Post by: sandbox on August 28, 2008, 03:11:57 AM
No I don't want to PM someone about this, I would like to know who was offended and why.
Post by: krissel on August 28, 2008, 03:46:04 AM
As you know, we do prefer to use a light hand here. Once the admins have discussed this, the status of that thread may change as long as it doesn't deteriorate in the future.
Regarding the 270 "please"s, I'm not sure why such an eco-friendly guy would waste so many electrons?
Post by: sandbox on August 28, 2008, 06:05:50 AM
QUOTE(krissel @ Aug 28 2008, 04:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It was temporarily locked since the thread was starting to go off...well, who knows where.
As you know, we do prefer to use a light hand here. Once the admins have discussed this, the status of that thread may change as long as it doesn't deteriorate in the future.
Regarding the 270 "please"s, I'm not sure why such an eco-friendly guy would waste so many electrons?
As you know, we do prefer to use a light hand here. Once the admins have discussed this, the status of that thread may change as long as it doesn't deteriorate in the future.
Regarding the 270 "please"s, I'm not sure why such an eco-friendly guy would waste so many electrons?
I just put it there as a funny, my efforts to return and edit it faced this:
QUOTE
The error returned was:
Sorry, this topic has been locked
Sorry, this topic has been locked
so I wasn't able to edit it and leave the link as I planned.
As far as a light hand goes, I don't see the issue, it was a play on words, the wankel that I added is actually the name of the german who invented the engine, and the Pleases was nothing more than a translation resource.
If someone is offended by anything I've posted I apologize. Please remove those posts.
Post by: Buck on August 28, 2008, 08:24:13 AM
whatever became of it? It seemed at the time to hold so much promise.
Post by: gunug on August 28, 2008, 08:48:00 AM
QUOTE
I remember the Wankel Rotory engine.
whatever became of it? It seemed at the time to hold so much promise.
whatever became of it? It seemed at the time to hold so much promise.
I think MAZDA is still doing things with it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Wankel_engine
Post by: Jack W on August 28, 2008, 08:48:36 AM
Keep up the good work Admins!
- Jack
Post by: gunug on August 28, 2008, 08:49:38 AM
Post by: Mayo on August 28, 2008, 10:23:54 AM
Was it that people were wasting precious "electrons"/bandwidth on something frivolous? (What a quaint idea! Wasting bandwidth in the Age of Broadband!)
We're we in danger of having too much... GASP!... fun here at TS?
The worse thing that can be said about it is that it is more appropriate in the "community" section of the board.
I suggest that the admins take a deep breath and reconsider whether it is really in the best interest of TS to squash whatever life remains here. This latest example of "light-handed" moderation is really perplexing to me... Good Work it is not.
Post by: gunug on August 28, 2008, 10:41:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHzeGEHWMjo
Post by: chriskleeman on August 28, 2008, 11:01:09 AM
We're working on it. If I made a mistake, then so be it. It hit me the wrong way last night when I read it. It's Kimmer's thread, and as far as I'm concerned she has the final say on it. She hasn't weighed in yet. I'm not trying to be the fun police, as you can see from some of the replies I've made on other topics. I felt there was an underlying issue last night that bordered on one of our TS guidelines, and I've emailed Kim about it.
Just tryin' to do my job here, boss... if I have overreached, then we will open it back up for discussion.
I'm far from perfect, for sure.
Best,
CK
Post by: kimmer on August 28, 2008, 12:30:28 PM
As far as the thread goes, I thought some folks were upset over my use of the word "wonky", and I really wanted the thread to just disappear if that was the case. I'll admit I didn't know "wonky" had any meaning other than what I intended it to convey. I sure didn't know about some of its courser meanings, but I'm discovering that just about every word has a perverted, debase and/or demeaning definition these days. Folks minds must all run in the gutter.
SB, if that site had listed a bazillion ways to say "I give up", I would have posted the link.
Maybe all of this should wind up in community?
And if you're going to talk about cars then I'm outta here to take my VW on a cruise down the coast (this car hugs the road and takes those hairpin curves like they were straight shots -- and I'm having a blast driving!)
Y'all quit fighting or I *will* take away your toys and send y'all to your rooms without supper!
