Post by: kimmer on January 18, 2008, 08:27:14 PM
So, Sneakers keeps a LOT of mail. Lots and lots of it - as in Gigabytes worth!
It often all sits in his IN box (hey it's his mail and his machine and his way and I keep my mouth shut - most of the time). 
The problem is:There are several hundred pieces of email that keep "downloading" from somewhere. The same ol' emails. They go back to 2005! We've trashed them and emptied trash. We've compacted folders. I've verified at our hosting site that these aren't sitting there. Yet, they show up. At first, it was once in a while (as I said) ... now it occurs every time he launches Thunderbird.
He was running a really old version of TB (1.0.something) and I forced him to upgrade to version 2.0.0.9 (20071031). That didn't fix the prob.
Disk Utility shows no issues with his drive -- in fact, now that I think about it -- this drive is new since we moved, so it's not the hardware, it has to be software related.
I figure we could create a new profile and import stuff (we could do that, yes?), but I'm concerned that that would just bring whatever it is over with the import.
I'd trash a file if I knew what to trash.
If standing on my head would fix this, I'd try it.
Sneakers is running a G4, OS 10.4.11 (but this started back in 10.x days), and TB version 2.0.0.9 (20071031).
Anyhow, I said I'd ask for help ... so here I am.
Post by: Gregg on January 18, 2008, 09:32:32 PM
Post by: krissel on January 19, 2008, 01:22:56 AM
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?messageID=6323630
This was what helped some of them:
http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/02/08/rebuil...eed-up-mailapp/
There must be a similar file in TB.
QUOTE
Envelope Index is a SQLite database that keeps track of the senders, subjects and dates (but not the full text) of all your emails to allow for faster searching than Spotlight can achieve.
Scott Morrison, the developer of MailTags and Mail Act-on, has written some notes on how searching works in Mail.app in the comments on a macOSXHints article.
Deleting this file and allowing Apple Mail to rebuild it can fix a number of odd problems including the infamous “Your Home folder is full” message.
Scott Morrison, the developer of MailTags and Mail Act-on, has written some notes on how searching works in Mail.app in the comments on a macOSXHints article.
Deleting this file and allowing Apple Mail to rebuild it can fix a number of odd problems including the infamous “Your Home folder is full” message.
Also try removing MessageRules.plist and MessageSorting.plist from ~/Library/Thunderbird (guessing the path).
Post by: kimmer on January 19, 2008, 03:10:25 AM
I'll have a go at this tomorrow while Sneakers is gone and can't bug me.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on January 19, 2008, 10:27:11 AM
I assume you have TB set to delete messages from the server after it downloads them. It might even help to check the server, again, after shutting down TB, just to make sure it did the deleting properly. This is all a shot in the dark but it beats moving files that may even be hard to find...
BTW, love the childhood picture of yourself!
Post by: kimmer on January 19, 2008, 11:21:23 AM
Yes, TB is set to delete from server after download.
Sneakers is gone today and he said to wait because he wants to "watch" (translation: hover over my shoulder asking me goofy questions), so we won't try anything until tomorrow.
I'll let you know how things go: I'll be
if we aren't successful and 
if we are.
Post by: Mayo on January 19, 2008, 11:57:54 AM
I think that keeping that much mail in one mailbox or even in the active database is a very bad idea. My experience with other e-mail clients is that when the amount of data reaches a critical mass that all kinds of strange symptoms can occur... One reason I have stuck with Eudora all these years is that messages are stored as individual data files and not in a single large database where one can lose everything if the database becomes corrupted. It is also easy to archive messages outside the Eudora mailboxes and retrieve the data when it is needed.
I would find a way to archive all that mail separately from Thunderbird and start fresh and see if things start working better. You should consider Googling your problem because there is probably a Thunderbird forum out there where your problem is already addressed or you can post a query. It sure sounds like the mail that is being perpetually downloaded is sitting on a server somewhere!
Perhaps Little Snitch would be helpful in this situation... Little Snitch monitors outgoing data transfers and the first time you start-up Thunderbird after installing LS you should see a window asking for your approval to contact the mail server. The window will show the name of the server (it is also available under Window/Rules in the Finder Menu Bar but only after you have approved or denied the connection...) If Thunderbird is connecting to more than one server you will see one or more subsequent windows. Approve one connection and then see if the mail shows up. If another box appears repeat the process... If you OK a connection and then the mail suddenly appears then you will have confirmed that it is still residing on a mail server. (Your options are to never allow the connection, until quit or forever.) You can also configure Little Snitch to monitor local network activity in case Thunderbird is somehow retrieving the mail from an external drive, etc.
