Post by: fabadelic on February 01, 2008, 10:02:25 PM
The last time I posted I had a problem with vertical lines on my screen. Unlike the ones that hundreds of 17" PB users describe mine were very prettily symmetrical. You nice people (and some others on other sites too) suggested reinstalling my OP system. Ok I did that - no probs, and the lines disappeared...phew! Next...
Due to reinstalling my OP system every time I went online, for days afterwards, I received heaps of software updates...nothing unusual in that except...one day I get a message coming up that I didn't have enough memory in my Start Up disc, exclamation mark, and I'd have to free up some space by deleting files...hmmmmmmmmmmm! Very odd. Plus the vertical lines were back.
To cut a long story short I checked and found that I only had about 50 MB of memory available! Then after much investigation I found a file HD>Library>Packages>JavaSecurityUpdate4.tar which was 47 GB!!!!!!!!! My partner, a PC user, Googled this 'thing' and the only 'thing' he came up with was JavaSecurityUpdate4.dmg (a proper update file). Nothing about this >.tar file. Sooooo, I tried to trash the damn thing, but no way would it go. I got that message up saying it couldn't be trashed because it was in use...but what was it doing? By that stage my PB was seriously choked and chugging. Next...
I started up in Safe Mode (took about 10 minutes!) and finally managed to trash the enormous .tar file. All seems well now, and the vertical lines have disappeared again too.
Do you think that JavaSecurityUpdate4.tar is a disc flooder or a similar virus/malware?
Thanks people, hope to hear from you soon
Post by: Paddy on February 01, 2008, 10:23:10 PM
You can download the real update here: http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/jav...rityupdate.html
Run Software Update - you may not need it, and if you do, you will be informed of that.
BTW - when you restarted after finally getting the offending file stuffed in the trash, and the trash emptied, did you check the free disk space on your HD? I'm actually surprised that your PB would even function with only 50MB of free space on the HD. The rule of thumb is to never go below 10% free space. If you've got an 80GB drive, then that's 8GB free. (approximately)
Post by: fabadelic on February 01, 2008, 10:58:31 PM
QUOTE(Paddy @ Feb 2 2008, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You can download the real update here: http://www.apple.com/support/downloads/jav...rityupdate.html
Run Software Update - you may not need it, and if you do, you will be informed of that.
BTW - when you restarted after finally getting the offending file stuffed in the trash, and the trash emptied, did you check the free disk space on your HD? I'm actually surprised that your PB would even function with only 50MB of free space on the HD. The rule of thumb is to never go below 10% free space. If you've got an 80GB drive, then that's 8GB free. (approximately)
Run Software Update - you may not need it, and if you do, you will be informed of that.
BTW - when you restarted after finally getting the offending file stuffed in the trash, and the trash emptied, did you check the free disk space on your HD? I'm actually surprised that your PB would even function with only 50MB of free space on the HD. The rule of thumb is to never go below 10% free space. If you've got an 80GB drive, then that's 8GB free. (approximately)
Happily I have 47 GB to play with thanks, but yes the poor PB was seriously choked which required a whole lot of patience (not my normal forte). You see the 'choking' happened so quickly it meant that I had to fix it el pronto. All thanks go to my partner who is a typical Mr Fix It. He suggested a virus because he's experienced several similar melt-downs on PCs. I just had to 'translate' what he suggested into Mac language, but that's not as easy as it sounds because I think PCs are incredibly user-unfriendly!As far as the updates are concerned...as you can well imagine I'm just a wee bit nervous about them at the moment! Thanks for the prompt though.
Post by: krissel on February 02, 2008, 12:07:30 AM
I'm thinking somehow the file was corrupt and/or was being interpreted improperly by the system.
My sister recently ran her iBook down to less than 100MB of space and was getting messages about the drive being full. I nearly freaked when she told me that cause you can lose everything by over filling your drive. The OS needs a lot of breathing room for temporary files.
I advised her to dump several apps and the World Book to free up a few G's.