Kim
PS: I'm laughing at myself ... where I typed non instead of noun! HAHAHAHAHA
Post by: Mayo on August 28, 2008, 01:45:46 PM
The inner-workings of the admin inner-circle have always been a tad mysterious to me... and it seems to be intentionally set-up to keep it that way. I was around before TechSurvivors morphed into TechSurvivors, but since I am not part of the "in" group I learned over the years that I don't really have a say in who becomes an administrator, what rules are devised and how they are enforced and I don't feel particularly welcome to add my two cents when I disagree with a decision. I feel that I could be risking my future participation here at TS just by writing this post... And I don't think that I am paranoid.
What I find particularly troubling is that admins and members alike will confide their personal opinions in a PM to me but when it comes to discussing it publicly it Just Isn't Done beyond a perfunctory explanation posted by an administrator. Case Closed.
And while Kim may want a "protector" (against what exactly in this case?) there must be at least a few of us who do not require such a high-level of protection to guard us against being offended. Aren't we all adults here? Haven't we proven ourselves worthy of a little more slack and a little less surrogate parenting? Have some of us become so sensitive that we will take offense at the slightest perceived provocation? Tell me it isn't so!
In all the years that I have been a part of TS I can recall only a handful of times that someone intentionally crossed the line. In those situations it was usually readily apparent that action had to be taken and I generally had no problem with how things were resolved. But there have been more than a few times when the infraction was obviously unintentional and I felt that the response by administrators was capricious. I think that this is one of those situations...
Now I have been around the Web for over ten years and I have participated in a LOT of online forums. And it is a sad fact of life that more than a few of them have their share of trolls, discourteous people and folks who apparently fell asleep when punctuation and grammar were being taught in elementary school... So I have valued the lack of same here at TS: we tend to attract mature adults who try to reign-in their personality quirks (most of the time anyway...) so we can come together to discuss Mac technical issues.
Unfortunately, what makes TS a more pleasant forum for its members can also foster an atmosphere of oppression if taken too far, particularly if the administration process is essentially closed to the membership. Again, TechSurvivors has been structured in such a way that administrators exercise total control over the board and members have very limited input. And it would seem that a lot of people prefer it that way, but how would we really know because as far as I know the members have never been polled regarding how TS should be run?
I Know, I Know... a democratically-based system can be messy and a few people may even be offended by some of the ideas expressed by others. And some people actually prefer a tightly-controlled environment (particularly those who are doing the controlling...) because it somehow makes them feel... safer.
You know how it makes me feel? Sad, and a little disappointed that we cannot seem to do better here at TS.
Post by: sandbox on August 28, 2008, 03:32:13 PM
Having lived in worked in New Hampshire I had acquire a Taste for the use of "Wicked" a familiar term in your neck of the woods, that I'm sure you're aware of. A term no one can explain, that has a history going back to the 17th century, and some say has its roots in Salem, just across the border. I'm better now, accept when I visit the old homestead and find myself among the "Wicked" people.
Wonky is no different, and playing with Wonky people is no different than playing with Wicked people, it's just a matter of location and culture and fun.
Maybe they don't use Wonky in Texas as someone had pointed out, I'm sure Texas has it's own cultural expressions buried deep inside its Bean Dip.
Mayo, in your explanation you point out how some don't quite respect the language as you would, dots Left out just ain't Right, and that posture in and of itself can be offensive to those who care. I couldn't care less but have tried to pay attention for the sake of kBear's grinding teeth. I suspect that you sense what I'm trying to express here, but taking shots at dots and dashes kindof puts you in the same coral as the admins. I've not needed to be a writer; I've had secretaries that could take dictation. Some folks never wrote aLick before word processing and I can't imagine what the Internet would look like if not for Spell Check. If you were an administrator would you score points on punctuation?
Kim, there was no offense intended, and there is nothing wrong with Wonky, so Wonk-on!!
Yes, the Mazda goes hummmmmm. And like some, that ad was very effective, stuck in my head for what, 35 years now? As soon as I saw wankel in the Wonky explanation, the tune popped up and my contribution became clear.
