Post by: Parker on October 14, 2006, 10:36:26 PM
and nothing came up
so i'm shocked nobody posted this yet
but for those who don't listen to or watch the news
Cory Lidle, a New York Yankees Pitcher who joined the team in summer of 2006 died on wednesday, October 11th, when he was flying and hit a building while his plane was in what seemed to be a stall (maybe jim can elaborate)
if the yankees only won... it would all be different :\
Post by: gunug on October 15, 2006, 05:17:11 AM
I think what will happen is that there will be greater restrictions on private aviation in and around big cities. It is a surprise that there already aren't such restrictions. I worked at the Junction City, Kansas airport back in the late 1970's and had two planes crash while I was working. Both were student and pilot and one just missed hitting an oil truck on a highway and the other crashed in the midst of houses. The news about these plane crashes were that the students and teachers walked away from them and no one else was hurt. People then in that town were amazed that planes were allowed to fly around town without restrictions.
Post by: Gregg on October 15, 2006, 03:37:26 PM
Post by: Xairbusdriver on October 15, 2006, 04:10:39 PM
Finding definite causes for these kinds of events is usually very difficult. While there may be many "eye-witnesses", those are, in fact, the least reliable type, even if they are pilots! Since there are no 'black boxes' in small aircraft, it usually ends up as a detective search of the instruments and even the scratches found on internal engine parts.
If there was a stall, it could easily have occurred when either the student or the instructor realized the approaching collision. The 'natural' reaction is to increase the turn by increasing the bank angle and/or increasing the pull on the yoke ( increasing the elevator angle ). Unfortunately, doing this also increases the speed at which the wing starts to lose lift. If that speed ever gets above the actual flight speed, the aircraft simply quits flying as the pilot wants. This loss of control may be only a split second or eternity, it all depends on the pilot and his environs. The pilot can and does get training in stall recovery and avoidance but this takes some time to develop into a habit/instinct. Without proper planning, the pilot has very little control over the environs he finds himself, "Planning" is the most important skill any pilot learns. It's what most pilots call "staying ahead of the airplane". A very useful skill in many of lifes endeavors, BTW.
Post by: krissel on October 15, 2006, 10:48:59 PM
The only good thing in the reporting besides the new regulations is that the military scrambled fighter jets all over the country when this happened.
Post by: Gregg on October 16, 2006, 07:40:22 AM
QUOTE(krissel @ Oct 15 2006, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What surprised me was that they were allowed to fly such a course without contact with any control towers,
As I understand it, the altitude restrictions put them out of the "sight" of the control towers. (too many buildings in the way) But they're required to fly so low in order to fly by sight. Thus, it becomes an obstacle course - too many buildings in the way...
Post by: Xairbusdriver on October 16, 2006, 11:58:41 AM
Post by: gunug on October 16, 2006, 12:04:48 PM
QUOTE
Gunug was prescient
I'm okay with that now that I've looked it up!
Post by: Parker on October 16, 2006, 01:10:01 PM
QUOTE
... it shows how little damage can be caused by these small aircraft
a small aircraft crashed into a building in Miami a short time after 9/11 i believe
and very little damage was done.
-----
Dad told me that the u-turn that you need to make in the East River Corridor is extremely hard, whih they have said in the paper;
however Lidle was flying with an insturctor
who should have piloted the plane through the corridor
since Lidle was not experienced enough to do so.
Post by: RobW on October 16, 2006, 01:27:22 PM
Tons of coverage in Philadelphia as well. Remember that he pitched here for a few years before being traded to The Yankees at the end of July. Last spring, he did several TV interviews about his new hobby of flying, and took a camera crew up in the sky with him. They replayed those over and over last week. It was a bit strange seeing them again.
Post by: Gregg on October 16, 2006, 08:30:00 PM
The list is even longer for those who were passengers in a small plane. Payne Stewart, Roberto Clemente (not a small plane).... Sometimes it doesn't pay to be wealthy.
There's a memorial to a musician in Madison who died trying to make it in for a concert. I forget who he was. I just read the plaque in April. The plane he was in crashed in the lake.
Not sure if Thurman Munson was the pilot or a passenger.... Buddy Holly, Jim Croce I think both died in plane crashes.
Post by: Parker on October 16, 2006, 10:28:47 PM
who died on I-495 (Long Island Expressway)
i really think the FAA should mandate black boxes in private planes too
for securty reasons
Post by: Xairbusdriver on October 17, 2006, 10:30:33 AM
QUOTE
the FAA should mandate black boxes in private planes too
for security[sic] reasons
Uhm, that would be rather like closing the barn door after the horse(s) escape. "Black boxes" don't tell you what might happen in the future, only what did happen in the immediate past. From that info it is usually easier to determine why it happened. But for the info to be gathered, one would already have had the 'security' breach ( crash into a structure, etc. ). The how and why is rather a moot point then. "Black boxes" are not designed for any 'security' information that I'm aware of.for security[sic] reasons
Private flying is already one of the most expensive "hobbies" around. These boxes and their associated sensors and wiring could easily add 25% to the cost of most light aircraft and do nothing to increase 'security'.
