
MPG (city)
23
MPG (highway)
28
MPG (combined)
25
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
2006 Nissan Murano AWD
EPA Fuel Economy
Fuel Type
Regular Gasoline
MPG (city)
19
MPG (highway)
24
MPG (combined)
21
Kris a friend has one and she has the local shop pick it up from her office for scheduled maintenance.
QUOTE
Your Maintenance Responsibilities
It is your responsibility to have all scheduled inspection and maintenance services performed at the times and mileages recommended at the back of this booklet and to retain proof that inspection and maintenance services are performed when recommended. One method of proof is for you to have each maintenance service record contained in this Booklet validated at the proper time or mileage by the Authorized SUBARU Dealer or other service facility performing the service. You are also responsible for checking such items as fluid levels and tire pressures regularly.
It is your responsibility to have all scheduled inspection and maintenance services performed at the times and mileages recommended at the back of this booklet and to retain proof that inspection and maintenance services are performed when recommended. One method of proof is for you to have each maintenance service record contained in this Booklet validated at the proper time or mileage by the Authorized SUBARU Dealer or other service facility performing the service. You are also responsible for checking such items as fluid levels and tire pressures regularly.
http://www.subaru.com/owners/warranty/index.jsp
cars101 http://www.cars101.com/
Post by: jcarter on July 16, 2006, 07:23:01 AM
It gets 17 MPG. We dont use it all the time around our little town, use our Fords mostly.
But its great for trips or taking a load of grandkids and dogs on a venture to Maine, and tow a boat trailer too..
I would not suggest the GMC for a commuter vehicle however, its too big. My brother said it has its own zip code. He drives a Toyota 4WD pickup, and that is a very versitile truck.
Lots of my friends have the Toyota Highlanders and love them for all driving situations. One of our kids works for Toyota and they are all good cars, except the new hybrids require lots of maintenance.
My brother has a Cobra, which I hate!
Jane
Post by: RHPConsult on July 16, 2006, 08:58:47 AM
QUOTE(jcarter @ Jul 16 2006, 05:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would not suggest the GMC for a commuter vehicle however, its too big. My brother said it has its own zip code.
Your brother has a way with words, Jane, which I plan, enthusiastically, to appropriate, since we have some friends who have loved their succession of Surburbans, almost beyond reason. I can hardly wait . . . 
Post by: kbeartx on July 16, 2006, 09:04:36 AM
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Jul 15 2006, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
She is a novice at snow-driving.
IMO, experience driving in slippery stuff is the only way to make her a safe driver in such conditions.
The type of car is of much less importance.
That said, having grown up in the NYC suburbs and gone to college near Boston, I have a LOT of personal experience driving on slippery surfaces, and I prefer the dynamics of a small, front-wheel-drive vehicle [Honda, for example] in which the engine [hence most of the weight] is right over the drive wheels.
- KB
Post by: jcarter on July 16, 2006, 09:11:02 AM
But it sure serves its purpose for this family. Having other vehicles for ordinary or daily use is the way to go. We have friends who feel the need to purchase a new car when ever they want one, and that gets really expensive. We prefer to own and maintain older cars, thus able to have more than one. Also, the newer a car is, the more difficult to service them yourself.
Being retired reduces the need for the newer fancier ones too.
Gotta have something to carry the bikes, kayaks, canoes, tow the trailers, and all the other stuff though.
Jane
Quick edit to add, Our kids in Boston have a Honda accord, its just perfect for them, and theyve got the good public transportation in the city too.
Post by: bil207 on July 16, 2006, 09:32:27 AM
One thing that most people over look is the importance of a really good set (4) of winter (not all-weather) tires, even on non- awd vehicles for maximum accelerating, steering and braking traction on snow and ice covered roads.
Post by: swhitset on July 16, 2006, 09:38:46 AM
I drive an '05 4WD Dodge Ram Quad cab. My wife drives an older Buick Century Limited with FWD. Neither one of us has much trouble in the winter. I only have the truck to pull a boat, otherwise I would get a more economical FWD car.
I want to stress that good all weather tires is most important. If you have a car with low profile sport tires, a set of snow tires are in order.
Steve
Post by: weldiger on July 16, 2006, 09:39:49 AM
I have driven in North and South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, Illinois, Kansas, Missouri, and Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina. Also in several 'southern states' where snow and ice are rare. Two wheel conventional drive, with 200 # of sand over each rear wheel. Numerous front wheel drive, and Subaru AWD.
I have been stuck in snow with every other vehicle I have ever owned or leased. I have my second Subaru, and have yet to be stuck with either one. In the mountains of WNC where I have been for the past 23 years, there are almost as many Subarus, as any other make. They don't usually last much more than 15 years, as they rust out from all the salt on the roads.
However with 16" wheels, 4 wheel disk brakes, ABS, very responsive power steering, and 4 speed automatic transmission, I feel safe & comfortable driving. Mileage in the mountains is nothing to shout about, 24-28 actual. But I can go as far as I want to drive without stopping, on a tank of gas. So I am fairly well satisfied.
Post by: kps on July 16, 2006, 10:55:34 AM
Al mentioned the differential in FWD/AWD vehicles. FWD without a limited slip diff is useless. Computer controlled diffs I'm not familiar with. My Ford F150 in FWD has great traction and plows through anything.
Steve mentioned the other point. The driver is the key. For decades people did fine with rear-wheel drive, no ABS, no big SUVs and no fancy tires. A light foot and gentle steering will get you through any snow...unless you're a rally driver and comfortable going through curves sideways.
You will also be surprised how much actual traction you can have on a snow packed road when it's cold enough with 'dry' snow. Problems arise when when you get 'wet' snow with warn/cold cycling of the weather. Cold tires on hard packed snow at -20 my comfort zone is 60-70 miles per hour...and that's in a tractor-trailer with no ABS, no FWD and a wagon that could easily slap me "behind-the-ear".
But do get your lady a decent AWD or on demand FWD wehicle for her comfort and safety. Every bit counts.
Post by: daryl66 on July 16, 2006, 11:55:08 AM
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Jul 15 2006, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Milady is looking at a job in Wisconsin and she will need wheels.
The area she is looking at apparently has unplowed packed snowy streets during a significant part of the winter.
The area she is looking at apparently has unplowed packed snowy streets during a significant part of the winter.
All of the replies are valid. In north Idaho we have to deal with snow and ice quite a bit plus living on a big hill makes winter driving exciting, especially for "her" who was born and raised in South Alabama. We have had a front wheel drive Mazda, a Toyota 4 runner and currently a Nisson xterra. All worked fine. Our neighbors even put on studded tires which are legal here. The key is driving within your (HER)limits. I have not seen anthing on the posts relating to price. The high end Toyota's ( Land cruiser, 4 runner) are VERY expensive. Up to 50-60K on the high end. Nisson xterra can be had for 23-30K. Suburu falls inbetween. The AWD and 4WD would fall into personal preference. I personally like 4WD with a transfer case. Most female drives I know perfer the auto AWD. Now with that and 5 bucks you can aget a cuppa Starbucks at most anyplace but an airport
Good shopping.
Daryl
Post by: jcarter on July 16, 2006, 01:12:55 PM
$60,700! Wow, thats more than what most of the boats being put in at the launching ramp cost!
Anyway, we were driving our older Ford F-150 4WD, and didn't even have our boat with us today.
I think that the words "want" and "need" get mixed up nowadays.
Jane
Post by: Paddy on July 16, 2006, 01:20:46 PM
Post by: Gregg on July 16, 2006, 01:39:14 PM
No holes in the body or floorboard.
Heater works.
Post by: Johanbgoot on July 16, 2006, 07:10:22 PM
If snow and ice are regular conditions, go for and AWD.
Post by: jcarter on July 16, 2006, 07:23:50 PM
Also, we rent Suburu's when on vacation, and have had very good luck with them, enough so that we perhaps would consider a purchase. They are highly regarded in our family too.
Great advice! Thank you,
Jane
Post by: Epaminondas on July 16, 2006, 11:52:34 PM
The man and his machine would go
Oh, the secrets that old car would know . . .