Post by: Mayo on August 28, 2008, 04:01:28 PM
QUOTE
... but taking shots at dots and dashes kindof puts you in the same coral as the admins...
Not at all... It wasn't a "shot" directed at anyone: I find written text that lacks capitalization, punctuation, paragraph-breaks and the like difficult to read and it can often take significant effort just to comprehend it... And when it is someone posting a query desiring the good will and valuable time of others to read and answer? I just pass those posts by... I can generally tell when the person is not a native speaker (a quick check of their profile can usually verify it...) or their spell-checker was temporarily disabled and they get a "pass" from me. (There is a big difference between occasional errors and a post that is nothing but errors...) But the Chronically Lazy who just can't be bothered to make it easier for their readers by following the generally accepted guidelines for composing a sentence? I let others deal with them... I don't think that they need to be censored or banned.
QUOTE
If you were an administrator would you score points on punctuation?
Now why do I have the feeling that this is a cheap shot fired in my direction? I imagine that anything I might write would just get me more of the same... I'm really disappointed SB. I have no problem defending my position but that isn't worthy of a response.
If this level of discourse continues this thread will be locked-up tighter than a drum in no time...
Perhaps I was wrong and we aren't capable of doing better here!
Post by: Xairbusdriver on August 28, 2008, 06:09:39 PM
QUOTE
whatever became of it?
I think some found it to be wonky. 
I'm SORRY! Really, I just couldn't help myself. Actually, my wicked half made me doit! Yeah, that's it!!!
Texting is such a great means of communicating. All the nuances of speech; volume, tone, speed, facial cues, etc. with 26 simple characters and 10 numerals. Never a mistake. Always clear. yada, yada, yada. Ask Bloomberg about text mistakes!
"Steve is Dead!""What?"
"Oops. I didn't know that thing was connected to the interweb!!" 
Will some one call "Time!"
Or maybe Newsweek...GROUP HUG!
Next problem, please.
Post by: sandbox on August 28, 2008, 08:11:18 PM
QUOTE(Mayo @ Aug 28 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
... but taking shots at dots and dashes kindof puts you in the same coral as the admins...
Not at all... It wasn't a "shot" directed at anyone: I find written text that lacks capitalization, punctuation, paragraph-breaks and the like difficult to read and it can often take significant effort just to comprehend it... And when it is someone posting a query desiring the good will and valuable time of others to read and answer? I just pass those posts by... I can generally tell when the person is not a native speaker (a quick check of their profile can usually verify it...) or their spell-checker was temporarily disabled and they get a "pass" from me. (There is a big difference between occasional errors and a post that is nothing but errors...) But the Chronically Lazy who just can't be bothered to make it easier for their readers by following the generally accepted guidelines for composing a sentence? I let others deal with them... I don't think that they need to be censored or banned.
QUOTE
If you were an administrator would you score points on punctuation?
Now why do I have the feeling that this is a cheap shot fired in my direction? I imagine that anything I might write would just get me more of the same... I'm really disappointed SB. I have no problem defending my position but that isn't worthy of a response.
If this level of discourse continues this thread will be locked-up tighter than a drum in no time...
Perhaps I was wrong and we aren't capable of doing better here!
Well... actually there was suppose to be a Smiley after that point, but it makes for a good argument. I apologize for disappointing you, that wasn't my intent.
If the level of discourse offends some but not others should there be a hard-line or soft-line drawn? We can test the system with this thread, where is that mysterious line in the sandbox?
Do Smileys make a difference? Really? Why be offended by a question about punctuation? If it is important or even central to your argument, my question shouldn't offend you, but inspire you to further your argument. For example, I haven't given much thought about writing and the lack of respect one might sense when laziness is detected. I suppose if laziness in writing is a reflection of a person's character as a whole, and one doesn't like lazy people, it could be an issue to a moderator that runs on efficiency. But wouldn't assuming that a lazy person is behind the alphabet be a long leap?
How about those who strain the language with the use of a vocabulary that is rarely seen? Is it disrespectful to make a point more complicated with the over descriptive language?
Post by: kimmer on August 28, 2008, 09:37:03 PM
QUOTE(Mayo @ Aug 28 2008, 11:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And while Kim may want a "protector" (against what exactly in this case?)