If you are using the Software Update feature, it automatically does a checksum on the file when it is opened. I'm surprised it didn't give you a message that the Java updater did not pass the test. If you are letting Software Update do the installing I'd suggest you only do one or two updates at a time to have more control over what is happening. Then run Permissions in between installs.
Post by: fabadelic on February 03, 2008, 12:04:10 PM
QUOTE(krissel @ Feb 2 2008, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, if you had a Mac virus/malware/trojan you would make history.
I'm thinking somehow the file was corrupt and/or was being interpreted improperly by the system.
If you are letting Software Update do the installing I'd suggest you only do one or two updates at a time to have more control over what is happening. Then run Permissions in between installs.
I'm thinking somehow the file was corrupt and/or was being interpreted improperly by the system.
If you are letting Software Update do the installing I'd suggest you only do one or two updates at a time to have more control over what is happening. Then run Permissions in between installs.
Hmmm old history making me you reckon? Remember I've got 47 GB to play with? Put it this way do you know what JavaSecurityUpdate4.tar is? Nobody seems to know but .tars are ancient files from way back (maybe 15+ years ago?) and yes it came down as a 'normal' Software Update and I only ever download small amounts at a time. It was pretty yucky but the MAIN thing I'm happy about now is NOOOOOOO vertical lines! Seeing as there are so many PB users out there with vertical line probs I just wonder how many may have this .tar thingy onboard? You just never know.
Post by: Paddy on February 03, 2008, 06:22:27 PM
Anyway - the Java update should be installed as it's a security update. You can just download it and make sure it's what it says it is (ie: reasonable size and the .dmg extension) rather than letting Software Update automatically install it if that makes you more comfortable.
Post by: fabadelic on February 04, 2008, 02:27:26 AM
I didn't have a memory problem then, just those darn vertical lines.
If you recall I reinstalled the OP because of the vertical lines - in an attempt to get rid of them - because they persisted after I followed through with all the 'normal' maintenance I was advised to do.
They disappeared when I reinstalled the OP.
Then they coincidently reappeared with the .tar file.
Then when I got rid of the .tar file, the vertical lines disappeared again too.
P.S. I assure you that I will go to the Apple site and download the .dmg, but can you first assure me that it's ok to delete the Previous System folder? There seems no point in keeping it because everything appears to be working ok plus there's no way on earth I'm competent enough to transfer anything from it to the now new system folder.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 04, 2008, 09:53:07 AM
As for the lines, it sounds like your system was simply running out of memory. Even though the screen memory is in RAM, it probably also uses your HD to store temporary ingo/screens for later use. If the HD was as crowded as you indicated, it would have been extremely difficult to do that. Remember that "free space" on the disk is not the same as contiguous free space. It could have easily been impossible to write the temp file needed in the space available and surely much slower as the head moved and searched for those scattered pieces. I suppose the screen display could have also been corrupted by other, perhaps higher priority files using some of that space.
OTOH, the above explanation can be way off the wall!
But I would still leave the Previous System folder alone for a while. You never know...
Post by: Paddy on February 04, 2008, 11:08:45 AM
See: http://www.micromat.com/index.php?option=c...3&Itemid=68
Post by: krissel on February 04, 2008, 10:43:49 PM
And I agree with his suggestion that you hang on to the Previous System for a while longer. It may have some things you could want to transfer. After a few weeks it you find no need for anything there you could delete it.
Now a word from our sponsor... backup, backup, backup.
Actually we don't have a sponsor but it is advice that is often not taken seriously enough. As soon as you have a few bucks extra, get yourself an external drive to which you can backup your data. Or even better, clone your entire system to a FW drive to which you can boot if necessary.
Oh, and don't apologize for being artsy. A good many of the TS members belong to that category as well.
Post by: fabadelic on February 05, 2008, 06:46:01 AM
I had the vertical lines months ago and believe me I DIDN'T have a memory problem then, well at least not one that I noticed! The vertical lines scared the Hell out of me because of all the talk about them on Apple blogs. That time I managed to get rid of them by conducting the whole maintenance kit and caboodle as advised by smart people much like yourselves.