_________________________________________
Thanks, All!
Much good information.
I came away from reading the thread, above, with the understanding that Milady needs to seriously look at Subarus.
Milady came away from reading the thread, above, with the understanding that the car you drive doesn't matter, it's how you drive it. Plus the concept that snow tires sound like a good idea.
Funny how two different people look at the exact same material and pick up on such different things.
So - we've been up to our ears in car stuff most of the day - plus keeping an eye on this thread as it grew.
Consumer Reports.
Gillis' "The Car Book."
The web site of the Insurance Institute for Highway safety.
Epinions.com.
Edmunds.com.
After directing Milady to the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety's report "The Risk of Dying in One Vehicle Versus Another," she has become interested in the Toyota RAV4 - the fifth overall safest car in the US. Seems that she wasn't interested in buying a new Mercedes Class E for some odd reason (the number one safe car on the list). Anyone know anything about the Toyota RAV4? I never heard of it before.
That safety article is an interesting read. Did you know that you have a thirty times greater chance of dying when driving the most dangerous car in America - a Chevrolet Blazer 2-wheel drive SUV - compared to the safest car available?
Quite the eye opener.
http://www.iihs.org/sr/2005.html
(Status Report, Vol. 40, No. 3, March 19, 2005)
I then directed her to another report on the same web page - "Institute announces Top Safety Picks: 10 winners, all 2006 models" - and she got interested in Subarus, again!
(Status Report, Vol. 40, No. 10, December 17, 2005)
Consumer Reports, April 2006, recommends the Subaru Forester over the Toyota RAV4. Hmmm . . .
According to another article - just out in June - Electronic Stability Control prevents as many as one third of fatal accidents (SUV or regular car). Plus 80% of SUV rollovers. It looks like ESC is available throughout the entire Toyota line. ESC is not available on the Subaru Forester - drat - it is only available on the Subaru Outback and the Subaru B9 Tribeca.
Status Report, Vol. 41, No. 5
http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr061306.html
2006 ESC Equipped Vehicles:
http://www.safercar.gov/pages/ESC-EquippedVehicles-2006.html
Hmmm . . . looks like the Toyota RAV4 also has some variation on all wheel drive . . .
Looks like it is getting down to the Subaru Outback vs. the Toyota RAV4.
Any thoughts of comparisons between the two?
Oh - we'll be calling the automoble insurance company to get any list they might have on reducing insurance costs - anti-theft gear, defensive driving school, whatever.
A set of snow tires sounds real good to both of us.
I am thinking that front wheel drive with Electronic Stability Control might be sufficient for the kind of driving she'll be doing - she might not really need AWD/4WD. But ESC looks to be more important than I realized.
But it will be her choice - we'll see.
Oh - any suggestions on color?
She is thinking lighter over darker for visibility - sounds good to me - but I am thinking that all that may be reversed up Nawth.
Thank, again,
Epaminondas
________________________________________________
Watched him comin' up Winslow
Down South Park Boulevard
Lookin' good from tail to hood
Great big fins and painted steel
Man, it looked just like the Batmobile
With my old man behind the wheel
Well, you could hardly even see him
In all of that chrome
The man with a plan and a pocket comb
But every night it carried him home
And I could hear him sayin'
Don't you give me no Buick
Girl, you must take my word
If there's a God up in Heaven
He's got a silver Thunderbird
You can keep your El Dorado
Man, the foreign car's absurd
Me, I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird
He got up every morning
While I was still asleep
I remember the sound
Of him shufflin' around
Right before the crack of dawn
Is when I heard him turn
His motor on
And when I got up they were gone
Down the road in the rain and snow
The man and his machine would go
Oh, the secrets that old car would know
Sometimes I hear him sayin'
Don't you give me no Buick
Girl, you must take my word
If there's a God up in Heaven
He's got a silver Thunderbird
You can keep your El Dorado
Man, the foreign car's absurd
Me, I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird
Down the road in the rain and snow
The man and his machine would go
Oh, the secrets that old car would know
Sometimes I hear him sayin'
Don't you give me no Buick
Girl, you must take my word
If there's a God up in Heaven
He's got a silver Thunderbird
You can keep your El Dorado
Man, the foreign car's absurd
Me, I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird
Oh, Me I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird
Silver Thunderbird
Marc Cohn
1990
Post by: sandbox on July 17, 2006, 04:02:38 AM
I have hit many a white car buried under a snow bank with my plow.
Black is hard to keep clean in wet snow/salt/sand conditions/ what's the color of the mud on your car? In Georgia it's red........ so red cars are easier to keep clean if you live in Dahlonega Ga. around the foot of the Appalachian mountain trail. I'll bet in the coal fields a W. Virginia dirt get grayish. Earth colors are preferable. Keeping it clean = time & water.
The L.L. Bean addition is nicely equipped.
Moving on........ noise levels is an issue from manufacturer to manufacturer. "Listen to the road noise" Open wagons may seem louder than a sedan, snow tires are louder than standard issues.
On to tires...... a good set of All weather tires is all you'll need if issued by the manufacturer. If your doing at lot of off the road driving in deep snow then season swapping is a good idea. If you live in an area the has a lot of Black Ice, studs work well. If your crossing mountain passes in the US, some require chains. I run Michelins on my Cages and Dunlop's on my bikes.
Rear window wipers with defoggers are preferred
Interior comforts, hip & shoulder room is an issue in smaller vehicles. Can she reach the peddles,radio, mirror?
Drive a lot of vehicle, test drive some upscale units in the same size to set some bench marks, after all It's the Ride that matters.....
.....and the comfort and convenience of hour upon hour of redundant driving that will make or break a days end report. If wifey gets out of her car at the end of the day in discomfort, brought on by seating position or unnecessary driving fatigue, all your research would have been for not.
other issue: Residual value, length of ownership, marketability, own...... lease ....insurance cost....
Safety is important but buying a car for it's safety alone is not a good idea. They're all safe, really. The conditions of the roads, law enforcement, average age of drivers, or locations of bars is a study that would produce a better safety report. IMO
Happy Trails
Post by: jcarter on July 17, 2006, 07:17:42 AM
http://www.chuckberry.com/music/lyrics.html#maybellene
Jane
Post by: amaizen_aristotle on July 17, 2006, 08:45:36 AM
As for snow tires, I would highly recommend them. They make a huge difference and would be money very well spent. Blizzaks are especially good, though other makes are good as well. The following article at Car and Driver might be worth a read. This magazine is considered one of the premier in the auto world, and I generally agree with their opinions (when I am able to drive the cars that they review -- my access to Ferraris and Porsches and such is limited!).
http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/3467/t...ing-column.html
Hope this helps,
AA
Post by: bil207 on July 17, 2006, 09:44:54 AM
QUOTE
As for snow tires, I would highly recommend them. They make a huge difference and would be money very well spent. Blizzaks are especially good, though other makes are good as well. The following article at Car and Driver might be worth a read. This magazine is considered one of the premier in the auto world, and I generally agree with their opinions (when I am able to drive the cars that they review -- my access to Ferraris and Porsches and such is limited!).
I whole heartily agree and have Bridgestone Blizzaks on my Honda.
In winter I do quite a bit of driving in Northern New York's Adirondack Mountains and there is a noticable increase in stopping and handling ability as well as acceleration traction on snow, sleet and ice covered roads compared to the stock all seasons.
Post by: Epaminondas on July 17, 2006, 11:58:29 AM
One thing that is helpful is the existence of significantly different opinions. Not necessarily any one "right" answer. Milady will see what experienced people think, focus on her areas of interest, and make her own decisions.
Oh - I survived a number of Toledo winters driving a Gremlin (fathers can be cruel - the Oedipal Complex swings both ways). Rear wheel drive with 70% of the weight of the car on the front and 30% on the back. Standard tires. I learned to routinely rock my car out of parking places (I thought that was normal) and routinely performed controlled skids through turns - my car and I were as one.
So I'll probably be fine whatever I drive. I have the experience.
But Milady has relatively little driving experience - it's a different situation.
