Post by: eric j on March 06, 2007, 03:42:44 PM
A friend of my wife, (by the way I married an old friend in Argos, 15 Feb), has asked me to recommend a notebook for games.
But,
a) I have next to no computer gaming experience
b) I have heard people (including some on this board) say that Intels are better for games and/or have a much wider selection of games available.
c) I have no usable knowledge of Intels.
So,
Would some kind person please offer some advice?
eric j
Post by: Xairbusdriver on March 06, 2007, 06:33:59 PM
Second, the topic is computer related...and as long as people stay ON topic and provide positive input ( AWTTW*: We don't need/want brand bashing-it's of no real value here and those types of posts may even be edited or deleted ), I don't mind if it ends up recommending a PC type machine.
However, I would think that a laptop for gaming would probably be a built-to-order machine as it should have a high speed drive, an upgraded video card and as large a screen as possible. Those are just my opinions, however, experts are welcome to bring truth to the thread!
*AWTTW = "A Word To The Wise"
Post by: jepinto on March 06, 2007, 07:47:40 PM
Post by: kelly on March 06, 2007, 08:15:05 PM
No. Intel macs are plenty On Topic.
A good Desktop is always better than a good Laptop for Gaming. But if your friend is intent on a Laptop then the choice is clear. A MacBook Pro.
http://www.lowendmac.com/macbookpro/15.html
With these Intel macs you can run all the PC Games and all the mac Games. So yes. You have the widest choices of any Laptop.
Core 2 Duo MacBook Pro w/ Windows XP running Half-Life 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kH5suKHY84
http://www.barefeats.com/mbcd9.html
http://www.barefeats.com/mbcd3.html
Post by: Epaminondas on March 06, 2007, 10:24:49 PM
QUOTE
A friend of my wife, (by the way I married an old friend in Argos, 15 Feb), has asked me to recommend a notebook for games.
But,
a) I have next to no computer gaming experience
But,
a) I have next to no computer gaming experience
This looks like a perfect recipe for your making a bad recommendation that will make you look pretty silly.
Perhaps you should carefully bow out of this somewhat precarious situation with the same explanation to the friend of your wife's that you just gave to us?
Simply:
Notebooks are a poor choice for gaming.
The gaming community does not use notebooks.
The essential piece of hardware for gaming is the video card, not the processor. Gaming video cards use a lot of power and run HOT. Trapped in the tight confines of a notebook, cooling such a card is problematic. To the exent that it can be done it generally requires LOUD fast-running fans that draw a lot of battery power. The video card itself draws a lot of battery power.
So you do not end up with a notebook that runs off a battery, you end up with a "portable desktop" that has to be plugged in to a wall socket in order to be used.
Gamers tend to like to periodically upgrade their video cards more than any other part of their machines. Notebook video cards typically cannot be upgraded. So a whole new notebook would be required in order to upgrade the video card.
Macintoshes have historically tended to be years behind the Wintel world in regard to video cards. I do not know whether or not this still holds true, but one thing to watch out for is whether the reviews are comparing play of the same game on current Macs and Wintel machines, or if they are just comparing Macs against different Macs.
Comparing game play between different Macs has historically been like racing different turtles against one another. Amusing, but not that interesting.
Comparing playing the same game on a Wintel machine has historically been like throwing a hare into the race.
The best thing for Macintoshers who want to game is to do their computing on a Mac and do their gaming on a gaming console.
The new Wii gaming console is said to be an extaordinary gaming experience. I believe that it runs in the $200-300 range. And a Wii console can be enjoyed by more than one person at once.
The Wii it is designed to get people who are not traditional gamers into gaming.
Your wife's friend might even like it.
YMMV.
Congrats -
Epaminondas
Post by: kelly on March 06, 2007, 10:41:29 PM
mac machines are as good at Gaming as PCs.
Yes Desktops are better but Laptops are useable if that's what you want to use.
Post by: Epaminondas on March 06, 2007, 10:52:47 PM
Do you have any gaming shootouts of the same game on an Apple Mac vs. on a non-Apple Wintel (or Windows/AMD) machine?
I noticed that the gaming shootouts you had were focused on Apple Macs against Apple Macs.
Best regards,
Epaminondas
Post by: Paddy on March 06, 2007, 11:13:49 PM
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3149424
Windows Gaming on MacBook Pro - note: this is on the older (slower) first iteration of the MacBook Pro, so games may perform somewhat better now.
