Post by: Paddy on August 01, 2007, 07:22:01 PM
Post by: Shades of Gray on August 01, 2007, 08:37:04 PM
I don't live there, but in June I had been at a church convention in Minneapolis and had gone over that.
Post by: RNKIII on August 01, 2007, 09:10:53 PM
Right now they're saying 3 drownings so far but they still have search & rescue people in the water looking...
WHAT A MESS this will make for commuters into downtown Minneapolis from the northeast...
Cause unknown at this time... only 'light surface maintenance' going on at the time of the collapse....
But it's got barge, rail, and surface transportation tied up in that area for some time to come...
Bob K. rnkiii
Post by: Texas Mac Man on August 01, 2007, 09:44:01 PM
Post by: Shades of Gray on August 01, 2007, 09:47:55 PM
Post by: Gregg on August 02, 2007, 07:27:37 AM
This bridge is within walking distance of my son's fraternity at the U of M. Beneath it, along the Mississippi River, are running trails. He was planning to use those trails this fall as he continues to train for a marathon. In fact, a house mate of his was on our local news. He had been one of the first citizens to come to the aid of victims. He told a story of being enlisted by paramedics to keep talking to a man he had helped once they got him on a ventilator. The man died while my son's friend was doing this, all the while saying "My legs! My legs!" He was, of course in shock. To a lesser degree, aren't we all!
Post by: gunug on August 02, 2007, 07:53:22 AM
Post by: kcourt on August 02, 2007, 09:39:19 AM
They said this morning that they expect to find more bodies in submerged cars.
A very sad day for friends and family.
Kathy
Post by: sandbox on August 02, 2007, 02:53:22 PM
QUOTE
The Interstate Hwy. 35W bridge that tragically collapsed into the Mississippi River Wednesday evening was one of 1,135 road spans in Minnesota rated as "structurally deficient" by the federal government.
That’s 8.7 percent of the state’s 13,008 bridges, 20 feet or longer, that are subject to annual inspections. Another 451 spans are considered "functionally obsolete." Included in the total are 65 bridges that are more than a century old.
That’s 8.7 percent of the state’s 13,008 bridges, 20 feet or longer, that are subject to annual inspections. Another 451 spans are considered "functionally obsolete." Included in the total are 65 bridges that are more than a century old.
Post by: kimmer on August 02, 2007, 03:06:15 PM
I was at CNN.com and they have video of the collapse ... but I can't get it to play. Page totally crashed Safari, and in FF all I get is the "yak-yak" and a black screen. Anyone know why this doesn't play for me? Is it a win only thingy?
Post by: Xairbusdriver on August 02, 2007, 03:14:48 PM
I'm just glad I don't have to justify making the risk versus needs calculations for these kinds of things. If it turns out to be a know problem, no amount of rationalization will be enough. There is simply no way to include the value of a life in those calculations, IMHO.
My prayers are with those who are suffering from injury or loss of a family member or friend. And don't forget the early responders, either. Whether they are like Gregg's son's friend or trained professionals, many could do nothing more than comfort the dying. I can't imagine how difficult that would be.
Post by: Paddy on August 02, 2007, 04:50:26 PM
Our infrastructure (roads, sewers, railways) is in various states of disrepair all over North America. Much of it was built in the last 100 years or so, and guess what? It doesn't last forever and you do need to maintain it! Big shock, apparently, to most of our governments.
Unfortunately, maintenance doesn't make for exciting election issues - although I suppose when things actually start falling down and people die, it might take on a bit more urgency. Let's hope so. I could go on, but I'm going to start treading in the no-go zone if I do.
Post by: sandbox on August 02, 2007, 07:11:58 PM
It was being resurfaced and lanes were closed to traffic at rush hour. A 500-foot span fell into the river carrying 50 vehicles.
Paving equipment is heavy, additional aggregate is heavy; moving traffic to one side is not ideal. The bridge in its best condition could have been over-stressed, but being at 40% and 40 years old didn’t help. I suspect that in their need to maintain an operating bridge that they overlooked crucial stress boundaries for a single truss system.
Post by: Paddy on August 02, 2007, 08:24:14 PM
Post by: kimmer on August 02, 2007, 10:06:46 PM
A few points:
QUOTE
WASHINGTON -- More than 70,000 bridges across the country are rated structurally deficient like the span that collapsed in Minneapolis, and engineers estimate repairing them all would take at least a generation and cost more than $188 billion.
