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Archives => 2008 => Topic started by: Gregg on January 29, 2008, 08:34:30 PM

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on January 29, 2008, 08:34:30 PM

Anyone else out there with a Leopard running loose trying to tame it with Spaces?
I set it up and tried it for about 10 minutes. It's now unchecked, and will remain so.

Sounds like a good idea: separate your open documents by application so when your desktop gets too cluttered, you can more easily find a document you want to bring to the front. But I quickly discovered that in so doing, the other apps don't just "fall" to the back, they disappear!

This is not good. I want to see the Calculator in the background when an Excel spreadsheet is front and center. Spaces makes that impossible.

Maybe it's time to find out what Expose does....

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on January 30, 2008, 07:27:52 AM

Upon further review, I think it might be possible to include more than one application per "Space". But, I read that tip after shutting down last night....

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: pendragon on January 30, 2008, 11:59:19 AM

Gregg,

MacWorld published (yesterday) several tips re assigning programs to Spaces.

Perhaps therein lurks a bit of joy for you-

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on January 30, 2008, 12:03:29 PM

I should soon be getting my first complimentary issue of MacWorld!

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on January 30, 2008, 12:04:14 PM

I also "played" with Spaces for a while. But since I usually only have three or four apps running at the same time and needing to interact with all of them at the same time, it didn't appear that Spaces offered anything useful for me. Perhaps others who need several different sets of apps running could find more use for Spaces. For this simpleton, it doesn't do much. And, yesy, you can have one app in several or all screens. But if I did that, it would be rather redundant. YMMV, of course.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 01, 2008, 09:18:32 PM

I was bad.

I didn't tell my wife I was setting up Spaces. (Although I could've and she wouldn'ta known what I was talkin about.) So tonight, she says, "What's the deal with this four-box thing? It keeps coming up and I didn't do anything."

I told her she should get hired on at Apple to help them name things, except that you can make more boxes...

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 10, 2008, 03:15:38 PM

My new "issue" with spaces is that it is inconsistent.

I noticed that with only one of my four quadrants "occupied" that the finder windows appeared in another "Space". Ok, fine. I have designated different applications for only three Spaces.

Yesterday, the finder windows were sharing a Space with Safari, and the fourth Space was unoccupied. I thought, "hmmm" (very profound, I know) and proceeded to switch the Space Safari would occupy. That seemed to clear up the unwanted co-habitation.

Today, the finder windows have migrated to the Space I moved Safari to yesterday, and the Space they both occupied then is unoccupied now! I was told by an Apple support tech (when I called about something else, I threw in a "bonus" question) that I could not assign the Finder to a Space. I believe him, because I don't see a way to do that in the preference pane. (or is it pain?)

Is there a way to get it to do what I want (keep a Space open for Finder windows) or do I have to put up with a Spacy Spaces Schizophrenia?

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Mayo on February 10, 2008, 04:32:28 PM

Ummm, I may be going out on a limb here but Spaces (its name when it was under development at Apple was "Spacey"...) is beginning to sound like more trouble than it is worth...

Gregg, I appreciate you blazing a trail for me through the Leopard-filled jungle.    I am learning what to avoid without having to go through the pain of learning it first-hand...  

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 10, 2008, 07:19:00 PM

It takes some getting used to, that's for sure. When activated, a click on the desktop behind an open application window does not[/u] bring the Finder to the front as it did in OS9, and I assume earlier versions of X, nor does that occur when you close an application from "within a Space". It's an elegant concept, but probably needs further development.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 10, 2008, 08:00:15 PM

Problem: Can't force "Finder" to stay in one 'space'
Reason: The Finder must always be usable in any window, whether a 'space' or a plain desktop. Too many things rely on Finder to block its use in any space. But you don't have to have a Finder window open in any space or Desktop. But I would really hate to be locked out of access to Finder, anywhere! But that 'problem' is not why I don't use Spaces, I just don't see a need in my normal computer use.

QUOTE

a click on the desktop behind an open application window does not bring the Finder to the front as it did in OS9

Actually, the Finder does come to the 'front' in that it becomes the active application. Check the name of the current 'front' application (right next to the Apple menu).