The basic cause of most crashes, no matter what size the aircraft, is lack of pilot 'situational awareness'. Instruments can help, but when flying under Visual Flight Rules as in this case, it is extremely important to be aware of where one is as well as where one will be in the next few seconds. That is what is meant by being 'ahead of the airplane'. The pilot cannot simply be a 'passenger', he must be in control in a four or five dimensional environment; up, down, forward, time and outside obstacles ( whether fixed [ buildings ] or moving [ other aircraft and even birds ] ).
Notice that I have not used the word "accident" yet. Most pilots know that there is no such thing. Somewhere along the chain of events that result in the 'event' there is a human fault that could have prevented the final outcome. It may go all the way back to the assumptions of the designers or as recent as some action or inaction of the pilot. But the end result is the same. That is where the "black boxes" come into play. They can usually report exactly what the pilot was doing ( and saying ) and how the aircraft was responding to those actions.
In the Lidle case, in might confirm who was at the controls, who decided to make the turn or why no one saw the building in time to avoid it. It certainly would confirm the airspeed and control positions which, in turn, might indicate any corrective actions attempted. It might even bring to light any purposeful criminal actions. But it would still be after the fact, not much help in the 'security' sense.
Post by: krissel on October 18, 2006, 01:27:53 AM
Not to mention many politicians (though not all in this list were small planes):
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/1...shes/index.html
Regarding Jim's explanation that virtually all crashes can be traced back to human error... I watched Nova tonight on PBS which had an investigation of the Tenerife, Canary Islands crash about 30 years ago when a Dutch KLM 747 took off without clearance and hit an American Airlines 747 still taxiing on the runway. Over 500 died due to a convergeance of events but ultimately because the pilot of the KLM (a premier experienced pilot) ignored procedure and decided to take off.
Very interesting program if you get a chance to catch it.
Post by: Gregg on October 18, 2006, 07:48:27 AM
Post by: kimmer on October 18, 2006, 10:45:45 AM
QUOTE
You can add Otis Redding, Patsy Cline, Ritchie Valens, Big Bopper, Audie Murphy, Aaliyah, John Walton (WalMart), and of course, Amelia Earheart and Will Rogers to the list of small plane casualties taking well know personalities.
John Denver, Payne Stewart, JFK JR, Thurm Munson, Jim Croce, Glen Miller, and "the day the music died": Buddy Holly, the Big Bopper (J.P. Richardson), and Ritchie Valens.
Plus more ... I think there have been several in the Kennedy family who have died in small plane crashes.
Post by: LR827 on October 18, 2006, 01:39:01 PM
But it is easy to see how un-secure we really are. Pack that light plane with explosives--or a "dirty" (radioactive) bomb--and Mr. Bin Laden will have outdone himself.
The Mayor of Chicago, Richard Daley, was lambasted for destroying, in the middle of the night, Meigs Field. The business community has sued over it, b/c even though he claimed it was for "security reasons," he had been talking about closing that airport for years and planned to use the land for a park.
I don't know what all this means. It is tragic about Cory Lidle. I'm not sure they have even figured out whether he was steering the plane, or his (26-year-old) flight instructor. The insurance companies are anxious to know, since they have to pay off in one case, not in the other.
(BTW, Parker, I really like your new avatar! ... But I miss your mugging for the camera!)
Post by: kimmer on October 18, 2006, 02:17:18 PM
QUOTE
The similarity to 9/11 must have been hair-raising for those NY'ers who witnessed the crash.
A friend of mine is alive because she was hungry and stopped for breakfast -- otherwise she would have been in one of the towers on 9/11. As it was she was just a block or so away and saw it happen. When this accident took place she watched it out her office window. She's having nightmares again.
I've flown in small planes during the day and the evening. The day time was okay. The night time was hairy as the tower gave the pilot the wrong runway. Fortunately it was caught in time by the tower. We never saw the other small plane, and they never saw us. Of course, I forgot it all when we were airborn and I saw the sights all twinkly in the lights. The pilot didn't forget and when returning, he verified twice what runway to land on.
Post by: jwboyd on October 18, 2006, 07:35:51 PM
Post by: jcarter on October 18, 2006, 07:54:24 PM
They hung on to a nav. bouy not too far off the harbor, and a small boat picked them up, twas summer and the water was warm.
He has never flown since.
But there are far far more people killed in car accidents than planes, so keep on flying!
Jane
And we have a family friend who had his engine conk out, and he was in Ohio, and landed in a corn field. Unscathed, and the plane was hauled out and was just fine.
So keep on flying!
Post by: krissel on October 18, 2006, 11:27:33 PM
Felt pretty secure each time but worried about the pilot since he was the only one without a parachute.
Post by: jcarter on October 19, 2006, 07:34:51 AM
Those days were long ago and lots of fun.