Then a couple of weeks ago the vertical lines came back...pooh! I did all the maintenance again but the lines just wouldn't budge this time. That's why I reinstalled the OP.
"They disappeared when I reinstalled the OP.
Then they coincidently reappeared with the .tar file (which I assume I downloaded as a software update)
Then when I got rid of the .tar file, the vertical lines disappeared again too."
Was that a better explanation?
Post by: krissel on February 05, 2008, 07:38:21 AM
However whether that tar file came corrupted and it was coincidental that it also created a situation resulting in those lines or maybe the underlying problem still exists and it corrupted that file. The answer to that is unknown. Best you can do is monitor the situation, watch your disk space for any repeat of the tar problem and run your maintenance routines regularly.
Just hope that this is a software problem and not hardware. If your video card or cable is flakey that is a lot harder and expensive to fix.
BTW, what is the RAM on that machine? A faulty RAM chip can also signal distorted video though why a reinstall would temporarily fix it is something I can't answer. Just to confirm from the earlier thread, the lines only appear in screensavers? Any other time?
Post by: Paddy on February 05, 2008, 07:39:49 AM
Of course, if you really wanted to test this theory, then you could download some really big files and fill up your HD again!
(But I wouldn't advise that - see the previous notes about data corruption etc.)
Post by: tacit on February 05, 2008, 04:42:12 PM
1. A .tar file is the standard way to make archives on Unix and Linux machines, just like .zip is a standard on Windowqs and .dmg and .sit are standards on Macs. Tar files are occasionally used on Macs, because OS X is built on Unix. Tar files aren't often used by Apple, but remember that Java is not made by Apple, and Apple just passes along Java updates from Sun (the people who created Java).
The file should not have been 47 GB. This is bigger than most laptop hard drives are! A file that shows up as 47 GB in size would be absurd; I would suspect serious disk directory corruption. Check the disk with DiskWarrior or Disk Utility.
2. A pattern of vertical lines on a computer display usually indicates defective hardware--specifically, defective VRAM. Run the Apple Hardware Test CD that came with the computer.
3. In Mac OS X it is not necessary to keep 15% of the drive free. The Micromat page is outdated.
This "requirement" had nothing to do with HFS+. The reason for this requirement had to do with a bug in Mac OS 9. In Mac OS 9, if a file was saved to the disk in many chunks, and the part of the directory that keeps track of multiple chunks of a file needed to be expanded but could not because there was not enough contiguous free space available, the Mac OS 9 File Manager would not return an error message. Instead, it would stomp all over the extents allocation table. This was an OS 9 flaw that has been fixed in OS X. In OS X, this will never happen. If this situation arises, you will not lose data--you will just see an error message telling you that the file could not be saved. (This has been extensively discussed, including by a Micromat technician, over on the MacFixIt forums.)
OS X requires at least 5 GB free on a startup volume, because the virtual memory system can allocate, at most, 5 GB of swap space. In addition, as you work with programs, you need enough space to be able to save your files and so on. But the requirement to keep 15% of the drive free--which was always more of a guideline than a rule anyway--is no longer relevant to OS X. Even if you use OS 9; in OS 9, it still uses the OS X File Manager to save files. The rule is only relevant for computers booted into OS 9.
Post by: Paddy on February 05, 2008, 05:41:47 PM
http://www.micromat.com/index.php?option=c...&id=764#764 (and also see the "Why Defrag" link in the post) And has the way Tiger/Leopard handled swap files changed any?
Also, in order for Virtual Memory in OS X to work correctly (again according to Micromat) there should be 4X the amount of installed RAM.
Anyway - it's indeed possible that this is an (intermittent) hardware issue as I noted above, and it may or may not show up on the Hardware test.