At any rate, serious gamers don't usually use laptops. It gets rather expensive...not that top-of-the-line Alienware or build-it-yourself desktop machines aren't way up there in the stratosphere either!
http://www.laptopadvisor.com/laptop-gaming.html
Post by: Gregg on March 07, 2007, 07:12:54 AM
I have a comment on "more games for Windows than Mac"
This is true. However, if you purchase every game that will run on a Mac, you won't run out of games to play. This is wha we call...
red herring –noun
1. a smoked herring.
2. something intended to divert attention from the real problem or matter at hand; a misleading clue.
(not the first one)
Post by: sandbox on March 07, 2007, 06:24:27 PM
A friend who’s a big gamer likes this one because it’s lite.
His last Dell was close to 5 pounds heavier.
http://reviews.cnet.com/Acer_Aspire_2020/4...7-30873506.html
This is an older review, but it should give you some stuff to think about.
Post by: kelly on March 07, 2007, 06:58:44 PM
Ok. Go with Jennie's link.
Post by: Epaminondas on March 08, 2007, 01:39:52 AM
Gamers like maximum pixels on the screen. The bigger the screen and the smaller the pixels, the better for gaming. This enables a gamer to be first to see the bad guy coming in on the edge of the screen to get off that all-important first shot.
These sorts of screens are the sorts that make for tiny print. Acceptable for young people's eyes, but generally not so great for older folk. The kids aren't using these screens primarily for print, anyway.
Simply put, the more into gaming people are - the larger the screen.
Notebooks - even 17" notebooks - have smaller screens than are optimal for gaming.
____________________________________________________
In regards to gaming on a Mac - hey, the Mac is great for what the Mac does well. But why use a screwdriver to hammer a nail?
Sure, you can game on a Mac. You can game with a pencil and paper, too - or with a rubber ball or a deck of cards. So what? That is not what computer gaming is about.
As far as computer gaming is concerned, in trying to game on a Mac you are talking about overpaying for an underpowered hardware platform with the wrong Operating System on it.
What kind of sense does that make?
__________________________________________________
A lot of gamers play against each other - online or in a LAN party setup.
To a gaming geek - that is "social activity."
But in either of these scenarios, the laptop gamer will be greatly at a disavantage when compared to the other gamers.
You just cannot pack the same kind of power into a laptop that you can pack into a desktop.
So the other guy will get his shot off first, and the laptop gamer will lose.
Consistently.
So competitive gaming against others will be out.
But that is a lot of what gaming is all about.
__________________________________________________
The following may be helpful in giving you an idea of the relative power of different video cards. Note that the fastest video cards available for lapops are slower than the fastest video cards available for desktops:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/03/06/the...html#conclusion
__________________________________________________
Lastly:
"Gaming Notebook" is an oxymoron - like "Square Circle" or "Fighting for Peace."
Sure, you can get someone to sell you what they call a "Gaming Notebook" - you can get someone to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge if you willing to pay high enough for it -
But you will end up with one of those compromises that isn't really a very good notebook and that isn't really that good for gaming, either.
What you will get is a white elephant with six massive legs.
Best regards,
Epaminondas
Post by: Xairbusdriver on March 08, 2007, 09:44:18 AM
This thread asks for recommendations in an area that the author admits lack of knowledge. Because the subject is also affected by the subjective opinions of users, I have allowed a certain amount of non-brand specific opinions to enter the discussion. However, it is slowly deteriorating into a 'don't make such a stupid mistake' debate with less input of facts and more and more opinions and not a little very lightly disguised cynicism.
Perhaps the best solution is to have your new wife jointly investigate info about the subject of using a notebook/laptop for gaming by visiting as many sites/forums as you can stand!
The bottom line is that this decision should be hers, not yours ( assuming the costs are mutually covered and agreed to, you're a team now! ). She should be the one who understands the limits that this particular decision may impose on her enjoyment and use of the machine, no matter what the brand.Unless someone has some added info, adding relevant info about this subject, I will close it in the next 24 hours. After that time, you can PM me with additional info you feel would help eric and his wife.
Post by: Gregg on March 08, 2007, 12:15:05 PM
Post by: tacit on March 08, 2007, 09:03:52 PM
It makes a big difference. Some games are more demanding graphically than others. The latest generation of first-person shooters really want a very high-end, very fast 3D graphics card; the Intel graphics card in the standard macBook (not the MacBook Pro) absolutely will not work.
Some real-time strategy games are moving in the direction of 3D graphics as well, and perform best on a computer with a good graphics card.
A MacBook Pro makes a fair-to-middling game computer. It's appropriate for all but the most advanced first-person shooters; MMORPG games, RTS games, and the like work fine on it. You'll want to buy a copy of Windows and install Boot Camp, though. It will not play games requiring direct access to the graphics card in virtualization programs like Parallels, because Parallels does not allow direct access to the graphics hardware.