[snip]
In a separate cost estimate, the Federal Highway Administration has said addressing the backlog of needed bridge repairs would take at least $55 billion. That was five years ago, with expectations of more deficiencies to come.
[snip]
At least 73,533 of 607,363 bridges in the nation, or about 12 percent, were classified as "structurally deficient," including some built as recently as the early 1990s, according to 2006 statistics from the Federal Highway Administration.
[snip]
A bridge is typically judged structurally deficient if heavy trucks are banned from it or there are other weight restrictions, if it needs immediate work to stay open or if it is closed. In any case, such a bridge is considered in need of considerable maintenance, rehabilitation or even replacement.
[snip]
The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand. The 18.3 cents a gallon in federal taxes hasn't changed since 1993, and the demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles could affect fuel consumption.
[snip]
According to the Federal Highway Administration, most bridges in the U.S. Highway Bridge Inventory _ 83 percent _ are inspected every two years. About 12 percent, those in bad shape, are inspected annually, and 5 percent, those in very good shape, every four years.
[snip]
An analysis of 2006 Federal Highway Administration data found that Minnesota bridges were generally in better shape than those in other states. Only about 6 percent of the state's 20,000 bridges were listed as being structurally deficient. In Oklahoma, nearly 27 percent of bridges were cited by the federal government as being structurally deficient, the highest percentage among the states.
Among counties with more than 100 bridges, the problem appears to be most significant in the Midwest. In Nemaha County in southeastern Nebraska, about 58 percent of 194 bridges are structurally deficient. More than 55 percent of neighboring Pawnee County's 188 bridges are in the same shape. Of the 10 worst-off counties with significant numbers of bridges, seven are in Oklahoma or Nebraska.
On the other end of the scale, at least 10 counties with a significant number of bridges have none that are structurally deficient, according to the latest government statistics. A half-dozen of those are in Texas.
[snip]
In a separate cost estimate, the Federal Highway Administration has said addressing the backlog of needed bridge repairs would take at least $55 billion. That was five years ago, with expectations of more deficiencies to come.
[snip]
At least 73,533 of 607,363 bridges in the nation, or about 12 percent, were classified as "structurally deficient," including some built as recently as the early 1990s, according to 2006 statistics from the Federal Highway Administration.
[snip]
A bridge is typically judged structurally deficient if heavy trucks are banned from it or there are other weight restrictions, if it needs immediate work to stay open or if it is closed. In any case, such a bridge is considered in need of considerable maintenance, rehabilitation or even replacement.
[snip]
The main source of revenue for roads and bridges, the federal highway trust fund, is failing to keep up with spending demand. The 18.3 cents a gallon in federal taxes hasn't changed since 1993, and the demand for more fuel-efficient vehicles could affect fuel consumption.
[snip]
According to the Federal Highway Administration, most bridges in the U.S. Highway Bridge Inventory _ 83 percent _ are inspected every two years. About 12 percent, those in bad shape, are inspected annually, and 5 percent, those in very good shape, every four years.
[snip]
An analysis of 2006 Federal Highway Administration data found that Minnesota bridges were generally in better shape than those in other states. Only about 6 percent of the state's 20,000 bridges were listed as being structurally deficient. In Oklahoma, nearly 27 percent of bridges were cited by the federal government as being structurally deficient, the highest percentage among the states.
Among counties with more than 100 bridges, the problem appears to be most significant in the Midwest. In Nemaha County in southeastern Nebraska, about 58 percent of 194 bridges are structurally deficient. More than 55 percent of neighboring Pawnee County's 188 bridges are in the same shape. Of the 10 worst-off counties with significant numbers of bridges, seven are in Oklahoma or Nebraska.
On the other end of the scale, at least 10 counties with a significant number of bridges have none that are structurally deficient, according to the latest government statistics. A half-dozen of those are in Texas.
We drive over 2 bridges almost once a day -- and the only thing that will get over them tomorrow is the fact that both have just undergone extensive repairs.
Gregg, my heart goes out to your son's house mate. That's a tough thing for a young man to face.
Post by: sandbox on August 03, 2007, 12:07:01 AM
A bridge built today? Sure it doesn’t meet today’s standards but it will still carry a load. Metallurgy has changed over the year as has structural designs. By the time they replace every bridge in America the inspection would find those new bridges “structurally deficient” as compared to the state of the art designs of the day.
It’s a slippery slope. On the one hand you depend on Civil or Structural engineers to inspect your bridges, then for the most part those inspectors were in diapers when the bridges were built and were educated to build differently. They may work for companies that would love a new bridge contract.