There ARE issues with the 17" Powerbook screens - that is well documented, though Apple has refused to acknowledge it - but usually the lines appear and continue to get worse, not appear, then disappear for weeks. So, not sure if this is related or not. A few things that those posting on the Apple forums have noted (including that it is NOT the video RAM):
QUOTE
maybe that's important for the records (e.g. the apple guys reading this discussion), but i guess every user here with a defect screen has already tried this:
- capturing a screenshot shows no defects on the resulting image (shift-cmd-3) -> the video memory is not affected
- the same is when connecting to an external display, no visible defects on the external screen (both in mirrored and extended desktop mode), the defect on the built-in screen stays
- the lines on the built-in display stay in their position even when changing the screen resolution
- the lines are visible from the 1st second the screen comes on when booting until the display goes to sleep or the computer shuts down
- the lines are visible no matter which user logs in, the lines are ALWAYS there
- the lines stay there no matter at what angle i open the display -> no weak/loose contact
- capturing a screenshot shows no defects on the resulting image (shift-cmd-3) -> the video memory is not affected
- the same is when connecting to an external display, no visible defects on the external screen (both in mirrored and extended desktop mode), the defect on the built-in screen stays
- the lines on the built-in display stay in their position even when changing the screen resolution
- the lines are visible from the 1st second the screen comes on when booting until the display goes to sleep or the computer shuts down
- the lines are visible no matter which user logs in, the lines are ALWAYS there
- the lines stay there no matter at what angle i open the display -> no weak/loose contact
Dennis Wingo, posting in this Apple thread seems to have identified at least one source of the problem:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?t...15&tstart=0
(read about half way down to see his post - he's also got links to photos of what causes the issue - a pinched cable)
Post by: krissel on February 05, 2008, 10:41:09 PM
OSX is very good at assigning memory to applications as well as the system and reserving memory for recently opened applications that you may want to open again. The system may also be accumulating large caches while running so free space is necessary.
Here are some common recommendations:
QUOTE
# Check to make sure that your hard drive has at least 5% if not 10% of it's capacity available for use.
# You should have at *least* 500MB to 1GB of free space at all times.
# Swapfiles can eat up disk space quickly - 2GB or more of swap files is not unrealistic. Restarting will temporarily get rid of all swap files, but they'll come back.
# You should have at *least* 500MB to 1GB of free space at all times.
# Swapfiles can eat up disk space quickly - 2GB or more of swap files is not unrealistic. Restarting will temporarily get rid of all swap files, but they'll come back.
http://www.entourage.mvps.org/faq_topic/performance2.html
Hard drive directory damage is random, cumulative, and it doesn't heal itself. It can result in corrupted files, kernel panics and eventually a hosed system. This may have been what caused the tar file problem but there is no way of knowing at this point.
As to the video lines, if they return connect your PB to an external monitor and see if they still exist. If not you may have tracked the problem down to a bad cable. If they still exist the possibility is still there of a flakey video card as mentioned by several people earlier. The Apple hardware tests are not the total answer as they often don't find an existing problem. But as a first check it wouldn't hurt. If they do indicate a bad part then most likely it is so. But a clean test does not necessarily mean those parts are really OK. Countless people have had their RAM passed by those tests only to later be found as the culprit in active problems.
Whether your problem is the same as those on the other boards is not clear. Is your serial number in the W8525 series?
Is this only with screen savers? If so, which ones? Could those files be corrupted? Bad RAM can cause file corruption as well as directory problems. You might try removing the present screensavers that you are using and get new ones.
Many possibilities here. Easy target is the video card/cable. But trying other fixes first is cheaper.
Post by: tacit on February 06, 2008, 03:05:56 PM
QUOTE(Paddy @ Feb 5 2008, 11:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Um...Micromat still thinks you need 15% free (unless they've changed their minds in the last year or so). See:
http://www.micromat.com/index.php?option=c...&id=764#764 (and also see the "Why Defrag" link in the post) And has the way Tiger/Leopard handled swap files changed any?
http://www.micromat.com/index.php?option=c...&id=764#764 (and also see the "Why Defrag" link in the post) And has the way Tiger/Leopard handled swap files changed any?