What does not come to the 'front' is any currently open Finder window. However, using the command-tab method does bring the 'front-most' Finder window as well as the 'Finder' in front of anything else on the screen. As with most generalizations, of course, there are exceptions. Help windows will still float in front of any application windows, including the Finders.

Frankly, I never noticed the trait you mentioned since I have always either clicked on a Finder window that might be visible. Or, if none were, I just command-tabbed to the Finder, which is always running. I'm just lazy, I guess, but I hate to leave the keyboard and reach for the mouse and vice versa.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 10, 2008, 08:52:59 PM

Jim, you're right. I should have clarified that it's the open Finder windows I'm referring to. I don't know why they "jumped" from one Space to another. I want to be able to define where they will appear. But, I don't think that's possible.

What is also different now is that when you do bring the Finder windows to the front, the other things that are open disappear rather than being visible, but behind the windows. Maybe that's only if Spaces is active, I don't remember, and I'm not taking the time to test it now...

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: krissel on February 11, 2008, 12:59:41 AM

Sounds like you might want to make more use of Expose to show the desktop and/or windows.  I'm not sure how it works with Spaces but I find it invaluable for finding open windows and getting a clear view of the desktop.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 11, 2008, 07:21:41 AM

kris, as far as I can tell, in Leopard, all Expose does is let you set "hot corners" for screen saver, sleep, or wake up. But I'll look a bit more closely when I get back to my Mac.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 11, 2008, 07:01:31 PM

Those corner prefs are just that, preferences. But Exposé still does the same things it did in Tiger (and probably Panther, if if was available back then.

Function key 9 reduces the size of all visible windows so you can find them easier.
Function key 10 highlights the front-most window and masks all the rest of the screen. Not sure what the point is in this.
Function key 11 clears all windows from the screen (actually pushes them almost off the screen) so you can see the whole Desktop. Helps when you know something is on the Desktop but can't get to it with all the windows normally visible. My wife finds this invaluable because almost everything is saved to the Desktop!

You also have a choice of requiring the use of the "fn" key for the above actions and thus allowing the function keys to do their "normal" Screen brightness, sound and DVD controls. I decided to do it the other way around and require the "fn" key when I want to control those same controls thus allowing just the three function keys to use Exposé. Your choice. Depends on what you use the keys for most, Exposé or screen and sound controls...

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 11, 2008, 07:38:43 PM

Of course, the function keys; including F12 for Dashboard. But then, you can assign any function key to each of the four.  I wonder what would happen if you tried to assign two of them to the same key?

None of them do what Spaces is supposed to do, which is separate things the way you want them. Right now, Spaces is showing Finder windows in three of the four quadrants. I've never seen that before. There seems to be no way to control where Finder windows will appear.

I don't know what the other things are for on the right hand side of the Expose pane. Mouse button 5???

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 12, 2008, 11:51:53 AM

I think you will have a Finder window in any 'space' in which you open one. Finder must be available in any/all 'space(s). But other aps/files don't have that operational "limit."

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 12, 2008, 12:08:49 PM

You might be on to something there. I'll have to pay closer attention to the sequence of opening stuff. Thanks!

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: krissel on February 13, 2008, 07:13:09 AM

For me, Expose is invaluable. I set one corner for showing all windows and another to hide everything to see the desktop. You can also set it to only show application windows but I don't have Spaces so I don't know whether one overrides the other?

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 13, 2008, 07:23:59 AM

kris, Expose has definitely changed in Leopard then. I'll check to be sure, but I don't remember an option to set a "hot corner" to show all windows. That's in the realm of Spaces. Expose (in Leopard) does let you assign that to an F key, as Jim noted.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 14, 2008, 07:15:24 AM

Ok, here it is. My version of Expose only shows 4 things in the "Screen Corners" section. (Makes sense, unless your screen has five or six corners.) Those are: Start or Disable Screen Saver (that's 2), Sleep, and Spaces. Now, before there were Spaces, there was void - oh, wrong text... There was something else.