Okay, let me smack myself ... .... really a poor choice of a word, and now everything is all (dare I say this?) ... catty whompus. All I meant was I wasn't here, Chris was and he wanted to try to respect my request to let the whole wonky thing drop. I don't see how we can fault him for doing what he thought was the right thing. Since I started the mess, I'm gonna go reopen the thread -- and NOT because I think Chris was wrong, because I don't. I'm gonna reopen it because I'm here and Chris isn't and maybe reopening it will help all this to die down. QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Aug 28 2008, 04:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Texting is such a great means of communicating. All the nuances of speech; volume, tone, speed, facial cues, etc. with 26 simple characters and 10 numerals. Never a mistake. Always clear. yada, yada, yada. Ask Bloomberg about text mistakes!
ROFL! Well said.
QUOTE(sandbox @ Aug 28 2008, 01:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Kim, there was no offense intended, and there is nothing wrong with Wonky, so Wonk-on!!
Okay ... and thanks.
QUOTE
Yes, the Mazda goes hummmmmm. And like some, that ad was very effective, stuck in my head for what, 35 years now?
Yeesh, I'd managed to forget that ad, and now it's been running through my brain all day. Most annoying.
Post by: chriskleeman on August 29, 2008, 12:13:25 AM
So, guess what, moderating ain't an exact science. And Mayo, in regards to what I may or may not have been smoking... here's the deal...
I was asked by one of the Admins last fall if I would consider helping out by moderating the forum. TS has been evolving ever since I got here in 2002, and last year, the Admins were short-handed and needed some help. Up until last night, I had a pretty good track record. I love this place, I volunteer my time, as does everyone else who makes up the Administration side of things here. And two of the Admins are the hardest working women you've ever met online.
We have guidelines, a sort of "charter" which we try to interpret in regards to topics, posting, and general Forum behavior by our members.
I thought that the length of SB's post was excessive, especially in the light of Kim's request to just drop things where they were. And I also thought that it bordered close enough to one of our guidelines to temporarily lock it.
The interpretation of our guidelines is something that we discuss frequently amongst the Administrators and the Moderators. And SB, moderators in this forum do not have full Administration privileges. So, there wasn't anyone around last night when I read it, no other Mod or Admin was online, so I did what I thought was best at that moment in time.
Turns out I was wrong. So, Sandbox, I owe you an apology for taking your post the wrong way, and I would never have locked the thread had you just posted a link to all those incredible ways of saying "please" And apparently, that was your intent later on when you came back to edit the post. My bad.
And to both you and Mayo, you have both been incredible contributors to TS. Keep it up the good work! And try to play nice, boys!!!
And to you Mayo, in particular, if you have suggestions, we are all ears. My aim is to improve TS, not dumb it down. And the input of all our members can help us to make this a better place.
So, I made a judgment call, and it turns out I sucked all the fun out instead. Again, not my intent. I'm going to chalk it up as a learning experience and try to do better next time. And trust me, Kimmer doesn't need me to "protect" her!!!
Chris K
P.S. Thanks JackW for the PM!
Post by: krissel on August 29, 2008, 12:17:59 AM
Would that it could be so.
Sandbox more than anyone knows what happens 'behind the scenes" when there is a questionable post or thread. He speaks from many years of experience as to the difficulties of 'managing' TS and keeping that balance of free discussion void of the spam, disrespect and flaming you note is seen at other forums. It is an ongoing struggle. None of us is perfect in being able to discern without doubt what might offend or when that imperceptible line is crossed. We all have emotions and an individual history that leaves us with impressions that may tint our view of the words posted here.
Although TS may be celebrating the completion of 8 years next month that doesn't mean we are perfect. But we aren't a democracy either, rather a group of people helping each other. Some have to be trusted to run the software, manage data and pay the bills. And yes, we do have to have a few monitors to keep watch for those barbarians at the gate. I'm sorry if anyone may have felt that they had their toes stepped on along the way. We try very hard to keep TS as open and friendly as possible.
As ABD said, "GROUP HUG!"
EDIT: Chris was posting while I was composing this. Thanks, Chris!