Hard-core gamers are in fact beginning to move toward laptops, because laptops are easier to carry to LAN parties. Several laptops are now on the market which are essentially a desktop computer crammed into a laptop case. Many of these feature desktop processors, not laptop processors, and full-fledged high-end desktop graphics cards, not laptop graphics cards. The downside is they are very expensive (I have a friend who bought a gaming laptop for about $5,000), and have extremely poor battery life (with the processor cranked up to full speed and the graphics card in highest resolution, expect battery life of 20-25 minutes, or 30-40 minutes with an auxiliary battery pack).
The best known of these high-end gamer laptops is the AlienWare Aurora m9700. Quad-core 64-bit processor, two video card slots (with SLI so the video cards act in concert, offering double the frame rate for 3D graphics and games), 4GHz dual-channel memory bus...if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.
Another, though less powerful, popular gamer laptop is the Dell XPS M2010. It uses the Core 2 Duo processor and ATi Radeon Mobility graphics card--a good graphics card, but not nearly as sophisticated as the cards in the Alienware. It's also, to be fair, significantly cheaper than the Alienware. The Alienware maxes out at 400 GB of internal hard drive storage; the XPS, at 240GB.
Another highly-regarded gaming laptop is the Rock Xtreme CTX-PRO. I do not have any personal experience with this laptop (I have friends who have the Alienware and the Dell XPS), and it's a UK manufacturer, so the prices are a bit high owing to the weak American dollar these days. The Rock Xtreme systems allow dual graphics cards like the Alienware, and are available with desktop graphics cards rather than laptop graphics cards like the Alienware.
Post by: Epaminondas on March 08, 2007, 11:49:13 PM
QUOTE
The best known of these high-end gamer laptops is the AlienWare Aurora m9700. Quad-core 64-bit processor, two video card slots (with SLI so the video cards act in concert, offering double the frame rate for 3D graphics and games), 4GHz dual-channel memory bus...if you have to ask how much it costs, you can't afford it.
Wow! Neat stuff!
Way beyond what I am seeing.
Questions:
(1) Are the video cards in these beasts upgradable?
I would hope that they would be.
(2) Are any games currently taking advantage of quad core CPUs?
(3) What is the demographic of the people who own these super-laptops?
__________________________________________________
I have a number of nephews who, with their friends, are into gaming.
Teenagers and early twenties.
These are young gentlemen who earn their spending money lifeguarding and such - college will see parential help, work and loans. Superlaptops are not in the picture.
Two styles of gaming I am seeing:
(1) Weekend LAN parties (oddly enough, the term "LAN party" is never spoken) where groups of young gentlemen bring over their computers - desktop-sized stuff hauled in both arms, not small machines or notebooks. They gather in the nicely finished basement - their territory - and frag well into the early morning hours, long after parents (and doting uncle) are in bed. Apparently the young gentlemen have to have a game server available in addition to their own individual rigs. Some of the guys crash and leave in the morning after adults awaken - or early afternoon.
Not really amenable to close observation, they form a cohesive tribe in the basement - queries from the doting uncle are met with grunts/monosylables - close observation would be an inappropriate intrusion into their nether realm.
All Wintel PCs - not an Apple machine in sight. Not a notebook in sight.
Oddly enough, of late there tends to be a girl or two hanging around, as well. What games the girls are playing is another story.
The girls do not seem to be around the next morning.
(2) Console gaming. Xboxen. Generally two guys slouching in chairs side-by-side, both hands attached to console controllers, staring into a television set and fragging other two-man teams over the Internet for several hours at a stretch. Very violent, fast and colourful.
This tends to be more daytime stuff, and has an entirely different social ambience than the LAN party. Enquires from the doting uncle are met with several words spoken in actual succession - not whole sentences of course, but there is not the extent of the tribal non-communication barrier that one sees with the LAN parties.
What cars and girls and alcohol/drugs will do to all of this is of interest - time will tell.
There does seem to be much less focus on girls than what we had in an earlier era.
Earning money for college and hanging out with male friends seem to be squeezing girl time and alcohol/drug time out of their lives.
I would guess that male hormonal energies are currently being spent on fragging various video demons instead of with hormonal demons of an entirely different sort.
I would like to think that I am mistaken.
Come to think of it, the nieces do not seem to be hanging out with gentlemen, either.
I wonder if the young gentlemen who, in an earlier era, would be following the girls' phermonal trails around like flies are now too busy earning money for college and playing video games with the guys?