This is a larger problem than one would imagine. Wear and tear is obvious where stress is harder to measure without x-ray. Imagine x-raying the whole bridge, even just the probable stress points? Then imagine shutting the bridge down because you found something. Could you imagine the cost and outcry? The advantage of letting it go until an accident occurs is that when it happens “emergency funding” kicks in and the State is off the hook. I know it sound crude but if a State is cutting budgets on inspections @ 250 thousand dollars, what do you think a 250 million dollar bridge would do to a State budget?
The highway system belongs to the federal government, built under the justification in the 50’s 60’s of needing to transport military hardware in times of war, but the structures themselves belong to the States and they are responsible for the maintenance. Monies returned through highway funds are used for this task as well as auto fees and taxes. But the highway funds often come with unfunded mandates that increase the cost of poker where the funds fall far short of the need. The system is strangled in red tape and everything clinging to the system gets paid but the bridges and infrastructure itself.
This business is very corrupt and has been for many years. There was a study a few years back that claimed that half the monies collected for roads and bridges actually made it to the roads and bridges.
It is very unlikely that these type bridges will start to fall down unless work crews create the same conditions. Moving all the traffic to one side and adding enormous weight with a pavement layer, on an old bridge, is most likely not going to happen again.
Post by: Highmac on August 03, 2007, 02:44:50 AM
We over here send our sympathy to all those affected.
Post by: kimmer on August 03, 2007, 02:52:44 AM
QUOTE(sandbox @ Aug 2 2007, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Kimmer, “structurally deficient” is a broad term that one would need to ask…. As compared to what?
Can't answer that as I'm not an engineer.
I just know I've always hated bridges and when I'd get stuck on one in rush hour - I would begin to panic. Sneakers is a good guy and does his best to get me over bridges ASAP and talks me through any hold ups. QUOTE
It’s a slippery slope...The system is strangled in red tape and everything clinging to the system gets paid but the bridges and infrastructure itself.
This business is very corrupt and has been for many years. There was a study a few years back that claimed that half the monies collected for roads and bridges actually made it to the roads and bridges.
This business is very corrupt and has been for many years. There was a study a few years back that claimed that half the monies collected for roads and bridges actually made it to the roads and bridges.
Slippery indeed. Sadly, I think this redirection of funds is common and takes place in just about everything government is involved in. I'll shut up now.
QUOTE(Highmac @ Aug 3 2007, 12:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Kimmer: This BBC News page, top item (at time of writing, 8.42am UK) is the news report seen over here and includes the CCTV footage you mentioned. Click on the "Watch>bridge collapsing". When the video window opens you may have to click on "Open in standalone player", but the first one plays OK on my G5.
Thanks. Amazing footage.
Post by: krissel on August 03, 2007, 03:04:32 AM
And this report about the 20 worst bridges in the US is making me nervous again. Seems the worst bridge in the whole country is one that goes over that very section of Parkway just before the new bridge.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/0...avily-traf.html
Post by: Highmac on August 03, 2007, 05:22:19 AM
That event shook officials and the public so much that the Forth Bridge was, in short, vastly over-engineered ("robustly designed" in one report) to rebuild public confidence. It's still going strong - although its 45 acres of metal surface still need regular repainting - but the suspension-type road bridge built alongside just 40 years ago is in need of serious work because of corrosion in the supporting cables.
Website: http://www.forthbridges.org.uk/
Post by: Gregg on August 03, 2007, 07:36:52 AM
QUOTE(kimmer @ Aug 2 2007, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gregg, my heart goes out to your son's house mate. That's a tough thing for a young man to face.
Indeed. Josh is a good kid. You may yet see him on the national news. He and a roommate rushed over in the direction of the loud bang to see what happened. Once there, they noticed fire trucks up on an adjacent bridge, unsure of the route to take to get down to the victims. Josh and his friend directed them down to the river. They asked Josh to talk to the young man they tried to save, and when they got back to him, they knew he was not going to live. They gave the victim a cell phone and told him he should call loved ones for a final goodbye. Then a firefighter began to pray with the young man, who died before the prayer was completed.
This morning, a local reporter said that officials have lowered the estimate of the number of people missing to 8, but that he was unable to confirm that number independently, and suspected that it could be revised yet again. 8 is certainly better than 20 or 30, but a victim in the hospital died last night. I haven't heard how many remain hospitalized, only that about 80 were injured in the collapse.