Little Snitch can be run in demo mode for up to three hours. It is very easy to set-up and use. Since LS monitors all outgoing traffic you could see additional windows depending on other programs that are running, so be sure that it is Thunderbird that is trying to connect.
(I don't understand folks who allow all of their mail to go to their "In" box... It is a very inefficient way to deal with e-mail. The only messages that make it to my In box are my daily Pobox.com SPAM discard notices. Everything else is automatically filtered to specific folders/mailboxes. This system makes it very easy to keep track of what is coming in and to prioritize responses, not to mention making archiving easier.)
Post by: kimmer on January 19, 2008, 02:11:12 PM
QUOTE(Mayo @ Jan 19 2008, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is a weird problem and heck if I know the answer, but why should that prevent me from offering My Two Cents?!
LOL! It shouldn't. 
QUOTE
I think that keeping that much mail in one mailbox or even in the active database is a very bad idea.
I agree with you, but Sneakers doesn't agree with either one of us.
QUOTE
One reason I have stuck with Eudora all these years is that messages are stored as individual data files...
Same here, but ... Sneakers be different.
QUOTE
You should consider Googling your problem because there is probably a Thunderbird forum
I did google, but I must not have used the correct terms because I kept coming up empty. Hence I pestered all of you.
I'll take a look at Little Snitch. Sneakers does have an external drive that he uses to back up TB.
QUOTE
(I don't understand folks who allow all of their mail to go to their "In" box... It is a very inefficient way to deal with e-mail.
It's the artist in Sneakers. Or his left-handedness. Or just because he is a different thinker. *shrug* I long ago gave up trying to understand why he does his email this way. In all other areas he's an organized, sharp, intelligent guy; but I guess everyone has to have a flaw and this is his. *huge grins*
I'm happier not thinking about why he does this (unless he has probs and I have to help fix them because he seems to be clueless about setting up and fixing email - and that's maybe my fault for originally setting up our stuff and not insisting that he learn along with me). LOL! He's happier not having me nag at him to do it "this way". ROFL!
Thanks for the tip on Little Snitch.
Post by: Mayo on January 19, 2008, 02:23:56 PM
Kim, I just did a bit of Googling... Here is a page describing duplicate messages being downloaded even though the messages are already in the in box and some possible fixes.
And here is the MozillaZine Thunderbird Issues links page. LOTS of info!
Post by: Xairbusdriver on January 19, 2008, 03:01:26 PM
I've found that typing too many words into the search field can sometimes give you "Nothing found" warning. Guessing the key words is the problem and they don't need to be as "key" as you might think. It's just faster, some times to make several searches with no more than 3 different key words at a time. YMMV.
Post by: kimmer on January 19, 2008, 03:24:39 PM
I likely was searching too specifically -- mainly because my more general search wasn't even close. Search Queen I'm not.
QUOTE
I have a large place in my heart for eccentrics of all stripes being one myself...
“Well, I can understand a man perhaps being eccentric enough to want to own a silk hat.” ~Will Rogers
QUOTE
Just keep in mind during your trouble-shooting that all that data in the in box may be the source of the problem.
I agree, and last night I had him move it all to a new folder. I wish he'd hurry home so I could dig in to fixing this.
Post by: Gregg on January 19, 2008, 03:43:36 PM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Jan 19 2008, 03:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oicking the key words is the problem and they don't need to be as "key" as you might think.
So that's it! I haven't oicked correctly. Thanks!
Post by: Mayo on January 19, 2008, 04:22:48 PM
My approach with Google is to simply state what I am looking for; I have found that the number of words do not necessarily hamper the search and may actually turn up more appropriate hits. Of course, using words like "the" or "and" can muddy the water just a bit... I also alter the terminology while trying to figure out what jargon folks tend to use in a specific situation.
"Power searchers" such as Yours Truly swear by a pricey little app called DEVONagent. At $50 a pop it isn't for everyone, but if you like to mine the far reaches of the Internet like I do and actually turn up useful information it is worth every penny. The real power of DEVONagent is the ability to fine-tune the search parameters and explore online search engines and databases that most people have never even heard of... DEVONagent is also Very Smart and sifts through the zillions of links to serve up only the most relevant hits.