So - if no boys, what are the girls doing?
An awful lot of academic study and volunteer work.
All three of the girls own laptops - and spend an extraordianaly amount of time using them to access social networking sites.
None of the guys own laptops - the guys seem to think of computers largely in the context of gaming machines.
Of course, I could be wrong about current social trends that I seem to be seeing with my nephews and nieces.
I certainly hope so.
But I do not think so.
Regards,
Epaminondas
Post by: eric j on March 09, 2007, 10:17:08 AM
Thanks for the congatulations. I'm sure we will lead a happy life.
Wow! The information you have provided is encyclopaedic.
Thanks very much.
From what I know of my wife's friend - a young woman - I think she is unlikely to be a high-end gamer. Since my original enquiry I have learned that she wants to use apps. like Microsoft office too.
She also values portability.
So it's likely that I have enough information to help her now.
Vivat TS!
eric j
Post by: kelly on March 09, 2007, 10:53:08 AM
A decent Video card and a goodly amount of RAM. Maybe 1 GB if Vista.
Stay away from what they call Integrated Video. No actual Video Card.
Just have her avoid the cheap models really.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on March 09, 2007, 11:26:35 AM
QUOTE
Since my original enquiry I have learned that she wants to use apps. like Microsoft office too.
She also values portability.
Then that brings us right back to the MacPro. It'll all the MS stuff and she'll get to see why OS X is so great! She also values portability.
I think this thread has come full circle! And with mostly good taste!
Post by: tacit on March 09, 2007, 01:34:34 PM
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow! Neat stuff!
Way beyond what I am seeing.
Questions:
(1) Are the video cards in these beasts upgradable?
I would hope that they would be.
Way beyond what I am seeing.
Questions:
(1) Are the video cards in these beasts upgradable?
I would hope that they would be.
Yes. The video card slots are standard PCI-Express, and will accommodate standard video cards. The cards have to be SLI-capable if you want to use both cards in tandem to boost frame rates.
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(2) Are any games currently taking advantage of quad core CPUs?
Good question. I know some games take advantage of dual-core CPUs, so I assume there are probably some high-end games (Doom 3, I'd imagine, though I don't know for a fact) that'll take advantage of quad-core CPUs.
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(3) What is the demographic of the people who own these super-laptops?
Not me, that's for sure!
The guy I know who has one is a computer professional (works in the IT department of a very large bank), childfree, and has a lot of disposable income. I suspect that's probably the demographic you'll see consistently--people in their mid to late 30s with professional white-collar jobs, lots of money, and a passion for video games.
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Two styles of gaming I am seeing:
(1) Weekend LAN parties (oddly enough, the term "LAN party" is never spoken) where groups of young gentlemen bring over their computers - desktop-sized stuff hauled in both arms, not small machines or notebooks. They gather in the nicely finished basement - their territory - and frag well into the early morning hours, long after parents (and doting uncle) are in bed. Apparently the young gentlemen have to have a game server available in addition to their own individual rigs. Some of the guys crash and leave in the morning after adults awaken - or early afternoon.
Not really amenable to close observation, they form a cohesive tribe in the basement - queries from the doting uncle are met with grunts/monosylables - close observation would be an inappropriate intrusion into their nether realm.
All Wintel PCs - not an Apple machine in sight. Not a notebook in sight.
(1) Weekend LAN parties (oddly enough, the term "LAN party" is never spoken) where groups of young gentlemen bring over their computers - desktop-sized stuff hauled in both arms, not small machines or notebooks. They gather in the nicely finished basement - their territory - and frag well into the early morning hours, long after parents (and doting uncle) are in bed. Apparently the young gentlemen have to have a game server available in addition to their own individual rigs. Some of the guys crash and leave in the morning after adults awaken - or early afternoon.
Not really amenable to close observation, they form a cohesive tribe in the basement - queries from the doting uncle are met with grunts/monosylables - close observation would be an inappropriate intrusion into their nether realm.
All Wintel PCs - not an Apple machine in sight. Not a notebook in sight.
Given the very high cost of desktop-class laptop PCs--easily half again, sometimes double the cost of an equivalent desktop gaming machine. So people without a lot of expendable income aren't likely to opt for the laptops over the desktops.
My friend got an Alienware laptop because he both hosts and goes to a lot of LAN parties, and got sick of lugging his desktop around. He and his family like to go camping, too, and he brings it when they go camping.
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oddly enough, of late there tends to be a girl or two hanging around, as well. What games the girls are playing is another story.
The girls do not seem to be around the next morning.
The girls do not seem to be around the next morning.