Jane
No parachutes in those little planes at all, if your little engine quits, you plop down in the jungle canopy, or land on the beach. I think there has only been one fatal plane crash in Belize, a tourist plane went down off one of the northern keys. I think there were about 10 people aboard. I heard about it on the news.
Post by: Gregg on October 19, 2006, 07:49:55 AM
I took a sightseeing ride in a small plane over Milwaukee once, and nobody had a parachute!
Post by: Xairbusdriver on October 19, 2006, 02:47:56 PM
Post by: Parker on October 19, 2006, 09:52:57 PM
QUOTE
"Black boxes" don't tell you what might happen in the future, only what did happen in the immediate past
However by figuring out what happened in the past, you can use it to improve the future.
QUOTE
He has never flown since.
But there are far far more people killed in car accidents than planes, so keep on flying!
But there are far far more people killed in car accidents than planes, so keep on flying!
Commercial aviation, despite the terrorist attacks, is still extremely safe!
It really is much safer than driving
especially flying on airlines like Southwest or jetBlue, which aren't targets
and probably will never be
QUOTE
(BTW, Parker, I really like your new avatar! ... But I miss your mugging for the camera!)
lets compromise...
give me a day or so
Post by: Highmac on October 20, 2006, 02:57:36 AM
QUOTE(krissel @ Oct 19 2006, 05:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Been in a small plane only twice.
Felt pretty secure each time but worried about the pilot since he was the only one without a parachute.
Felt pretty secure each time but worried about the pilot since he was the only one without a parachute.
It's the new employee-incentive plan....
PS: Like the Jumbo banner.....
Post by: krissel on October 20, 2006, 03:35:20 AM
QUOTE(airbusdriver @ Oct 19 2006, 03:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Perhaps you meant to say "Only the pilot had a parachute." In that case I would be very nervous!
No, no. I phrased it properly.
Both flights were to go skydiving.
Post by: D76 on October 20, 2006, 10:59:36 AM
I found out soon enough that flying was not for me. I could slip the surely bonds of Earth and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings — if the carburettor didn't freeze — but I'd kiss the ground every time I returned to it. I could never have been any more than a hack — safe, probably, but never doing more than a workmanlike job. I stuck it out until I soloed, then walked away.
ABD probably has seen too many of that kind of pilot who stayed with it. But I've never regretted learning to fly, because I had always wanted to, and if I never had, I would still be wondering.
I had no instinctive feel of an aircraft, and I knew I never would because even then I could compare it to my abilities driving a car, which, corny as it sounds, does become an extension of myself — any car does, though I prefer those with rear-wheel drive and standard transmissions. Driving a car is like slipping on a glove. Cars do what I want them to — mostly — before I tell them what to do. A plane never would. Motorcycles don't, either.
Trucks are like cars to me, though the bigger they are the less one can or should do in attempting to take advantage of any "natural" ability — for lack of a better term — to pull an iron out of the fire — that is when it isn't your fault the iron is there. A good driver wouldn't put himself in that spot in the first place. This, I don't doubt, is the case with anything that flies.
Five-cent philosophical rant: A natural ability at anything and the confidence it engenders — playing pro ball, for instance (though I'm not saying this was the case with Cory Lidle, just that the possibility exists) — doesn't extend automatically to anything else. Maybe it was obvious to me because I could compare one mechanical contrivance with another. My flying lessons taught me a lot, though piloting an aircraft was the least of it.
Too bad I forgot it when I tried skydiving. Oh, God, that hurt. Ha ha ha ha ha.
Post by: jcarter on October 20, 2006, 11:57:51 AM
Oh, how I wish that Massachusetts drivers were as knowlegable as that, perhaps we would have fewer accidents. We sure have plenty, and 99% of them are caused by human error and just plain human stupidity(and alcohol and drugs), but that goes along with stupidity.
I prefer not to drive in the city any more, and try not to drive much after dark any more.
Jane
Post by: Xairbusdriver on October 20, 2006, 03:01:20 PM
I suspect the internet might also be safer with that change, even if a lot less interesting...Not many pilots continue if they don't really enjoy it. But I still wonder about a young ( at the time ) lady who flew as my First Officer a few times. I asked her how she became interested in flying ( there were only a few 'girl' pilots at FedEx then ). She claimed that since she found out she was too short to be a stewardess, she to the next best option! She was quite a character and I suspect she was 'playing' me on the line which I swallowed, hook, line and sinker!
She was funny, but I think the joke was on me! Tragically, she ( and her husband ) were severely injured in a traffic accident. She had both lungs transplanted ( I didn't even know that was possible and sounds like a last ditch solution! ) and made a long slow recovery, but will never be able to fly commercially again.
Post by: jcarter on October 20, 2006, 03:35:48 PM
My neighbour had a lung transplant last year and she is doing very well.
But only one,, not both.
Jane
I did see a joke the other day, it was a picture(probably Photoshopped) of a UPS truck with a dented in front bumper with the hood falling off, beside a FedEx truck lying on its side. With both drivers looking at each other, the caption was, "UPS won"