Post by: Paddy on August 18, 2008, 03:40:54 PM
http://blog.chooseresponsibility.org/cr-ne...d-our-response/
Interesting debate - fraught with a lot of confusing statistics (each group tending to use whichever stats support their argument - no surprise there).
Having lived for 16 years in the US and constantly read about the university campus binge drinking and also knowing of the death of a 16-year-old high school student in North Andover due to binge drinking at a party in a private home, I can't say that I'm in any way convinced that the higher drinking age in the US is beneficial. In all other ways you are considered an adult at the age of 18 (can be drafted/enlist, can vote, can drive, can sign legal contracts etc.) but...you cannot drink. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
The statistics show that Canada's drunk driving fatalities dropped in the period of 1993-2003, as did the US rates. (no age ranges were cited) Canada has drinking ages that vary by province - either 18 or 19. I favor 19, as it generally eliminates all legal drinking for high school age kids.
Other statistics:
http://www.monash.edu.au/muarc/reports/papers/fatals.html
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810801.PDF
However, I'm also leaning in favor of raising the driving age to 18 - most of the countries with the lowest accident fatality rates have minimum driving ages of 18.
Post by: krissel on August 19, 2008, 03:11:14 AM
Re the drinking age: Since drinking has no necessity in life other than making you more social or 'happy', placing regulations on it should not cause so much dissent. It's not like driving which is the only way some people can get to work, buy groceries, etc.
No I'm not a teetotaler. Though I don't drink much now, I surely had my share in my college years ('Beer Queen of Kappa Sigma'). At the time NJ had a drinking age of 21 and where I went to college (Syracuse) the age was 18. But the campus itself was "dry" which meant that you either had to get a permit to have a wet party on campus or you went to a local facility to hold your events (what we usually did). Sure people snuck a six pack or two into their dorm or frat or sorority but we kept it minor. Most of the drunkiness was at the off campus parties and driving was an issue then. I remember walking about 3 miles in the snow and dark back to campus because my date was drunk and I refused to get in the car. (no money for a taxi)
And then there was the approved party between our sorority and a fraternity that was ended at a specific hour due to the agreed regulations. At the close of the party some of the sisters were going to go out for a late snack with some of the brothers but we had a curfew that night which was enforced, thank goodness. The brothers went out to a local diner anyway and the car they were driving flipped on its side and hit a pole. The driver was seriously injured but all four passengers were killed, one was decapitated.
A few years later I heard the driver had committed suicide.
That lesson has made me very unsympathetic to anyone who dares to get behind the wheel after drinking. People don't reach maturity in body and especially mind until their mid 20's and just because we allow individuals to sign contracts at 18 doesn't mean we need to give them the right to take innocent people's lives. There is way too much acquiescence to youth today to give them anything they want or think they are due.
Post by: Gregg on August 19, 2008, 07:01:16 AM
I drink wine on rare occasions, and I don't like beer. I refuse to "conform" to the social scene and "acquire" a taste for something I don't like. I wouldn't do that for broccoli!
I have no problem with restrictions on drinking. There aren't enough restrictions. Until drunk driving is eliminated, alcohol has a bad name in my book, period. Of course, drunk people do other stupid and harmful things without using a vehicle. It's too bad so many people can't drink responsibly. They ruin it for everyone else.
Post by: gunug on August 19, 2008, 08:00:31 AM
Post by: kimmer on August 20, 2008, 01:30:57 PM
QUOTE
There is way too much acquiescence to youth today to give them anything they want or think they are due.
Here! Here!
Drinking is an OPTION, it's not a NEED.
Did I drink before I was 21? Yeah, I managed; but I always kept it under control. Even after I was 21 I kept my drinking under control. Moderation in one's life is the key to enjoying most everything -- not that I follow this advice in all areas.
I'm definitely NOT in favor of lowering the drinking age; and like krissel, think we should consider raising the driving age -- and maybe a few other limits as well. They all used to be 21 (at least in Illinois when I grew up) and it didn’t hurt me one little bit to wait and anticipate (and cheat).
Post by: JoeDu on August 20, 2008, 01:42:56 PM
So if I'm going to support that, I'd also support a very strict "probation" period until the age of 21. Meaning, one strike, one DWI, you're out. Your license is revoked until the age of 21 and some other things, like special drivers ed courses.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on August 20, 2008, 08:21:35 PM
So far, the "reasons" for lowering the drinking age would be just as valid for lowering it to 16, 14, and why stop there?!!
Post by: gunug on August 20, 2008, 08:32:09 PM
Post by: krissel on August 21, 2008, 02:38:35 AM
Unfortunately being killed by a drunk driver isn't.
Post by: JoeDu on August 21, 2008, 08:24:23 AM
QUOTE(krissel @ Aug 21 2008, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The old line about 'dying for our country' was valid back when there was a draft. No more. Joining the service is a choice now.
It's still valid, since at 18 folks can and do die for your freedoms. We teach and train them to use the most technologically advanced weaponry and machinery to kill enemy combatants and they die defending US interests. But no, folks of that age should not be allowed to buy a bottle of wine. They can't handle it.QUOTE(krissel @ Aug 21 2008, 07:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Unfortunately being killed by a drunk driver isn't.