I originally trained her to drive, myself - on a video game machine at a video arcade - it was called "Death Race 2000."
She actually got to be pretty good at it.
Come to think of it - maybe a defensive driving brush-up would be helpful for her, after all.
I just came up with a few more tidbits last night - plus some thoughts:
(1) The Subaru Forester has an approximately four times higher death rate when compared to the Toyota RAV4.
That may seem unimportant to many - it is certainly not important to Consumer Reports.
But I've only got one girl.
Whether or not it is important to her is her call.
(2) The Toyota RAV4 has some weird sort of 4WD/AWD set-up where it primarily powers the front wheels unless the back wheels are needed. Apparently something of a next-generation electronic stability control. We'll probably stop by a dealer this week and learn more.
(3) As long as whatever car she gets has some form of ESC with some form of traction control, I am for it. I'll give her all the safety information I can, since my primary interest is in her safety - but she is the one who will have to balance safety against comfort and style and price. This will be her baby - she will be the one paying for the machine. But she has never dealt with the American car-buying system before - I'll be giving her a little guidance there - i.e., no extended warranties, etc., etc., etc..
(4) Sounds like we might want to visit a Honda dealership, as well. I'll need to look at safety/ESC/traction control info.
(5) The specific snow tire recommendations are greatly appreciated. This may also impact housing - we may need room to store an extra set of tires (or two).
Thanks, again,
Epaminondas
_____________
Standin' on side of the highway 4 exit
A lady in tie die, a bag by her side
Not really lookin' like anything special
Saw Tennessee tags and she waved for a ride
Sat right beside me as the meter hit sixty
Explainin' her travels and her family background
When she got through I could not help but thinkin'
She's a long way from a West Nashville grand ballroom gown . . .
. . . Six hours later we hit Cincinnati
Yawning she woke and asked where we were
When she found out she said "I must be going"
This close to Nashville was too close for her.
So I stopped by the roadside and I gave her five dollars
She took it then kissed me and gave me a note
She told me just to read it then mail it in Nashville
On old loose leaf paper to her mother she wrote . . .
West Nashville Grand Ballroom Gown
Jimmy Buffett
1974
Post by: Highmac on July 17, 2006, 12:13:24 PM
Post by: RHPConsult on July 17, 2006, 12:34:31 PM
QUOTE
I originally trained her to drive, myself - on a video game machine at a video arcade - it was called "Death Race 2000."
Uhhh . . .ummm . . . at what speeds: Fast, Incredibly Fast and Light?
Post by: Epaminondas on July 17, 2006, 01:34:35 PM
Death rates compared to the Toyota RAV4 (RAV4 = 1):
Toyota Corolla - 5.1 X the death rate of the RAV4
Toyota Camry - 3.1
Toyota Avalon - 2.5
Honda Civic - 3.7
Honda Accord - 3.2
Honda CR-V - I cannot find this information
Subaru Forester - 3.9
Chevrolet Blazer 2dr - 17 X the death rate of the RAV4
______________________________________________________________
QUOTE
As far as training is concerned, have you got a skidpan anywhere near you... something like this? Or is that what you call a defensive driving school anyway?
I have never seen the skidpan training - looks like it might be a good idea.
I trained skidding for snow on a deserted snow and ice-filled movie theatre parking lot until I got pretty good at it. More formal training might be a good idea, but I suspect it would be pretty expensive.
"Defensive driving," as I was trained, involves assuming that the other person may make a mistake - so give the other guy lots of room and lots of leeway. Drive predictably and non-aggressively. In other words - the opposite of what you see in Poland.
QUOTE
Attention – Residents of Wisconsin (eastern MN, northwestern IA, northern IL)
QUOTE
I originally trained her to drive, myself - on a video game machine at a video arcade - it was called "Death Race 2000."
Uhhh . . .ummm . . . at what speeds: Fast, Incredibly Fast and Light?
QUOTE
I originally trained her to drive, myself - on a video game machine at a video arcade - it was called "Death Race 2000."
Uhhh . . .ummm . . . at what speeds: Fast, Incredibly Fast and Light?
Death Race 2000 works best if you maintain the pedal to the metal.
I don't recollect there being a brake pedal.
It made teaching her to drive so much simpler.
I explained to her that my philosophy of driving is: "Other people don't like to have accidents."
First thing I did when I got her in the driving seat of a real car was to deflect all those nasty distracting mirrors:
"What you can't see can't hurt you."
I can't understand why she seems so timid about driving . . .
Best regards,
Epaminondas
Post by: Highmac on July 17, 2006, 05:21:07 PM
QUOTE
Euro NCAP provides motoring consumers with a realistic and independent assessment of the safety performance of some of the most popular cars sold in Europe. Established in 1997 and now backed by five European Governments, the European Commission and motoring and consumer organisations in every EU country...
Click on "How Safe is your Car?" and pick your category.
Honda CR-V fares well
Post by: jcarter on July 17, 2006, 07:04:24 PM
Do you drive at night? Or do you do most of your driving early in the day.
Different conditions to factor in, night is dangerous due to people becoming more erratic.
Early morning, due to cold surfaces. Mid-day, perhaps more traffic?
I prefer early morning to mid-day.
These are interesting statistics, but are not readily available.
I admit I hate late night driving, from 10 to 0200.
Jane
Post by: underdog on July 18, 2006, 06:26:55 AM
Post by: krissel on July 18, 2006, 06:37:58 AM
The Toyota Rav4 for 2006 is a new model. Much of the safety/death rates you are seeing is not for this particular design. Theoretically the new build is larger and possibly safer but that is an unknown. I considered the RAv4 when i was looking last year but passed on it for two reasons, the size then was no bigger overall than my Celica, believe it or not. And the side opening rear gate was just plain unusable. I was disappointed because I had been a Toyota owner for 19 years. The new model is larger but still has that dumb rear gate design.
The electronic AWD that the Rav4 has is the 'on demand' kind that senses when it is needed and kicks in. Electronic stability control is a different animal so don't confuse the two.
Despite the MPG specs that sandbox listed earlier, I get 22 mpg average using regular with my Murano (6 cyl) while my sister only gets around 19 mpg using super (which she shouldn't) in a 4 cyl Outback. It's real world usage that counts, not company figures.
And thanks for the info on the Subarus warranty. I guess she has to follow their regulations. My warranty isn't dependent on required/certified manintenance.
Probably the most important thing is to test drive the vehicle on various roads and under differing conditions if possible. That can make or break a choice. One of the little things that helped sell me on my car was the adjustable foot pedals, since my legs are short compared to my upper torso. Having the ability to move the brake and gas pedals up closer makes driving so much more comfortable and much, much safer.
But most of of all, the greatest determiner of mpg and safety is the driver. No car is perfect and you will have to give in one area to get what you want in another. And depressingly, no matter how safe the driver and the car, there are some roads and conditions that just should be avoided. Period.
Post by: sandbox on July 18, 2006, 09:26:16 AM
QUOTE
No one has mentioned the Jaguar 3.0 X-Type. It is all wheel drive. Has side air bags. Good gas milage. would be a great commuter car. Very comfortable and responsive and fun. Four year bumper to bumper warranty, includeing normal maintainance. I live and drive here in the Catskill Mts.
Underdog, I didn't mention many vehicles for price purposes....... or
friends own a Hyundai Santa fe who really like it, but it has one of those warranties that Kris spoke of. http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/santafe/santafe.aspx
The VW Passat, a vehicle I drove is nice but a 4x4 starts @ $30 grand.
The Saturn's are Nice, with good numbers but I think a bit costly.
A nicely appointed Jag, built on a Ford Taurus frame is pretty spendy and has low crash ratings and residual values.
The Kia or Suzuki's are cute, inexpensive to purchase and operate but they would come in second in any crash situation.
I was also an Audi fan the Quantro was state of the art in it's day, but living in Florida doesn't require 4x4's and living in a small community doesn't even require a car, though we have a few. I'm looking forward to the day when I could leave the car driving to someone else and just walk, bike, scoot or shuttle to anywhere i need to.