Then in the Expose section (strange that a section has the same name as the toggle button for Expose/Spaces) is where you set F keys to show All Windows, Application Windows, or the Desktop ("naked"). Then there is Dashboard below that. Next to all of these is another pull down with choices for a Secondary Mouse Button, or Mouse Button 3 4 or 5, and those are blank (instead of Some Windows, Some Applications, Something Else...). I don't know if I can define something instead of the 'dash' it shows there now. When I pick the pull down, it reveals a check mark next to the dash, and the mouse button options.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 14, 2008, 09:21:29 AM

I think you'll need to use the "Keyboard & Mouse" pref panel to set those buttons. However, you'll also need to actually have a mouse with those buttons. If you got the new Apple Scroll ball mouse, you have them but I don't find those side buttons convenient to use. Probably because my hand is large and wraps around them just to hold the mouse. Non Apple mice should also work, maybe without any extra drivers.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 14, 2008, 12:16:15 PM

Thanks Jim. That's half the puzzle. Just what could they be set to do, and how? If they just do "dash" (-) what good is that?

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 14, 2008, 01:18:26 PM

QUOTE

Just what could they be set to do?

That may depend on what mouse you are using, it may come with certain options that could be different than Apple's. There is an "Other" option in my panel. I set that to run an AppleScript that was supposed to start my car and let it warm up on cold days. I finally gave up trying to find the AS Dictionary for my car... I think you can set that to open just about any app/folder/file/script/etc. that you want.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 14, 2008, 02:09:33 PM

Personally, I find Spaces to be a great tool!

Here's what I use it for, I have 6 "spaces" set.

Space 1: This is for internet surfing. So Safari, iChat, and Mail are assigned to this.
Space 2: Photoshop CS. This way I can work on a photo and not be distracted by iChat.
Space 3: Aperture. Aperture takes up the whole monitor, so I gave it it's own space.
Space 4: iTunes, Visual Hub, & Handbrake
Space 5: MS Office
Space 6: Final Cut Express. Same as Aperture.


I leave all these programs running all the time.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 14, 2008, 04:51:29 PM

QUOTE

Personally, I find Spaces to be a great tool!
Here's what I use it for, I have 6 "spaces" set.

Glad you like it! I think I just haven't tried it as much as I should/could.

Can you confirm that Finder is available in all spaces? That makes sense but it seems like I remember some strange space swapping when I tried to access Finder. Can't remember...

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 14, 2008, 07:51:44 PM

This is what I'm finding out, but didn't know before:

If I open up a folder on my desktop called pictures in Space 1, if I go to any other space and open up the folder pictures from there, it shifts back to space 1 to that open folder.

Now, if I went to space 4 and opened up applications folder, and went to space 6 and did the same thing, it would shift to space 4 to the already opened applications folder.

An easy way around this if I was in Space 6 and wanted to get that pictures folder open in that space (if the pictures folder was opened in say space 1), then I would click on the Finder icon in the dock and navigate to where I need to go.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 14, 2008, 08:26:29 PM

I think Jim means Finder windows; are they available in all Spaces? If that's not what he means, that's my question. I haven't been able to figure out how to (or if I can) control where Finder windows appear.

To answer the question Jim did ask; yes. Just click on the desktop background behind the visible app window, and the menu changes to Finder.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 15, 2008, 06:03:00 AM

ok, I'm a bit confused guys.

When you say Finder Window, you do realize that this is a finder window?



When you open up any folder, basically you are in the finder, not an application. Can you all please clarify what you are talking about?

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 15, 2008, 06:09:31 AM

This is a screenshot of all of my spaces. The smaller windows are "finder windows" opened in each space. Like I said before, if I was in space 4 and opened up a folder called "pictures", then when I go to space 1 and try to open up that same folder, Spaces takes me to the Space 4. And will keep doing it unless I close that pictures folder or move it to the space I want.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 15, 2008, 07:30:39 AM

QUOTE(JohnKentucky @ Feb 15 2008, 06:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When you say Finder Window, you do realize that this is a finder window?

Exactly! Some Spaces can be empty, of course, in which case you only see the desktop if you click there, and Finder appears in the menu.