Micromat's Web site still cntains that misinformation, but MicroMat Tech 3 on MFI has said it is not accurate. In particular, the part of the problem that led to this rule is the fact that in OS 9, if the Extents Overflow file (which must be contiguous) has to grow, but there is not enough room for it to grow, then the File Manager will overwrite the first part of the Extents Overflow file. This results in loss of data on the disk.
OS X does not do this, though unfortunately the fact that OS 9 did has left an indelible footprint on the Mac community that seems inaccessible to any light of disproof. In OS X, if the Extents Overflow file needs to expand, but there is not enough room to expand, the operating system returns an error and the file is not written. The existing information in the Extents Overflow file is not destroyed. Micromat Tech 3, in a thread on MacFixIt, has confirmed that this is the case. I can not answer why the outdated information that applies only to OS 9 is still present on Micromat's Web site in regards to OS X.
QUOTE
Also, in order for Virtual Memory in OS X to work correctly (again according to Micromat) there should be 4X the amount of installed RAM.
4X the amount of installed RAM or 5 GB, whichever is smaller. Mac OS X does not use more than 5 GB of swap space; this is the maximum size to which all swap files combined are allowed to grow. In this MacFixIt thread, MicroMat Tech 3 begins by saying that the amount of free space must be 4x the amount of RAM and that virtual memory swap files must be contiguous, then later after more research retracts both statements. Mac OS X virtual memory swap files do not need to be located on contiguous free space, and the maximum combined size to which they grow is no more than 4x the size of RAM or 5 GB total, whichever is smaller.
Mac OS X assigns swap files of increasing size, the first and smallest of which is 64MB in size. OS X's page manager can create at most eight swap files, no more. As they are created, they are 64 MB, 64 MB, 128 MB, 256 MB, 512 MB, 1 GB, 1 GB, 1 GB in size. At this point, the system will not allocate any more swap files. Therefore, adding the sizes of these swap files together, the system will never create more than a total of 5 GB of swap files, regardless of how much memory is installed. (This is confirmed on my Mac Pro, which has 5 GB of RAM but still never uses more than 5 GB of hard disk space for swap.)
QUOTE
Anyway - it's indeed possible that this is an (intermittent) hardware issue as I noted above, and it may or may not show up on the Hardware test.
There ARE issues with the 17" Powerbook screens - that is well documented, though Apple has refused to acknowledge it - but usually the lines appear and continue to get worse, not appear, then disappear for weeks. So, not sure if this is related or not. A few things that those posting on the Apple forums have noted (including that it is NOT the video RAM):
There ARE issues with the 17" Powerbook screens - that is well documented, though Apple has refused to acknowledge it - but usually the lines appear and continue to get worse, not appear, then disappear for weeks. So, not sure if this is related or not. A few things that those posting on the Apple forums have noted (including that it is NOT the video RAM):
QUOTE
maybe that's important for the records (e.g. the apple guys reading this discussion), but i guess every user here with a defect screen has already tried this:
- capturing a screenshot shows no defects on the resulting image (shift-cmd-3) -> the video memory is not affected
- the same is when connecting to an external display, no visible defects on the external screen (both in mirrored and extended desktop mode), the defect on the built-in screen stays
- the lines on the built-in display stay in their position even when changing the screen resolution
- the lines are visible from the 1st second the screen comes on when booting until the display goes to sleep or the computer shuts down
- the lines are visible no matter which user logs in, the lines are ALWAYS there
- the lines stay there no matter at what angle i open the display -> no weak/loose contact
- capturing a screenshot shows no defects on the resulting image (shift-cmd-3) -> the video memory is not affected
- the same is when connecting to an external display, no visible defects on the external screen (both in mirrored and extended desktop mode), the defect on the built-in screen stays
- the lines on the built-in display stay in their position even when changing the screen resolution
- the lines are visible from the 1st second the screen comes on when booting until the display goes to sleep or the computer shuts down
- the lines are visible no matter which user logs in, the lines are ALWAYS there
- the lines stay there no matter at what angle i open the display -> no weak/loose contact
This sounds like a cabling error or a hardware failure in the display itself, rather than in VRAM, to me.