Post by: kimmer on January 19, 2008, 04:48:07 PM
My searches were along the lines of ... now I have to remember again ... deleted mail reappears and other things that I can't remember now -- and the pages have vanished from my browser history. :annoyed:
I added Thunderbird as my secondary search.
$50 for a search tool!
I've been married to a Scotsman for too long to spend that much. But thanks for the heads up.I'm off to finish this stupid book I'm reading. Then I'm gonna work on a scathing review.
Post by: Mayo on January 19, 2008, 05:17:40 PM
The main problem with search engines such as Google is the huge number of hits that are returned and the limited relevancy of most of the results. DEVONagent is a lot smarter than Google when it comes to compiling the results and the way results are presented are much more usable than Google too.
DEVONagent is available as a demo so you can try before you buy...
Post by: Xairbusdriver on January 19, 2008, 06:32:26 PM
QUOTE
Had a nice answer typed up and I closed the window.
I'm assuming you were using "Quick Reply?" I know of someone who makes the error of sometimes clicking the "Close Fast Reply" button, I won't reveal his name but his screen name is usually only three letters. Anyway, when this un-named person accidentally closes that Quick Reply box, s/he can usually get it back, with the message still intact, by using the "Back" button in the browser. 
When you click the "Add Reply" or the "Close Fast Reply" the sever must actually send the whole page again, so you actually have the 'reply' box in the page just behind the one you are in. OTOH, if you are using any editor, closing the window pretty much destroys everything...that's another reason I like the "Quick Reply" method. Assuming, that is, I would ever make a mistake like that.
Post by: RNKIII on January 19, 2008, 07:05:50 PM
Post by: Mayo on January 19, 2008, 07:29:56 PM
The most common complaint that I hear from people trying to master using a computer is that they are overwhelmed by all the available information on the Internet. The second most common complaint is that they cannot find what they are looking for. DEVONagent is a great tool for sifting through all the available data and finding the nuggets of info worth reading. The summaries DEVONagent creates is one of the things that really sets it apart from Google. The cyrptic, truncated results provided by Google can drive a person crazy if you really need to find something on the Internet.
DEVONagent not only downloads the search results to your computer (which Google doesn't do), but intelligently prepares summaries of all relevant pages and suggests topical groupings of the search results. Also, it sorts out junk pages, index spam and addresses that are no longer available (the famous "Error 404"). This takes longer than a Google search but the DEVONagent results are significantly more useful. And results can be archived easily, even automatically.
DEVONagent's Boolean operators are much more powerful than what is available at online search engines, so a search is much more likely to get the desired results and can be very specific... So-called "deep" searches are also possible, during which DEVONagent follows links on a relevant page up to five levels deep.
DEVONagent is also very useful for students doing research. For example, research papers and similar educational data on the Internet are not highly rated by Google because they have few or no links from other Web sites, so search results that include these types of Web sites can be located deep in the Google list, far deeper than most people would care to navigate. A person can query multiple sources or just one, which can speed-up searches and return relevant results very quickly.
In an ongoing research project (or if a person is just really interested in a specific topic) DEVONagent can be configured to automatically search for the latest updates on individual or multiple Web sites, RSS feeds, blogs, etc. and deal with the results in a number of ways. The automatic searches can be scheduled hourly, daily, weekly ormonthly.
DEVONagent also has a built-in Web browser.
A primary goal I have when using a computer is to avoid unnecessary frustration. DEVONagent is one of those rare pieces of software that really does make doing something easier and quicker so you can get something accomplished.
Joe Bob gives it Two Thumbs Up.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on January 19, 2008, 08:11:31 PM
Don't ask...I eventually found the answer but without much help from Google. Finally conjured up "Presidents list" as the search criteria.
Post by: kimmer on January 19, 2008, 09:09:09 PM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Jan 19 2008, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
Had a nice answer typed up and I closed the window.
I'm assuming you were using "Quick Reply?"
QUOTE(RNKIII @ Jan 19 2008, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why is it that each time I see Kimmer's new avatar.... Golum from Lord of the Rings flashes into my head??
ROFLOL!!!!!! You just made my day, precioussssssssss.