QUOTE

When you open up any folder, basically you are in the finder, not an application. Can you all please clarify what you are talking about?

In a sense, the Finder is an application. Like other applications can be, it is active even if no window is opened in it.

I see from your second shot that there are finder windows open in several spaces. I want to control that, and have them only be visible in the Space I choose. I'm not sure that's possible.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 15, 2008, 08:36:33 AM

QUOTE(Gregg @ Feb 15 2008, 08:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly! Some Spaces can be empty, of course, in which case you only see the desktop if you click there, and Finder appears in the menu.

Yes, if any space is empty, the default is the Finder.

QUOTE

In a sense, the Finder is an application. Like other applications can be, it is active even if no window is opened in it.

I see from your second shot that there are finder windows open in several spaces. I want to control that, and have them only be visible in the Space I choose. I'm not sure that's possible.

You can't run a MacOSX without the Finder running. You CAN have certain finder windows opened in certain spaces, BUT, you have to keep them open in that space. Otherwise, it won't move to that designated space when you open up that folder.

I'm still really confused on your terminology there, Gregg in regards to the Finder. The way I look at it, the Finder is nothing more than Folders that you are opening up. No window that is open on the desktop will have Finder at the top. It's either Computer, Applications, Folder, etc, but there is no such thing as a "Finder" window with the name Finder at the top. Please take a screenshot and show me if there is.

The Finder is a program, and you can force quit it, but you can't run OSX without it, so the Finder starts right back up with no input from you.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 15, 2008, 12:18:04 PM

QUOTE(JohnKentucky @ Feb 15 2008, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm still really confused on your terminology there, Gregg in regards to the Finder. The way I look at it, the Finder is nothing more than Folders that you are opening up. No window that is open on the desktop will have Finder at the top. It's either Computer, Applications, Folder, etc, but there is no such thing as a "Finder" window with the name Finder at the top. Please take a screenshot and show me if there is.

I see the Finder as the environment that allows you to open and view windows. Windows that don't belong to any other program/application are the ones I'm calling Finder Windows.

But, not to stray too far from my question: Have you been able to control where Finder Windows (as defined above - or if you prefer; Folder Windows - is that better) appear in Spaces? I have not.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 15, 2008, 02:27:32 PM

QUOTE(Gregg @ Feb 15 2008, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE(JohnKentucky @ Feb 15 2008, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm still really confused on your terminology there, Gregg in regards to the Finder. The way I look at it, the Finder is nothing more than Folders that you are opening up. No window that is open on the desktop will have Finder at the top. It's either Computer, Applications, Folder, etc, but there is no such thing as a "Finder" window with the name Finder at the top. Please take a screenshot and show me if there is.

I see the Finder as the environment that allows you to open and view windows. Windows that don't belong to any other program/application are the ones I'm calling Finder Windows.

But, not to stray too far from my question: Have you been able to control where Finder Windows (as defined above - or if you prefer; Folder Windows - is that better) appear in Spaces? I have not.

You can't assign which space is to have which finder window, but you can open up one in one space and then it'll be "assigned" to that space until you close it or restart your computer.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 15, 2008, 08:51:10 PM

Thanks for your insight, John. I was just experimenting with it a little. Sequence matters. It seemed random to me before, but there must be some secret to how the various Spaces are designated as active when you don't intentionally activate them. But, if I intentionally "go spatial" first, select a Space and then open a Finder Window (by the way, that term is used in Leopard for Dummies) it will "live" in that Space by the rule you mentioned.

So, I can segregate open Finder Windows in a designated Space, as long as I remember to get myself into that Space before I open another window. What I cannot do is to select a Space to be the only one that Finder Windows can be opened in, as I can do for applications. I'll get the hang of it, eventually.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 15, 2008, 09:15:45 PM

QUOTE(Gregg @ Feb 15 2008, 07:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some Spaces can be empty, of course, in which case you only see the desktop if you click there, and Finder appears in the menu.

Underscore added for emphasis. That would be the "main menu" at the top of the screen

QUOTE(JohnKentucky @ Feb 15 2008, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

there is no such thing as a "Finder" window with the name Finder at the top. Please take a screenshot and show me if there is.