QUOTE(krissel @ Jul 18 2006, 07:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Some things to consider:
The Toyota Rav4 for 2006 is a new model. Much of the safety/death rates you are seeing is not for this particular design. Theoretically the new build is larger and possibly safer but that is an unknown. I considered the RAv4 when i was looking last year but passed on it for two reasons, the size then was no bigger overall than my Celica, believe it or not. And the side opening rear gate was just plain unusable. I was disappointed because I had been a Toyota owner for 19 years. The new model is larger but still has that dumb rear gate design.
The electronic AWD that the Rav4 has is the 'on demand' kind that senses when it is needed and kicks in. Electronic stability control is a different animal so don't confuse the two.
Despite the MPG specs that sandbox listed earlier, I get 22 mpg average using regular with my Murano (6 cyl) while my sisterer only gets around 19 mpg using super (which she shouldn't) in a 4 cyl Outback. It's real world usage that counts, not company figures.
And thanks for the info on the Subarus warranty. I guess she has to follow their regulations. My warranty isn't dependent on required/certified manintenance.
Probably the most important thing is to test drive the vehicle on various roads and under differing conditions if possible. That can make or break a choice. One of the little things that helped sell me on my car was the adjustable foot pedals, since my legs are short compared to my upper torso. Having the ability to move the brake and gas pedals up closer makes driving so much more comfortable and much, much safer.
But most of of all, the greatest determiner of mpg and safety is the driver. No car is perfect and you will have to give in one area to get what you want in another. And depressingly, no matter how safe the driver and the car, there are some roads and conditions that just should be avoided. Period.
The Toyota Rav4 for 2006 is a new model. Much of the safety/death rates you are seeing is not for this particular design. Theoretically the new build is larger and possibly safer but that is an unknown. I considered the RAv4 when i was looking last year but passed on it for two reasons, the size then was no bigger overall than my Celica, believe it or not. And the side opening rear gate was just plain unusable. I was disappointed because I had been a Toyota owner for 19 years. The new model is larger but still has that dumb rear gate design.
The electronic AWD that the Rav4 has is the 'on demand' kind that senses when it is needed and kicks in. Electronic stability control is a different animal so don't confuse the two.
Despite the MPG specs that sandbox listed earlier, I get 22 mpg average using regular with my Murano (6 cyl) while my sisterer only gets around 19 mpg using super (which she shouldn't) in a 4 cyl Outback. It's real world usage that counts, not company figures.
And thanks for the info on the Subarus warranty. I guess she has to follow their regulations. My warranty isn't dependent on required/certified manintenance.
Probably the most important thing is to test drive the vehicle on various roads and under differing conditions if possible. That can make or break a choice. One of the little things that helped sell me on my car was the adjustable foot pedals, since my legs are short compared to my upper torso. Having the ability to move the brake and gas pedals up closer makes driving so much more comfortable and much, much safer.
But most of of all, the greatest determiner of mpg and safety is the driver. No car is perfect and you will have to give in one area to get what you want in another. And depressingly, no matter how safe the driver and the car, there are some roads and conditions that just should be avoided. Period.
Kris using High test is not a good idea on a low compression motor, it will run to cold and get bad mileage. Octane slows down the burning process. Driving style has a bearing on the result, and the link is to a gov spec site avoiding the company lean.
Post by: Al on July 18, 2006, 11:36:01 AM
QUOTE(krissel @ Jul 18 2006, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And thanks for the info on the Subarus warranty. I guess she has to follow their regulations. My warranty isn't dependent on required/certified manintenance.
I'm in question here, sorry. Does that mean your Murano can skip the required oil change intervals and still be covered under warrenty if it loses a crankshaft bearing? I do not believe that the work needs to be done by a certified mechanic for maintenance cause people do there own work. Just proper records should be kept.
If your sister is getting bad or unsatisfactory treatment from that Subaru dealer, see if she can take it to another dealer. I've heard stories of different dealers having different attitudes.
I know what you mean about real world driving for gas mileage, Kris. Advertised is one thing, but, after the engineers tweak the ECU for production can be a totally different situation. If your sister isn't getting the correct gas mileage as advertised it will probably be due to one of two things. Her driving habits or the car running too rich from the factory either by the ECU or by a sensor that is reading incorrectly. If the later, see if the service center can flash her ECU to the latest software, usually that would have updates to any bugs from the previous version and remapped fuel and timing curves. This is what happened to my wifes Mazda 6, we bought the 4 cylinder model to save on gas, but only got 2 to 3 miles per gallon more than the V6 model. Just under 20 MPG. Huh? Not good! I was reading on a M6 site that that model 6 had been mapped rich from the factory giving it lousy gas mileage and that there is an update to my ECU's programming. I did two things, had the service center update to the newest version of the software and added a transmission cooler. We actually get near 24 MPG combined driving now for a vehicle that weighs in at 3600 lbs.
Post by: Epaminondas on July 18, 2006, 12:03:28 PM
Questions:
(1) Anybody know how to get ahold of your free yearly credit rating?
I don't want her to go through a data-gathering intermediary - just directly to the credit agencies , themselves. Preferably via telephone - not via the Web.
(2) Quiet is important to me - more so to me than to Milady.
Are any of these AWD or other good Winter vehicles much quieter than others?
As you go up the trim levels within various models - from base to the more expensive trim level - do they get any quieter (any more sound insulation and such?)
(3) Toyota, Subaru, and Nissan remain in the running. Maybe Honda, as well - I'm not sure. Still open to ideas.
We're off to look at cars, today.
Thanks, again,
Epaminondas
Post by: gunug on July 18, 2006, 12:04:42 PM
QUOTE
Rear wheel drive with 70% of the weight of the car on the front and 30% on the back. Standard tires. I learned to routinely rock my car out of parking places (I thought that was normal) and routinely performed controlled skids through turns - my car and I were as one.
I had a Chevy Corvair for a couple of rough winters and with the engine in the rear it was like ice skating through the ice and snow. "Lotsa fun, yu betcha!"
Post by: bil207 on July 18, 2006, 12:27:50 PM
QUOTE
(1) Anybody know how to get ahold of your free yearly credit rating?
I don't want her to go through a data-gathering intermediary - just directly to the credit agencies , themselves. Preferably via telephone - not via the Web.
I don't want her to go through a data-gathering intermediary - just directly to the credit agencies , themselves. Preferably via telephone - not via the Web.
The Federal Trade Commission has info.(including phone #)on getting your free annual credit report here.
Post by: RHPConsult on July 18, 2006, 12:31:12 PM
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Jul 18 2006, 10:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(1) Anybody know how to get ahold of your free yearly credit rating?
I don't want her to go through a data-gathering intermediary - just directly to the credit agencies , themselves. Preferably via telephone - not via the Web.
I don't want her to go through a data-gathering intermediary - just directly to the credit agencies , themselves. Preferably via telephone - not via the Web.
As I understand, each of the 3 recognized credit reporting agencies now are required by the FTC to provide you one of their reports on you (her) annually (so, presumably corrections of errors can be made), but that to get "their" score you have to pay a small fee. I think that's the way it works.
I checked the FTC's web site only to encounter an 88 page (pdf) "summary" to Fair Credit Reporting Act. Probably briefly summarized by a summer intern from Yale Law!!!!
Check your e-mail.
If memory serves, the "agencies" have agreed to calculate the "credit score" by some means so that the same result (arithmetically) is produced. Further, one or more have changed their corporate names recently. A web search should be productive. The point is, one can contact them directly . . . hoping that Mujibor doesn't work there . . . yet.
The telephone, for "their" report? I doubt it. Too labor intensive, I would surmise, for a "free" product.
Good luck.
Post by: Al on July 18, 2006, 12:37:38 PM
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Jul 18 2006, 07:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey - we're gettin' somewhere!
We're off to look at cars, today.
Thanks, again,
Epaminondas
We're off to look at cars, today.
Thanks, again,
Epaminondas
Wow! cool....... Have fun!