QUOTE(Mayo @ Jan 19 2008, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
DEVONagent uses artificial intelligence to do its thing. It is actually relatively easy to grok how it works and customize it; right out of the box it isn't quite as useful because it is designed to be set-up to suit the individual user.
Oh sweet ... GROK. I like that word. I read Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land back when I was 18. It was the first time I'd read anything like that without it being a school must read. I fell in love with the book. At work everyone kidded me about reading intellectual stuff. It was tough to deal with - at 18 I didn't have much self-confidence. Anyhow, to shorten this ... a new gal comes into the office. Everyone thinks she's weird. Well, okay, she was weird; but a good weird in an eccentric way. She sees my book and starts asking me about bits and pieces of it - she'd read it the year prior. I'd found a friend! So had she. Okay. Enough.I may have to give DEVONagent a try -- just because. I do get tired of Google returning results that are totally irrelevant to my search. And why do I keep getting these adult pages when I'm set for non-adult stuff? I really don't get that. I can use my library's web site to do some deeper searches. They have free access to tons of stuff. You just have to know how to reach their search engine and you have to know your ID and password. I've read all kinds of newspapers, magazines, articles, etc, free that way. It's pretty cool. They didn't, however, seem to know how to fix TB.
I can see where DEVONagent might be helpful as our Friends group researches grants and such.
QUOTE
A primary goal I have when using a computer is to avoid unnecessary frustration.
Same here. I'm not good with frustration.
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Jan 19 2008, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I could have used it a few minutes ago, I was trying to find out who was the last mustached US President. Don't ask...
I eventually found the answer but without much help from Google. Finally conjured up "Presidents list" as the search criteria.
Okay, so who was the last mustached US President? Inquiring minds want to know.
Don't ask...I eventually found the answer but without much help from Google. Finally conjured up "Presidents list" as the search criteria.
Post by: kimmer on January 20, 2008, 07:37:23 PM
Here's hoping this fix worked. If not, I've bookmarked all the links and we'll go to phase 2.
Post by: sandbox on January 20, 2008, 10:56:47 PM
Because they're being forwarded and not downloaded they will accumulate if in fact they're repetitive mailings. One can also look for date & time stamps. One can also look in the header for the same email being sent from different servers. (I receive, for example, two sets of email from my city, the same email from different departments at or about the same time.
In defense of Sneakers position, one…does not separate SENT mail into separate folders, why would one need to separate received mail? Searching for mail is so much easier when it's all in a single column.
If you backup regularly there shouldn't be a concern over email losses, and having it in separate folders doesn't make it more secure.
Use the top IP Received: from host.pain_in_the_butt.com ([12.34.567.890]) in the header to set the forward. Do not use the email address or return address alone if you suspect it might be spam. You can use a combination of rules to forward the email as well.
Post by: Mayo on January 21, 2008, 02:33:44 PM
QUOTE
In defense of Sneakers position, one…does not separate SENT mail into separate folders, why would one need to separate received mail? Searching for mail is so much easier when it's all in a single column.
Welllll, I do have Eudora set up to place a copy of all sent mail in a mailbox in my "Saved Messages" folder. But I can easily imagine circumstances where saving sent messages in specific folders would be very helpful, such as dealing with a particular business client. Or planning a family reunion. Why is it easier to have all your e-mail from different people on varying topics mixed together in a single "in" box? In the family reunion example unique mailboxes and filters would make it Oh So Simple to track incoming and outgoing messages... Did Aunt Mildred get back to us about bringing a few jugs of her latest batch of moonshine? Did I remember to tell her to leave it in the trunk of her car because our local sheriff will be calling at the house (he has a tough reelection battle on his hands...) around the same time Auntie Mildred is due to arrive???
When I am using e-mail to arrange overseas trips I generally create a new e-mail account and filter responses to specified mailboxes. It makes it much easier to keep track of responses from airlines, lodging, friends we plan to visit, etc. And I can set it up so that responses that I want to see immediately automatically open on the desktop. That option came in very handy when we were in the middle of a lawsuit. E-mail from our lawyers would be automatically filtered into a mailbox set-up for mail from their firm. When their messages required timely responses I would tweak the filter so the message would open-up on the desktop as soon as it was received. Doing so meant that I probably wouldn't miss an essential communique...