3 out of 4 (75%) of drunk driving fatalities are committed by folks well over the legal drinking age. Is a return to prohibition in order?
Post by: chriskleeman on August 21, 2008, 11:54:55 AM
I've been watching this thread, and I'd like to try to give a bit of perspective, Midwest style. I come from Ohio, that's where I grew up, and while I didn't grow up on a working farm, where I live now is just as rural. The values are just as country as where I was reared, and I went through part of the whole 18 year old drinking age debate at the time I grew up. And I also shoveled a lot of horse stalls to make money when I was a kid, which made me pretty thirsty sometimes!
In Ohio, when I was 18, we could drink "near bear" at 3.2% alcohol. That, of course, didn't stop some of us from procuring other, more potent forms of alcohol from different folks we all knew. That being said, I had my share of Boone's Farm and other disgusting stuff, of course not being satisfied with 3.2 beer. Were we able to handle it? Probably not. But, at that time, in the late 60's, 18 year olds all over the country were being drafted and sent to Viet Nam, and the debate raged over whether one should be drafted into service and not be able to drink. I'm not being political here, just describing a cultural phenomenon of that time.
Now, please bear with me. When the original driving ages in most states were set, we were an agrarian society in most rural areas in the country, while in other parts, our country was in an industrial revolution. Most of the reason for early driving ages happened to be because those in rural areas needed to have offspring who could drive a truck or a car to help on the farm, drive cattle and product to market, operate the tractor, etc. At that time, culturally, families were huge, and everyone contributed, and had to help out to insure the survival of the family. Here in Vermont, driving permits are available at the age of 15.
Fast-forward to present day life. Oh, my what a difference! This is a most coddled young generation, with little work ethic (just one man's opinion), and an incredible sense of entitlement. And much of the time, that sense of entitlement extends to most things, including alcohol and other substances. These kids grew up with it, from their parents, or the parents of their friends, much of the time. But that sense of entitlement doesn't stop with substances, it goes to the heart of much of our culture. We have smaller families for the most part, and most kids in this generation grew up without any sense of the urgency of survival, everything is pretty much just handed to them.
So, in some respects, our present culture has very much set the stage for this debate.
Now, to be sure, I would not think that it's a great idea to give this entitled generation the right to drink at 18. But, like many of us did, they're going to go out and get it anyway, with the help of their older friends, etc. I think that the present debate at the college level is that by making it legal to procure alcohol at 18, it can be more easily regulated and controlled. I'm definitely not sure about that!
So, to tie this all together, I know for my daughter, driving was all about independence, all about the freedom to go places when, where and with whom she wanted to. In Vermont, the first 6 months a driver has their license under the age of 18, the only passengers permitted in the vehicle with them would be an unimpaired person who would need to be at least 25 years old for the first three months. After that, the state allows siblings to be transported in the vehicle, for the next three months. Then, after this six month probationary period, there are no more restrictions on the driver. It's what's referred to as a "Graduated License" It was quite entertaining at times watching her and her friends figure out who had their licenses for long enough to cart everyone around!
We're very lucky, she doesn't do drugs, she doesn't drink most of the time, as she certainly doesn't ever get behind the wheel after even consuming a 1/2 glass of wine at dinner. Which she does, by the way, very very infrequently. And she is now 19. And she learned about alcohol consumption at home, not from her friends!
So, kids don't need to drive tractors and trucks much any more in a lot of places, but we still have enough farms in Vermont that the seemingly low permit age still makes sense here. But that has now become the exception, and not the rule.
But that being said, I don't see a lot of maturity from many of the younger folks I know and meet around here, and I doubt that most of them would have much good sense about drinking, or especially drinking and driving until they get much older. Yes, that's a value judgment, but I think many in the present younger generation need a few more years before they should be able to buy alcohol on their own.
Perhaps those in the service of our country should be able to consume alcohol at 18 on base? Or where they are deployed? I don't know, this is still a very fuzzy area, but I do concede there may be room for discussion about this.
Maybe this makes me an old fuddy-duddy!
So, how about some of our younger members chiming in on this one?
Anyway, just one perspective of many.
Chris K
Post by: Gregg on August 21, 2008, 07:48:43 PM
Chris, not having been in the military... Do you know if there are penalties for military personnel being drunk? Does it matter if they're "on duty" or "off duty"?
Related to that last question: I hope more of the armed forces show up for work than the employees of the VA!
Post by: kimmer on August 21, 2008, 08:29:34 PM
QUOTE(chriskleeman @ Aug 21 2008, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[deleted some really good stuff]
Fast-forward to present day life. Oh, my what a difference! This is a most coddled young generation, with little work ethic (just one man's opinion), and an incredible sense of entitlement. And much of the time, that sense of entitlement extends to most things, including alcohol and other substances. These kids grew up with it, from their parents, or the parents of their friends, much of the time. But that sense of entitlement doesn't stop with substances, it goes to the heart of much of our culture. We have smaller families for the most part, and most kids in this generation grew up without any sense of the urgency of survival, everything is pretty much just handed to them.