Post by: Al on July 18, 2006, 12:42:42 PM
What year is your Suburban? My full sized Blazer is a 1990 and is built off the same chassis/suspension as the Suburban, but, shorter. Much shorter....lol
Post by: sandbox on July 18, 2006, 02:22:59 PM
Edmonds rates it high!!
here a list of all SUV's http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/...e/attribute=suv
Post by: Jack W on July 18, 2006, 03:09:33 PM
We have gotten overall avg of 24 mpg for the first 47,000 miles..
We got around 29 mpg coming back to oHIo from AZ back in April. Of course, we had a strong tailwind! YMMV.
Jack
Post by: jcarter on July 18, 2006, 03:39:06 PM
Also have a '79 classic blue F-150 that is still running up in Maine, sans decent brakes.
Have to head it up the hill to stop.
All our vehicles have 'essence of wet dog', the smell that will never go away, perhaps thats why we never sell our used cars, we always give them away.
Oh, Ive been meaning to ask you how you get that info in the little box under the message, how you know I using a Mac, ISP being Adelphia.net, and whether Im using Firefox or Safari? The IP address is wrong however.
Thats very interesting.
Jane
Post by: swhitset on July 18, 2006, 03:46:46 PM
Steve
Post by: jcarter on July 18, 2006, 03:55:22 PM
Its interesting, as when Ive got system profiler going, not the router addresses, but the one with the lower numbers, the one which is called, the "DNS Servers" both of them are very different from the one in Al's text box.
Also, how does he do this?
Jane
edit;add,,,,,,,,,Also on my other Mac, Al's text box gives the same public IP address, would both my Macs be the same?
Post by: jepinto on July 18, 2006, 03:56:31 PM
QUOTE
Oh, Ive been meaning to ask you how you get that info in the little box under the message, how you know I using a Mac, ISP being Adelphia.net, and whether Im using Firefox or Safari? The IP address is wrong however.
Thats very interesting.
Thats very interesting.
Jane: Go to http://danasoft.com/
QUOTE
When you view the sign, you will see your IP address and computer info. When others view the sign, they will see THEIR information. Try it, ask a friend to visit danasoft.com. They won't see your IP, they will see their IP. Your information is never shown to others. This is always true, no matter where the Danasoft sign appears (within web pages, emails, etc).
Whenever you visit a website, your IP address is automatically broadcast to that site, and it's even broadcast to those sites that you don't visit when you load a website that contains images that are hosted by a third party, such as advertisements. When you load the Danasoft signature from a webpage, your IP address is automatically broadcast to us, just like any other site. Danasoft.com does not "hack" your computer to obtain your IP address. One of the purposes of the sign, besides for fun and amusement, is to spread awareness that your IP and other computer information is known to every website that you visit. If that concerns you, there are software programs available to mask your IP and other information when you surf the web, search Google for those.
Danasoft.com doesn't log the IP addresses of people that view our signature graphics - we simply host the custom signatures. When a request comes in to display a signature, our software creates the sign "on-the-fly", and displays the viewer's IP and other computer info on the sign. Our software draws a new sign for every single person that views it.
The Danasoft.com signature graphic is not a website statistics tool. It cannot be used to tell you who is visiting your website because we do not provide that service, and as mentioned above, we don't even know who is viewing the signs since we don't log that information.
Whenever you visit a website, your IP address is automatically broadcast to that site, and it's even broadcast to those sites that you don't visit when you load a website that contains images that are hosted by a third party, such as advertisements. When you load the Danasoft signature from a webpage, your IP address is automatically broadcast to us, just like any other site. Danasoft.com does not "hack" your computer to obtain your IP address. One of the purposes of the sign, besides for fun and amusement, is to spread awareness that your IP and other computer information is known to every website that you visit. If that concerns you, there are software programs available to mask your IP and other information when you surf the web, search Google for those.
Danasoft.com doesn't log the IP addresses of people that view our signature graphics - we simply host the custom signatures. When a request comes in to display a signature, our software creates the sign "on-the-fly", and displays the viewer's IP and other computer info on the sign. Our software draws a new sign for every single person that views it.
The Danasoft.com signature graphic is not a website statistics tool. It cannot be used to tell you who is visiting your website because we do not provide that service, and as mentioned above, we don't even know who is viewing the signs since we don't log that information.
Post by: jcarter on July 18, 2006, 04:07:38 PM
But it is strange that my DNS numbers are so different on Al's text bos and also on the danasoft site, than what I see in my System Profiler?
How would someone determine the correct one for their computers, if these are different?
Actually I don't care if anyone can see my IP address, just as long as it wont invite more spam.
Things like this are fun to see how they work.
Thanks,
Jane
Post by: swhitset on July 18, 2006, 04:13:16 PM
Routers use something called Network Address Translation (NAT) basically what this does is take 1 IP address from your ISP and makes its connection to the internet from that address. The Router then assigns a private address to each computer hooked up to it. Nobody outside your local network can see this address.... they only see your public address. From the point of view of your Mac your IP address is the private address with the router. However, your real address is the public address. If you want to see your public address you need to log onto the router's administration utility. Typically you do this by entering an address into a browser. The actual address varies by router brand... typically something like 192.168.x.x. Whenever you see an IP address that starts with 192.xxx or 10.xx... these are private address assigned to routers and are not publicly routable.
The DNS numbers you see in system profiler are the address to the DNS server your ISP is using. A DNS server is simply a place that keeps track of web sites and matches their names with their IP addresses. This is what makes the web work. When you type www.techsurvivors.net into a browser your browser goes to your DNS server to get the actual numeric address of Techsurvivors.
In other words the address you see at DANASOFT and on AL's posts are your Public IP address. The DNS numbers are different.
Steve
Post by: jcarter on July 18, 2006, 04:30:15 PM
I would love to learn more about this when summer is over,
Jane
Post by: Slugger Merna on July 18, 2006, 05:17:18 PM
Post by: Al on July 18, 2006, 06:47:49 PM
Nice trucks! Your suburban is of one generation newer than my 90 Blazer. That is a large large truck, lol!
Does the window in my sig say this IP?
67.22.194.146
That would be your WAN IP or how you connect your LAN to the internet. Most if not all LAN IPs should start with 192.168.*.* and your outside IP to your ISP would be something totally different.
Danasoft host the little script as Steve showed....And if signed up you can make your own little sentences on the bottom. I know Weldiger has this as well.
Back on subject! lol! Oops.....
I still like the Toyota FJ's those are so sweet!
Post by: jcarter on July 18, 2006, 07:12:50 PM
Yes, it reads 67.22.194.146, but thats not even close to what anything else is with System Profiler or what my classroom sites flash on when I post a picture or lesson.
I wonder if my router is so old that it is not reading out what should be.
But all the router addresses are OK.
But, as long as I can connect to my forums and classrooms, I need not worry?
This is fun to try to figure out, the ISP, the Mac, and the browser all seem OK.
Jane
Post by: RHPConsult on July 18, 2006, 07:55:44 PM
QUOTE(Slugger Merna @ Jul 18 2006, 02:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
how do i set a darn avatar on this board? i'd like to put up a picture
SluggerMerna:
In the 2d bar beneath the TS banner click on MYCONTROLS––>PERSONAL PROFILE––>EDIT AVATAR SETTINGS. Then insert the URL that will allow our server to find and publish (so to speak) your avatar from wherever you have lodged it.
Please follow these instructions in tweaking your "original":
QUOTE
Your avatar must be no bigger than 90 pixels by 90 pixels in size.
Uploaded avatars from your computer must be no larger than 50 KB.
The following file types are allowed: gif,jpg,jpeg,png
Uploaded avatars from your computer must be no larger than 50 KB.
The following file types are allowed: gif,jpg,jpeg,png
Post by: krissel on July 18, 2006, 08:01:53 PM
QUOTE(Slugger Merna @ Jul 18 2006, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
how do i set a darn avatar on this board? i'd like to put up a picture
to TS.Go into MY CONTROLS at the top of the page. Then on the left side go to EDIT AVATAR SETTINGS. If you have the URL of a picture you can put it in the box below. Just be sure to click the UPDATE AVATAR.