You're referring to the open window's title. I wasn't.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 15, 2008, 09:19:20 PM

Ahh yes. Well, the Finder is the default running program.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 16, 2008, 09:01:18 AM

How's the hospital taking shape down there? I imagine things are a mess around there for now.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: JohnKentucky on February 16, 2008, 04:16:53 PM

Hospital?

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 16, 2008, 04:26:32 PM

Short memory, eh?
Baptist Hospital East

The firm I work for is involved in the expansion project.
You mentioned that you drive by it frequently the last time I asked you about it.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 16, 2008, 06:02:26 PM

Been busy the last few days. Seems like you guys have this problem figured out.

Apparently, I just don't need more than one Space! I use only about 6-7 apps at a time and generally not all at the same time. The most I might have open would be BBEdit, Fetch, Mariner Write, Firefox and Photoshop Elements. But in the background I will also want Excalibur, Speed Download, Typinator, Panda Calendar, Increase and URLM Pro in every Space. At other times I may also have GarageBand, Sound Studio, Epson Print CD and Fetch open (about twice a week for an hour) without Elements and Mariner Write. If I'm just surfing, I'll shutdown BBEdit, Fetch, Mariner Write and Elements. Spaces sounds like a great feature when you work with several distinct and non-overlapping sets of apps. Or a 'power-user' who wants to keep a lot of apps open but not clutter up the Desktop. Neither describes me, I guess. No problem

BTW, I don't know what else to call the windows that Finder creates. Almost every other app I use creates some kind of window, and I refer to those windows by the apps name plus 'window' to differentiate them from other windows. Occasionally, some of them also open 'palates' or secondary windows which are still referred to by the apps name plus the window type or the windows function. Finder is an app, it simply need to be running at all times when one is using the Mac's GUI. You can see that its windows will close when it is 'Relaunched' just like any other apps windows will close when Quit. "Folder window" is fine with me, but they are technically Directory windows, also. At least until you get to the end of the folder/directory path to a file/app/plist/etc. YMMV! Sorry if I confused you, but that's part of my secondary job in keeping you one your toes!

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: krissel on February 17, 2008, 06:20:34 AM

It might be helpful to think of spaces kind of like the separate desktops that appear when you log in and out of account, y'know, that cube that rotates? Whatever is opened while in/on that desktop belongs to that desktop. Of course it isn't exactly the same correlation.

UM, does Leopard still have that cube graphic for changing accounts?

Nother question, what happens if you drag an open Finder/Folder/Directory () window from one space to another?
What happens if you hold down the Option key while dragging?

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Gregg on February 17, 2008, 02:11:29 PM

QUOTE(krissel @ Feb 17 2008, 06:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It might be helpful to think of spaces kind of like the separate desktops that appear when you log in and out of account, y'know, that cube that rotates? Whatever is opened while in/on that desktop belongs to that desktop. Of course it isn't exactly the same correlation.

UM, does Leopard still have that cube graphic for changing accounts?

Nother question, what happens if you drag an open Finder/Folder/Directory () window from one space to another?
What happens if you hold down the Option key while dragging?

No, I don't know. I don't have, need, or want separate accounts. Thus, we don't ever have to login. But, a cube is a useful analogy.

As for the other two questions; I didn't know it was possible to drag anything from one Space to another, but it is! So, if I forget to "get in" the right space before opening another Finder Pane (should we refuse to use that "W" word?) I can drag it over to the one I want it in. Holding down the Option key appears to have no effect.

Title: Spaces: revised
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 17, 2008, 05:03:34 PM

The concept of several windows on the sides of a cube is not my problem. I simply run my sets of apps at one time and the other sets at other times, I don't switch between sets while using any of them (other than using Finder). And since I have a very small set of used apps, anyway, I don't have a problem opening them one at a time, don't even use the Dock for that. But if you can use it, great! If it helps some one and yet it wasn't available, we'd have fewer options. I don't use all the functions of most apps! But I'm still glad they're there and I might need them one day! Always something new to learn!