Post by: Highmac on August 29, 2008, 04:55:16 AM
Chris has expressed what I would have said - it's not an exact science. Sometimes you look at a thread and you can see it heading towards a slippery slope and want to stop it before it becomes a car crash.
As far as I can recall I've only locked one thread, and in a similar situation as Chris - just wanted to put it on hold until a second opinion was available. I was on my own, nobody else on line to consult. I got only two PMs about it - one from a poster asking why, the other from someone thanking me for locking it so they couldn't join in and then regret it. Goes to show - you can please some of the people, etc...
Incidentally, shouldn't this be in Community?
Post by: Highmac on August 29, 2008, 06:43:16 AM
QUOTE(Mayo @ Aug 28 2008, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...as far as I know the members have never been polled regarding how TS should be run?
Although I'm not part of admin - just a moderator - I'd be interested to see the results of any poll you care to start and I'm sure admin would take into account any good suggestions for improving the forum.
I certainly have no complaints on the way it's run (or I wouldn't be here). I take a view that the people paying the bills have a right to decide what goes on. Bit like the way a restaurant is open to the public but the owners can still impose rules - wearing a tie for example.
Please note: Opinions expressed here are solely those of the poster and are not those of the management
Post by: dboh on August 29, 2008, 07:22:18 AM
QUOTE(Mayo @ Aug 28 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I find written text that lacks capitalization, punctuation, paragraph-breaks and the like difficult to read and it can often take significant effort just to comprehend it...
Off topic, but you'd best stay clear of James Frey's "Bright Shiny Morning" -- 500 pages without a single paragraph indent, semicolon or em dash, and maybe 1/50th of the needed commas. I'm determined to finish this beast, but it's also interesting to see what a difference punctuation can make to story-telling.
Post by: george on August 29, 2008, 08:24:50 AM
You are doing a grand job.
George.
Post by: sandbox on August 29, 2008, 09:31:11 AM
I understand your point Chris, and I did intend to return to it and nip it in the bud when I discovered the roadblock. I used to hate PM's when i was an admin. it could be just a reflection of living in the Sunshine. The Sunshine laws in Florida do not allow officials to say anything official behind closed doors, it all has to be out in the sunshine. well that;s the law but it just gives folks the oppertunity to do as they please without explanation, but the spirit of the law seems right.
Because I have a headset on, and could be called on the phone, yes at 3am, or my old dog could call me to the door .....again.....my attention to detail gets wonky, so when time allows I usually return and edit what I was into when I was so rudely interrupted.
When I get on the phone and if it seems like the exchange will be a while, I get up and walk outside and talk at moon. When I return I have data to register so by the time I get back to TS or any postage area, I've lost my Lionel Train. I can hear the whistle but sometimes I can't see the tracks.
Sometimes i post in haste and then discover that I erred and climb back into the post to edit myself. Multitasking isn't all it's cracked up to be, but it does kill time.As if we could kill time
without injuring eternity.
Henry D. Thoreau
Post by: chriskleeman on August 29, 2008, 09:43:03 AM
QUOTE(Highmac @ Aug 29 2008, 05:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Incidentally, shouldn't this be in Community?
The answer is probably yes. However, since I started all this ruckus, someone else can move it if they see fit! I'm going to go sit in the dog house for a little while longer!
Chris K
Who said "to err is human, to forgive is canine..."?
Post by: Highmac on August 29, 2008, 10:08:46 AM
I was just being mischievous....
Post by: kimmer on August 29, 2008, 12:17:13 PM
QUOTE(chriskleeman @ Aug 29 2008, 07:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Highmac @ Aug 29 2008, 05:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Incidentally, shouldn't this be in Community?
The answer is probably yes. However, since I started all this ruckus, someone else can move it if they see fit! I'm going to go sit in the dog house for a little while longer!
Chris K
Who said "to err is human, to forgive is canine..."?
Well, I've only had one cup of java, and I've had fun creating all kinds of riots this week, and it is my birthday week, and ... let's see ... well, those are good enough reasons for me ... so I'll whoosh this over to community.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on August 31, 2008, 04:38:58 PM
Post by: kimmer on August 31, 2008, 08:14:41 PM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Aug 31 2008, 02:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope this helps answer some of the 'operational' questions...