SB , yes, I know she shouldn't be using high octane but she was talked into it by someone along the line. And I 'm convinced her dealership is taking her for a ride. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of Subaru dealerships nearby. That's one of the reasons I passed on a Subaru as the nearest dealer is quite a distance away. If there had been one around the corner I would have given it a more serious consideration.
Oops, got to go, bad storm coming... more later.
Post by: jcarter on July 18, 2006, 08:22:10 PM
Some of the avitars here are really nice! Mine is just an old flower picture, used to have a picture of our dog.
T-storms coming here after a while, and Ive got fish to clean, so Im signing off now.
But you will love it here, and welcome, lots of fun.
Jane
Post by: Epaminondas on July 18, 2006, 08:52:19 PM
Milady is taking a nap.
I believe that she is plumb tuckered out.
____________________________________________
Question - anyone have any thoughts on quiet cars?
The only quiet car I see mentioned these days is the Lexus - and that is probably a bit too pricey for this situation.
____________________________________________________
Before going through our thoughts on the Toyotas and the Subarus, some replies to earlier posts:
QUOTE
European safety tests - might be worth putting them up against North American reports and see how they compare.
Thank you. I took a close look at the provided link.
It has been my impression over the years that crash tests are probably better than nothing but they are also pretty far disconnected from reality.
They're like giving an IQ test to a football player. Just because he has a high IQ does not mean that he is going to be a good football player.
Just because a car gets a good score on a crash test does not mean that it is safe car.
Crash tests as currently publicized appear to me to be designed and intended to conceal the safety differences between different sizes and classes of cars.
For example - you can take a subcompact car and take a large car and crash each against a wall and get similar safety data. But if you were to have a head-on crash between the same subcompact car and the same large car, survivability would be about six times greater in the large car than the small car.
While crash tests conceal the safety difference between small and large cars, insurance data demonstrates the safety differences between small and large cars loud and clear.
Another example: SUVS and safety. Frontal and side crash tests may show an SUV to be relatively safe - but around 40% of fatalities in SUVs are from rollover accidents, which have typically not been measured in crash testing.
Again, the crash tests conceal what the insurance data have long shown loud and clear.
Real world insurance data gives you a great reality check vs. the intentional obscuration of information via crash test data.
The problem with insurance data is the time delay factor - the real world insurance data will always be behind this year's model - great for guidance if you are buying used, but more limited if you are buying new.
But then again - crash test data tends to be limited to certain models or tends to be a year or two behind, as well.
Whatever the limitations, the insurance industry fatality data is much more real than the very artificial crash test data and it does show you real world trends.
__________________________________________________
QUOTE
No one has mentioned the Jaguar 3.0 X-Type.
Thank you for bringing it up. We had not considered a Jag.
I have long thought of Jags as beautiful sexy expensive cars of exceptionally poor build quality made in England.
It is obviously time to reconsider.
Let's do it:
A quick look at the 2006 Consumer Reports reveals a worse-than-average repair record on the X-type for three years running. The mini-review notes below average reliability, below average owner satisfaction, and average depreciation - and the review notes pronounced road noise.
Willis' car book (2005) notes very high repair costs, high owner complaint rates and very high insurance rates.
I cannot come up with Insurance Institute fatality data on the Jaguar X-type.
Milady values safety and reliability. I also value quiet, which is a harder one.
It looks like there may be better choices for us at this time.
_______________________________________________
QUOTE
did forget to mention the Saturn Vue...... very nice, and around $23 g's
Edmonds rates it high!!
Edmonds rates it high!!
Consumer Reports (April 2006) gives the Vue its worst reliability rating, a below average owner satisfaction rating and indicates that it has average depreciation:
"We found the AWD system slow to respond; the front wheels spun before the rear wheels engaged . . . the Vue received a Poor in the IIHS side-crash test. A tip-up in the government rollover test is also cause for concern." (particularly considering that the Vue does not have Electronic Stability Control - Epaminondas)
Willis' "The Car Book" (2005) gives the 2005 version an average overall rating.
I cannot find any Insurance Institute fatality information at this time. Historically, Saturns have had higher than average fatality rates compared to other cars.
I think there may be better choices for us at this time.
_______________________________________________
QUOTE
Jan & I really like our 2003 CR-V with real-time 4WD.
Sounds good - let's give it a shot:
Consumer Reports (April 2006) recommends the CR-V, indicating excellent reliability, above average owner satisfaction, and excellent depreciation. Looks good!
"Road noise is our only complaint." Uh-oh - this may be a deal-killer - quiet is a big priority for me.
Willis' "The Car Book" (2005) notes that the 2005 has high repair costs and a relatively poor warranty. It also notes average rollover despite a standard "roll stability system."
I cannot find any Insurance Institute fatality data on the CR-V. Every Honda I can find fatality data for scores better than average - so Honda does seem to be taking safety into account - though Honda does not seem to be an out-in-front leader when it comes to safety.
Not a bad choice.
We may take a look.
_______________________________________________
Nissan Murano:
Consumer Reports (2006): above average reliability, above average owner satisfaction, excellent depreciation.
"Continuously Variable Transmission" - sounds interesting.
"Premium fuel" - Hmmm. Not that much more than Regular, I suppose.
Willis' "the Car Book" (2005) is a bit limited on available information. It notes inexpensive insurance rates but a high number of consumer complaints. A mixed bag.
No insurance Institute data on the Murano, but Nissan has two vehicles in the top 12 safe cars - and other Nissans score better than industry averages. It looks like Nissan is taking safety pretty seriously.
I think it will be worth our taking a look.
And it looks like I need to get the 2006 version of Willis "The Car Book." I'll order it tonight. Being one year out of date is not helping.
_____________________________________________
QUOTE
I considered the RAV4 when i was looking last year but passed on it for two reasons, the size then was no bigger overall than my Celica, believe it or not.
Of course I believe you.
My how it's grown:
Celica - curb weight about 2500 pounds (depending on the year)
2005 RAV4 - curb weight about 2965 pounds
2006 RAV4 - curb weight about 3512 pounds (too many trips to McDonald's?)
QUOTE
The Toyota Rav4 for 2006 is a new model. Much of the safety/death rates you are seeing is not for this particular design. Theoretically the new build is larger and possibly safer but that is an unknown.
Understood. Agreed.
I always try avoid new cars in their first two years of production - it takes a little while to work out the kinks (remember Mac OS 10.0? - it took a few years to get the bugs out). I have explained this concept to Milady - do not a bleeding-edger be - complete with the auto repair reliability charts from the October 2005 Consumer Reports, which makes this issue graphically clear in regards to automobiles. If she decides on the RAV4, I believe she would wait for the 2007 model to come out in August before buying. That way she'll get at least one year of bug fixes in.
She is also talking about going for a used RAV4 from the 2003-2005 era - enough time after the 2001 redesign for the bugs to be worked out, but still prior to the new 2006 redesign.
We'll see.
Safety issues:
The Insurance Institute safety data has three Toyotas and one Lexus in their top 12 safe cars (Mercedes and Nissan each have two). Not too shabby. I doubt that this is blind luck - it looks to me that Toyota/Lexus must have a corporate commitment to designing for safety that goes well beyond random chance or mere PR.
The proof is in the insurance industry fatality results.
We have now looked at a 2006 RAV4. Three and a half inches wider than its predecessor - this should allow for greater rollover resistance if designed properly - and Toyota now does have a well-established record of designing for safety. An incredible number of airbags - in addition to the usual front air bags they have side of your seat (it pops forward out of your lateral seat back), side of head, and side body curtain air bags. Unfortunately, all but the front air bags are optional. I asked the salesmen - he stated that 90% of people are going with the complete airbag option. I asked who doesn't, and he quoted: "I've been driving for 40 years and I've never needed air bags!"
QUOTE
The electronic AWD that the RAV4 has is the 'on demand' kind that senses when it is needed and kicks in. Electronic stability control is a different animal so don't confuse the two.
Understood. Of key importance in understanding the difference between the Toyotas and the Subarus, and in shopping for AWD automobiles in general.
In the RAV4 it looks like all this stuff - AWD and Electronic Stability Control - are becoming one.