Lot of women are getting into computer gaming. In the Tampa group that I used to play games with, there are at least six women I can think of off the top of my head who game.
My girlfriend Shelly has been spending the week with me (it's spring break for her), and she's spent most of that time in front of the computer playing World of Warcraft. MMORPGs seem to be especially popular with women; Blizzard says that women outnumber men in World of Warcraft by a small margin.
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(2) Console gaming. Xboxen. Generally two guys slouching in chairs side-by-side, both hands attached to console controllers, staring into a television set and fragging other two-man teams over the Internet for several hours at a stretch. Very violent, fast and colourful.
This tends to be more daytime stuff, and has an entirely different social ambience than the LAN party. Enquires from the doting uncle are met with several words spoken in actual succession - not whole sentences of course, but there is not the extent of the tribal non-communication barrier that one sees with the LAN parties.
What cars and girls and alcohol/drugs will do to all of this is of interest - time will tell.
This tends to be more daytime stuff, and has an entirely different social ambience than the LAN party. Enquires from the doting uncle are met with several words spoken in actual succession - not whole sentences of course, but there is not the extent of the tribal non-communication barrier that one sees with the LAN parties.
What cars and girls and alcohol/drugs will do to all of this is of interest - time will tell.
Console games are still very much male-dominated. The main demographic for console games, according to the International Game Developers Association, is young white heterosexual men.
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There does seem to be much less focus on girls than what we had in an earlier era.
Earning money for college and hanging out with male friends seem to be squeezing girl time and alcohol/drug time out of their lives.
I would guess that male hormonal energies are currently being spent on fragging various video demons instead of with hormonal demons of an entirely different sort.
I would like to think that I am mistaken.
Come to think of it, the nieces do not seem to be hanging out with gentlemen, either.
I wonder if the young gentlemen who, in an earlier era, would be following the girls' phermonal trails around like flies are now too busy earning money for college and playing video games with the guys?
Earning money for college and hanging out with male friends seem to be squeezing girl time and alcohol/drug time out of their lives.
I would guess that male hormonal energies are currently being spent on fragging various video demons instead of with hormonal demons of an entirely different sort.
I would like to think that I am mistaken.
Come to think of it, the nieces do not seem to be hanging out with gentlemen, either.
I wonder if the young gentlemen who, in an earlier era, would be following the girls' phermonal trails around like flies are now too busy earning money for college and playing video games with the guys?
Well, to be fair, you're probably not looking at a representational sample.
And as online games such as MMORPGs and "virtual environments" like Second Life become more and more popular, they become a real social environment. I've met people in real life that I "met" first in World of Warcraft, for example.
Human social environments are becoming increasingly abstract and virtualized. Chat rooms, social networking sites, game environments, and virtual worlds are all legitimate places for social interaction, and the social relationships that form there can often translate very well into the 'real world.'
Of course, the rules of these virtual environments are different from the normal social rules of meatspace, but that by itself doesn't make virtual environments any less of a legitimate social outlet.
Honestly, though, I think the time that young adult men spend on video games now is probably similar to the time that young adult men might have spent tinkering with hot rods or doing other traditionally male-dominated hobbies before the age of computers.
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So - if no boys, what are the girls doing?
An awful lot of academic study and volunteer work.
All three of the girls own laptops - and spend an extraordianaly amount of time using them to access social networking sites.
An awful lot of academic study and volunteer work.
All three of the girls own laptops - and spend an extraordianaly amount of time using them to access social networking sites.
Ding. The girls are on Myspace and Livejournal, or setting up profiles on OK Cupid, or playing Warcraft or Everquest. (MMORPGs typically have much more modest hardware requirements than games like first-person shooters.)
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Mar 9 2007, 05:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
None of the guys own laptops - the guys seem to think of computers largely in the context of gaming machines.
Of course, I could be wrong about current social trends that I seem to be seeing with my nephews and nieces.
I certainly hope so.
But I do not think so.
Regards,
Epaminondas
Of course, I could be wrong about current social trends that I seem to be seeing with my nephews and nieces.
I certainly hope so.
But I do not think so.
Regards,
Epaminondas
Not surprising the guys don't own laptops. You have to spend a metric truckload of money to get a laptop machine that'll play Doom 3 well, and laptops (with few exceptions) are trickier to upgrade when new graphics hardware comes out. I mean, hell, *I* can't afford an Alienware, so it's pretty much a foregone conclusion it's out of the reach of most twentysomethings!
Post by: Xairbusdriver on March 09, 2007, 02:31:51 PM
Thanks for keeping this a focused and useful thread. Lots of good info.