So, in some respects, our present culture has very much set the stage for this debate.
Fast-forward to present day life. Oh, my what a difference! This is a most coddled young generation, with little work ethic (just one man's opinion), and an incredible sense of entitlement. And much of the time, that sense of entitlement extends to most things, including alcohol and other substances. These kids grew up with it, from their parents, or the parents of their friends, much of the time. But that sense of entitlement doesn't stop with substances, it goes to the heart of much of our culture. We have smaller families for the most part, and most kids in this generation grew up without any sense of the urgency of survival, everything is pretty much just handed to them.
So, in some respects, our present culture has very much set the stage for this debate.
Fantastic post, Chris!
Post by: RNKIII on August 21, 2008, 08:32:08 PM
question; are/were there penalties for being drunk in the military?? yes (applied - NOT that I ever saw)
question; does it matter if they are 'on/off' duty?? yes (applied - NOT that I ever saw)
Ritual - "get the 'new guy' puking drunk the first night he's is on base, so he has to sleep with one arm on the wall and one leg on the floor so he can keep the 3-story barracks building from spinning.... (Didn't work - it spun anyway!!)
Ritual - be sure the CO2 fire extinguishers on all vehicles are fully charged prior to deployment to the country side because they are great for cooling the beer stored in the 'empty' footlocker in the back of the LT's jeep.
Receive call in the middle of the night, as team leader, that one of your 'techs' is screaming drunk on the top of a nearby Gausthuse and the Politzi are about to shoot his Texas a$$ off that roof if he keeps raining those red clay tile down on them. (He went home on a 30-day R&R the next day).
Bob K. rnkiii
Post by: krissel on August 22, 2008, 02:31:40 AM
I can understand an earlier driving age in a state like Vermont, Maine, Wyoming, etc. where there is little traffic. I've lived in central NJ all my life (except for college) and negotiating the roads around here is mind boggling. I could imagine very few kids that are really ready to get behind the wheel at age 16 in this day and age and cope with NJ highways. It's all the more telling that most of the school systems dropped driver education due to the out of sight auto insurance that was necessary to cover 16-17 year olds in a car. Now kids either are taught by their parents or they go to a private driving school. I'm afraid that hasn't helped things any.
At least we have a graduated program with restrictions on the time of day you can drive, who can be in the car, etc.
You don't get a full regular license until 18.
http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/Licenses/EarlyBird.htm#a2
The military is open to youth for two main reasons: physical ability and ease of training and 'control'.
The first is obvious. The second refers to the fact that many at an early age have not formed the ability to question authority under controlled conditions. They are easily trained to do what is expected of them by their officers. Those who developed a contrarian attitude in school (quite prevalent these days) would not enter the service or would (should) be rejected or let go. You will find the majority of enlistments are from those who do not go to higher education or find good paying jobs. The opposite end of the spectrum are those who graduate from the military academies. I believe today there is more of a gap between officers and enlisted men than there was during the draft.
Yes, an 18 year old may learn to drive an M1 tank and operate it on the battlefield but that doesn't mean they can handle drinking. Alcohol is a drug that affects the mind and body of all ages but the brain does not really fully develop the ability to think ahead and anticipate the unexpected until age 20-25. The prefrontal cortex which has control over impulses is not mature in the teen age years. Emotional stability, complex reasoning and thoughtful behavior don't really form until after age 20. Of course this is a generalization and individuals will vary one way or the other. But considering the consequences of trusting that those who will drink are those who develop early is rolling dice on a table full of holes.
Hmm, now that I think about it, maybe I will borrow one of those M1 tanks for my next drive down Route 78.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on August 22, 2008, 09:38:13 AM
QUOTE
3 out of 4 (75%) of drunk driving fatalities are committed by folks well over the legal drinking age.
And even worse, it seems that the majority of the deaths involving a drunk has the drunk as the only survivor. May not be factual but don't try to tell that to the grieving families.
Post by: krissel on August 29, 2008, 01:33:40 AM
Look for the program in your area.
http://www.cpbn.org/program/parents-and-te...d-wheel-preview
http://www.cptv2.org/btw/
Post by: Highmac on August 29, 2008, 05:40:43 AM
In the UK, you can ride a moped (under 50cc and top speed of 30mph) at 16. You can get a provisional licence for a car at 17; you have to have L-plates front and rear and always be accompanied by someone who is over 21 and held a full licence for three years. Same age for motorcycles up to 33bhp. Most other vehicles - large lorries, buses, larger motorcycles it's 21 (although 18-year-olds in the armed forces can drive trucks of any size with a trailer).
British government link to what you can drive when.
On topic - age to buy alcohol here is 18, but many shops and bars insist on ID "if you look under 21" or even 25 in some cases.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on August 29, 2008, 11:41:30 AM
QUOTE
many shops and bars insist on ID
It's mandatory in most states. The problem comes when the clerk has to do the math! 
.nono: Some stores have tried to make it easier by posting the latest date that would make some one 18 + a day based on the current date. Tip: Always count your change!