Vehicle stability control, traction control and various braking technologies are included in all RAV4 models. It looks like this is integrated into the AWD, as well.
The Murano looks pretty good as per Consumer Reports and as per Willis' Car Book. I will encourage Milady to take a look.
Question - how quiet is the Murano?
Internal car noise is becoming a key point.
All for now.
Thanks for all the ideas -
Epaminondas
Post by: MacHeadCase on July 18, 2006, 08:54:46 PM
QUOTE(Slugger Merna @ Jul 18 2006, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
how do i set a darn avatar on this board? i'd like to put up a picture
People, I think we got ourselves a spammer looks like.
Post by: Al on July 18, 2006, 10:10:47 PM
QUOTE(jcarter @ Jul 18 2006, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Al, Yup, we do love our trux. The "wet dog aroma" is extra, thats a very expensive add-on. Yellowlab-saltwater-stinky is premium.
Post by: krissel on July 19, 2006, 12:35:13 AM
QUOTE
...the link is to a gov spec site avoiding the company lean.
You don't really think the government is doing all those tests do you?
QUOTE
How are fuel economy estimates obtained?
EPA fuel economy estimates are obtained from laboratory tests conducted by manufacturers according to federal regulations. EPA re-tests about 10% of vehicle models to confirm manufacturer's results.
EPA fuel economy estimates are obtained from laboratory tests conducted by manufacturers according to federal regulations. EPA re-tests about 10% of vehicle models to confirm manufacturer's results.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml
QUOTE
Your MPG Will Vary
Your vehicle's fuel economy will almost certainly vary from EPA's fuel economy rating.
Fuel economy is not a fixed number, it varies based on
* Where you drive
* How your drive
* Many other factors
The EPA ratings estimate the MPG a "typical" driver should get under "typical" city and highway conditions. However, most drivers and driving environments aren't typical, and the factors that affect fuel economy can vary significantly:
* Driver Behavior & Driving Conditions
* Vehicle Condition & Maintenance
* Variations in Fuels
* Inherent Variations in Vehicles
* Engine Break-In
So, the EPA rating is a useful tool for comparing vehicles when car buying, but it may not accurately predict the average MPG you will get.
Your vehicle's fuel economy will almost certainly vary from EPA's fuel economy rating.
Fuel economy is not a fixed number, it varies based on
* Where you drive
* How your drive
* Many other factors
The EPA ratings estimate the MPG a "typical" driver should get under "typical" city and highway conditions. However, most drivers and driving environments aren't typical, and the factors that affect fuel economy can vary significantly:
* Driver Behavior & Driving Conditions
* Vehicle Condition & Maintenance
* Variations in Fuels
* Inherent Variations in Vehicles
* Engine Break-In
So, the EPA rating is a useful tool for comparing vehicles when car buying, but it may not accurately predict the average MPG you will get.
E, when you read about complaints it's important to find out what they are and more important what has been done to address them. MYCARSTATS is the best place to read about all models complaints, service bulletins and recalls. They are very up to date and have all official info on virtually any car.
I combed that site for a couple months tracking down problems that were ignored by some manufacturers claiming there wasn't anything wrong. I knew there were reports of alternator problems with the early Muranos and I waited to see what they were going to do. Once they had a recall I felt they were being honest about addressing the issue even though it didn't affect my year. I also read about some people who had road debris hit the gas tank and cause a leak. That scared me but Nissan ordered a recall to install protectors and I got mine done right away. On the other hand, Lexus has been very slow to admit transmission, headlight and brake booster problems which are mentioned quite frequently.
You asked about noise and I am a noise freak as well. I can't stand the smallest rattle, tick, or anything in my car. I nearly went crazy one day when I heard a scratching noise until I realized it was from a CD playing that I had recorded from an old vinyl album.
The engine is very quiet and the CVT transmission is smooth with no shift shock. Power is not compromised as some would have you believe. However if you have the windows down and are on the interstate there is WIND noise. That is one thing that disappointed me about the car at first, but I have found a combination of open windows that make it reasonable. With the windows up there is no problem.
So that may be a consideration depending on your driving habits.
As to safety/crash/rollover, the Murano got 4 stars frontal, 4 rollover, and 5 for side impact.
Here are places to check other cars:
http://www.safercar.gov/
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/
http://www.safercar.gov/pages/ESC-EquippedVehicles-2006.html
It uses REGULAR gas, not Premium. Why some articles say it requires Premium is beyond me, maybe they have a link to the oil companies. My manual even states regular as the recommended octane.
Obviously I am happy with my car but the larger Rav4 and the new Mazda CX-7 would have been serious contenders had they been available when I was looking. Yes, they are first year models and are a slight risk in that sense but my previous two cars were first year models ('67 Camaro, '86 Celica) and I had each for 19 years with few repairs.
Probably the one thing that I think of nearly every time I'm in my car is the difference in height between this and previous vehicles. For once I can see at intersections and in traffic. And now I feel paranoid when I'm in others' cars, even my folks' Volvos.
Take time to go over all aspects of the vehicles you are considering.
If cargo room is important bring a tape measure. Have someone who is large sit in the rear seat if you are going to carry passengers.
Although I wouldn't trade my Murano for any of the others I was looking at, there are a few things I wish were different. The rear visiblity is not great, although the new models have the backup camera standard.
Also, I'm 5'7" but a smaller person might have trouble closing the rear lift gate as it is heavy and not powered.
Choice of car is a very personal thing, like chosing a partner.
Just be as sure as you can before you commit.
Post by: jcarter on July 19, 2006, 06:29:59 AM
Jaguars are very nice, if you can put up with expensive maintenance.
Jane
Post by: sandbox on July 19, 2006, 07:03:44 AM
QUOTE
Question - anyone have any thoughts on quiet cars?
Buick, in the reasonable price range should give you a quiet cruise. Very well received!!
http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/buick/rend...s_consumer.html
Kris, I think Consumer Reports have the same results using independant testing. I'm out of time so I'm sort on links.
Post by: Gregg on July 19, 2006, 07:39:12 AM
QUOTE(RHPConsult @ Jul 18 2006, 12:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As I understand, each of the 3 recognized credit reporting agencies now are required by the FTC to provide you one of their reports on you (her) annually (so, presumably corrections of errors can be made), but that to get "their" score you have to pay a small fee. I think that's the way it works.
That's the way it worked for me recently. I didn't pay the fee, so I didn't get a credit score. What I got was enough to determine that I won't be in one of those funny identity theft commercials any time soon. Darn!
Post by: Gary S on July 19, 2006, 09:22:43 AM
QUOTE
I would just buy whatever car you like and be sure to have good tires. I have lived in Wisconsin my whole life. Driving successfully in the snow is more a function of the driver than the car. Just remember to drive slower. You shouldn't be having to slow down a lot at the the curves if you aren't going too fast in the first place.
I have to agree with swhitset.
Good tires and drive carefully. Wisconsin winters aren't that bad.
Getting through deep snow is an art.........you turn around and go the other way.
Post by: sandbox on August 01, 2006, 01:14:48 PM
Post by: gunug on August 01, 2006, 02:35:33 PM
Post by: Epaminondas on August 01, 2006, 03:29:32 PM
Funny you should ask. ;-)
Milady has test driven several cars and there are a few more she still needs to check out.
Me riding shotgun.
Then after she drives it, I give it a whirl.
Currently she favours the four-wheel drive RAV4 but she wants to compare the RAV4 four cylinder to the the six cylinder. Mostly for noise comparisons.
We tried the Subaru Outback - that is one of the few Subarus with stability control. She was underwhelmed - nothing very specific. She did mention engine noise. I found the four cylinder to be underpowered for passing - it was like being on a sailboat - we do some travelling on rural roads and need to be able to pass slower cars. Between the wind noise and road noise, the noise in the Subaru was of a different quality than the RAV4 - more highs in the Subaru (more wind noise) - but the overall noise level of the Outback was not that much different from the 4-cylinder RAV4.
Milady wouldn't even get into a Subaru Forrester - she is not interested in buying any vehicle that lacks stability control.