In my day-to-day e-mail usage I have separate mailboxes for each e-mail account, mailing lists and bills that arrive via e-mail. It takes only a couple of seconds to see where there is unread mail; scanning a single mailbox would take significantly longer to do. I also have a "Response Needed" mailbox; I transfer messages to it that require a response that I don't want to deal with immediately and I usually mark them "unread" so it is readily apparent that there is a message waiting for a reply.
I don't know how you can say that searching for mail in a single column is easier. Having e-mail automatically filtered to specified mailboxes actually simplifies things, because you don't have to do much searching and you can easily choose which messages need a response and which ones can be ignored for the time being. Let's face it: some e-mail is important and a lot of it is not, so why treat both kinds of messages in the same way? I have used Eudora for years because it has such powerful filtering and search capabilities compared to other e-mail clients. And the way the user is notified of new mail is also easily customized.
You can take control of your e-mail, or let it control you. Taking advantage of e-mail filters reduces the time and frustration associated with dealing with more than a minimal amount of messages.
Post by: kimmer on January 21, 2008, 02:45:58 PM
QUOTE
one…does not separate SENT mail into separate folders
Well, actually, I'm ... errmmm ... eccentric enough to do just that in Eudora. I didn't do that in Thunderbird as the filtering system isn't as strong.
The search feature isn't as easily used in TBird vs Eudora either, so I'd say that some of this depends on the capabilities of the email program one is using.
Funny: Sneakers just popped in and asked me if I still had the email he sent me with a link to this weird site and I said yeah, and then proceeded to open the mailbox where his emails are filtered and ran a quick find and gave him the info. HAHAHA! He says I'm picking on him. HAHAHA
Post by: sandbox on January 21, 2008, 11:17:08 PM
The problem with folders is that sometime you put Mildred in the Mildred folder and sometimes you put her in the Moonshine folder and when you need moonshine you have to search for Mildred, if you know what I mean.
So everyday you open mail, go to the trouble of deciding which folder it belongs in and folding it. Tic-toc …leaving it in the long file and using a search engine on that rare occasion that you need to pull it back up again ……to me is more efficient.
Understand that, at anytime, I could search for Mildred…..gather the results and build a folder containing 10 years of email from Mildred in about 30 seconds, accomplishing in a very short time what it took you a thousands decisions and actions over many year to do. That is the power of the Search Engine in an email client.
All that aside TBird probably doesn't have the option package of either of our Client, but I does have a search engine and it works for me the same way.
In any case Kim, if you isolate the annoying email on the server you can track it's activity.
Post by: kimmer on January 21, 2008, 11:37:04 PM
This has really been an interesting discussion.
QUOTE(sandbox @ Jan 21 2008, 09:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In any case Kim, if you isolate the annoying email on the server you can track it's activity.
I can't -- it's not on a server. It was a corrupted database and dumping the files and forcing TBird to rebuild things took care of the problem. Post by: sandbox on January 22, 2008, 03:43:56 AM
Post by: Mayo on January 22, 2008, 11:09:50 AM
Post by: Xairbusdriver on January 22, 2008, 04:03:10 PM
We can all use the same app as many ways as possible. If it works for you, fine. If you see some techniques that might help, great! Please, lets not start complaining that we should all use an app the way we think it should be used. Well, except for URLM Pro...
I've never had anyone or any company require me to use any particular email client, and since email is supposed to be a text-based service, I can't see why anyone could/should require someone use a particular app. If a graphic is required, there is aways the attachment method. I can see why some Windows users would want others to use certain security and protective apps and certainly have all sent email through those to prevent any virus/worms/etc. from getting into ones own computer. But that task is is not normally handled by the email client, anyway.
Post by: sandbox on January 22, 2008, 06:11:06 PM
If Sneakers wants to use a straight line data file and search engine in ThunderBird it can work just as efficiently as any custom arrangement one might devise IMO, that was the point of my defending Sneakers position, not that My Email Client is more robust than anyone else's or that everyone should grab hold of the tail in front of them.
Post by: kimmer on January 22, 2008, 08:27:24 PM
I'm happy I was able to find the answer and fix the corrupted database for him.
I'm happy using Eudora, after a brief interlude with TBird.
I'm happy that sandbox likes Entourage.
I'm happy that ABD and Mayo are pleased with Eudora.
I'm happy that we are all happy.
And I'm happy that Happy is one of the 7 Dwarves, even is Sleazy isn't.
Yes there's a story there, and no I ain't'a tellin!