It looks like I taught her well. :-)
(Plus she's been reading a lot of current car-buying material, too).
Oh - I was amused at the general manager and at the salesman at the Subaru dealership.
I first asked about stability control - the general manager denigrated it and denied that any Subarus have it (he is apparently in error).
The Subarus apparently have a relatively low center of gravity - the salesman was encouraging us to do 60 MPH on the 25 MPH exit ramp. We are relatively conservative drivers - it was hard for me to push it to 45 on the highway exit curve, but I did it. Hey – the Subaru hugs curves!
He was obviously pushing the strengths of the vehicle. The amusing thing to us is that we do relatively little high-speed cornering, which is one of the Subaru's strongest points.
It reminds me of friends who own Porshes - then find their cornering ability wasted in suburbia and on the highway. They have to go out and find winding country lanes to show you what their car can really do.
Bottom line - the Subaru's strengths and our needs do not match.
Our major need is not high-speed cornering, but is staying alive - which is one of Subarus' major weaknesses.
We have obtained the 2006 The Car Book (Gillis), The 2006 -2007 Consumer Reports New Car Buying Guide and the 2006 Consumer Reports Used Car Buying Guide.
All gifts from myself to Milady.
She has been in a slack period, lately - she currently has time for this.
Plus we stumbled across the June 2006 Consumer Reports, which evaluates a bunch of the smaller 2006 SUVs - including the Toyota RAV4 and the Subaru Forrester.
I saw Milady perusing parts of the CU Used Car Buying Guide this morning. Used cars, hmm? She is considering her budget and her options - which car plus used vs. new. All of which is good.
She has a starting salary figure and a budget, now. The U.S. dollar is beginning to seem a lot more real to her.
We ran several possibilities by our automobile insurance agency and were not hit by any big surprises.
We both have requests out for the free credit bureau reports from all three credit bureaus - thanks for the guidance, y'all! - should be here within a week or so.
No time pressure from me - she can go for a 2006 on sale or wait for the 2007s in August, whichever she prefers.
But she probably better wait until she has some income, I suppose . . .
And she is getting some coaching from her sister - whose husband is buying her a 2006 Forrester "on sale" ("$2000 off") a the end of the 2006 season.
Her sister was interested in the safety issues raised but she doesn't make the decisions about which car she drives.
I tried raising the automobile safety issue with her husband once but he informed me that it was all just a bunch of bull - so that's that.
The above male-female dynamic is why I am giving Milady all the information I can give her about buying a car - and she can balance cost, safety, noise, reliability and style as she sees fit.
It will not be a car I bought for her.
It will be HER car.
I think she will have much more pride in ownership that way.
Other concerns now are job and moving and housing - I got her started on the car thing a little early to help distract her during the hurry-up-and-wait job interview process - and I figured she would then get overwhelmed by the other matters as they came along.
She is absorbing information like a sponge - her questions are good.
I'll let you know what car she ends up with - and a little bit more of our impressions of different cars and how she decided.
This is helping me to review the whole car-buying process for myself, as well.
You learn a lot when you are teaching someone else.
Regards,
Epaminondas
Post by: gunug on August 01, 2006, 04:24:48 PM
Post by: Gregg on August 02, 2006, 07:40:03 AM
Post by: amaizen_aristotle on August 02, 2006, 09:03:44 AM
The Toyota Yaris is a small car based on one of Toyota's 'world cars' -- it is offered in various forms in many different markets. This is common for automakers, for instance the Honda Fit is known as the Honda Jazz in many other markets. There are a few new entries into this lower end, less expensive category. My wife is going to be getting a car in the next few months, and she is going after a Honda Civic or a Honda Fit. The Fit is a competitor of the Yaris, so that might make it of interest here. For a useful comparison of some of the entries in this segment, check out the following link.
Car and Driver
Post by: Gregg on August 02, 2006, 12:14:12 PM
what happened to your car?
oh, it threw a Fit...
Post by: sandbox on August 02, 2006, 11:17:54 PM
Balancing a 4 cylinder is no picnic but Toyota does a better job than most. A small 6 cylinder will smooth out the noise and vibrations but add weight and fuel to the mix.
One point: Weight. Being in and around cars most of my life and owning a body shop back in the 70's I can say with some experience that a heavier car is safer. If safety is the highest factor and your willing to pay for it in cash and mileage then you may want to look a little deeper into the metal.
Crash tests rarely reflect actual crash results, but if you know that your tested on side impact you add a post or beef up the one you have. If the head-on test is done the same way as last year no change is needed, but if they tweak the angle just a bit, your test results will be different.
Gregg
For a low cost car with the best warranty in the business Hyundai Accent is hard to beat. http://www.hyundaiusa.com/
Scion, http://www.scion.com/ a subsidiary of Toyota also makes inexpensive car, but they carry the TOY warranty that just doesn't compete with Korean companies like Hyundai or Kia.
Hey E, have you considered the Santa Fe? http://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicle/santafe/santafe.aspx
Post by: krissel on August 03, 2006, 01:45:39 AM
QUOTE(Gregg @ Aug 2 2006, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's a strange name to give a car....
There's been worse. Like the Impact.
Or the Chevy Nova for which they failed to change the name when they tried to sell it in Mexico.
(In Spanish, No va = doesn't go)
As to the Yaris:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006053000959
Post by: Gregg on August 03, 2006, 07:34:07 AM
God is in the drive train?
SB, I cannot recommend a car with such lousy phonetics.
He actually test drove an xA yesterday. I think he's leaning to that one as one of the most reliable in the low cost zone, in spite of it's poor "score" on noise and "the ride". Another contender might be the redesigned Kia Rio. It has no maintenance record - neither does the Honda Fit. (I think the Accent is a redesign this year too.) Not on the radar: the dreadful Chevy Aveo.
Post by: Highmac on August 03, 2006, 07:54:08 AM
For some reason the Daf Daffodil (from Holland).....
didn't do too well with the macho crowd....
As you can see it was very spacious... compared to a Fiat 500. It was belt-driven through a variable pulley system. A colleague back in the 70s who owned one came in one day, late "because my car's rubber band broke". The boss laughed too much to get annoyed...
Post by: sandbox on August 03, 2006, 12:52:58 PM
QUOTE(Gregg @ Aug 3 2006, 08:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ya, I used to own a Nova. It went.
God is in the drive train?
SB, I cannot recommend a car with such lousy phonetics. He actually test drove an xA yesterday. I think he's leaning to that one as one of the most reliable in the low cost zone, in spite of it's poor "score" on noise and "the ride". Another contender might be the redesigned Kia Rio. It has no maintenance record - neither does the Honda Fit. (I think the Accent is a redesign this year too.) Not on the radar: the dreadful Chevy Aveo.
God is in the drive train?
SB, I cannot recommend a car with such lousy phonetics.
He actually test drove an xA yesterday. I think he's leaning to that one as one of the most reliable in the low cost zone, in spite of it's poor "score" on noise and "the ride". Another contender might be the redesigned Kia Rio. It has no maintenance record - neither does the Honda Fit. (I think the Accent is a redesign this year too.) Not on the radar: the dreadful Chevy Aveo.I suspect any car with a 1.6 Litre motor will be a bit of a buzz saw.
The good thing about Korean cars is that they have such a remarkable warranty, and that warranty binds them to years of misery if they don't get it right.
Look at the satisfaction ratings for the Kia by the owners and you'll only see mild complaints about things like power, well they knew how powerful the car was going in, if they wanted more power they should have bought it. But as far as reliability goes they are winners as are the Hyundi's.
I guess I'm just amazed at the achievement of these companies to build this level of reliability, reach 32+ MPG for 12-13 thousand dollars. If they can also meet Flexfuel requirements like the Chevy Aveo they will be with us for years to come, or at least until China comes into the picture.
Post by: LR827 on August 03, 2006, 01:09:12 PM
Post by: Peter on August 05, 2006, 09:01:21 PM
Shouldn't have any trouble with snow, ice, mud, or other cars on the road.
On the other hand MPG isn't so good, in fact its so poor that it should be measured in GPM gallons per mile.
Peter