Post by: Gregg on October 31, 2008, 07:01:16 PM
Around here, all the TV reporters, anchors, weather, sports guys and ladies say
Hal-o-ween
But, is it really
Hol-o-ween?
I wonder if it's a regional thing....
How do you say "hall"??
(actually, I say ta-mate-o)
Post by: krissel on November 01, 2008, 04:20:07 AM
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 01, 2008, 11:11:25 AM
I can hardly do that when 'writing!' 
Pronunciations used to be highly influenced by our parents. Now, many children hear the teacher/TV/radio much more than any parent. Even the mobility of modern people has an influence on the way we talk.
There have always been variations in most larger countries/regions. The study of these dialects/variations can be very interesting. I suspect that such studies will become much more difficult with faster and wider means of verbal communications.
I say, "Y'all come back, now!" but I've heard others (less educated, of course) say, "You'ins come back, ya heer!"
As for tomatoes, I'd rather eat them than 'say' them. Especially with some crisp, warm bacon and cool, crisp lettuce!
Post by: kimmer on November 01, 2008, 12:10:54 PM
QUOTE
BOO!, how do you pronounce it?
To answer your original question: I pronounce BOO as BOO and IT as IT.
PS: We had 8 little trick-or-treaters last night. Next year, we'll only buy one bag of candy.
Post by: Gregg on November 01, 2008, 06:55:19 PM
QUOTE(kimmer @ Nov 1 2008, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We had 8 little trick-or-treaters last night. Next year, we'll only buy one bag of candy.
Round these parts, the kids just say "tricker treat"!
Post by: kimmer on November 01, 2008, 07:49:42 PM
They gave me this blank look and just stood there waiting for a treat. They had no clue. None.
Post by: tacit on November 03, 2008, 03:33:39 PM
The word "hallows" means "something sacred." In early Christianity, saints were "hallowed," or declared sacred, by the Church. All hallows' day was the day set aside for the reverence of the saints; today, it's called All Saints Day." "All hallows' even" originally meant "the evening before All Saints Day;" at the time, during the Middle Ages, All Saints Day, or All Hallows' Day, was November 1st, so October 31 was "All Hallows' Even."
The various traditions associated with Halloween, such as wearing costumes and masks, come from a much earlier Pagan tradition called Samhain.
Post by: Gregg on November 03, 2008, 04:01:25 PM
I spoke to my sister, who lives in southern Illinois, over the weekend, and she mentioned Halloween. I noticed that she used the "hal" version. So, if it's regional, maybe most of the Midwest has it "wrong".
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 03, 2008, 04:38:07 PM
Of course, spelin is allwayz thsaim!
"Y'all come back!"
Post by: Paddy on November 03, 2008, 05:54:55 PM
Hal·low·een [hal-uh-ween, -oh-een, hol-] (dictionary.com)
See also:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Hallow
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hallows
Can't see any reason why anyone would pronounce it as if it were "hollowe'en" quite frankly. (and no, it's not some proper British pronunciation either
)Post by: krissel on November 04, 2008, 01:43:07 AM
QUOTE
(hăl'ə-wēn', hŏl'-)
The more I think about it, the more I pronounce it... "sugar binge".
Post by: Gregg on November 04, 2008, 06:51:52 AM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Nov 3 2008, 04:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
here's a link to <how Answers.com hears and says> the word.
It goes by pretty quickly, but what I hear is something in between "hal" and "hol". It's that fancy pronunciation mark over the "a". Not sure if the characters will "translate" but here's what the OSX Dictionary gives you: Halloween |ˌhaləˈwēn; ˌhälə-; -ōˈēn| neither of which matches the above link.
QUOTE(Paddy @ Nov 3 2008, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Methinks perhaps maybe tacit meant "hal" as opposed to hall which is pronounced as "hawl" - since he correctly differentiates it from "hollow" which has the same sound as "hall"
Maybe you're right, but read his first comment again. One of your dictionary links to "hallow" would make Hal smile.
The other one presents a twist: 'ha-(")-lO even though the entry is written as hal-low, but the audio seems to be closer to Hal.
I'm glad it's so clear-cut.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 04, 2008, 08:06:41 AM
Post by: Highmac on November 04, 2008, 12:06:46 PM
We had trouble a while back working out whether Las Vegas was pronounced Loss Vegas, and decided that some Americans pronounced it with the longer 'a', as a southern Brit would say 'glass' which can sound a bit like an 'o'. It was settled a few weeks ago when one American on TV mentioned Las Vegas and Los Angeles in the same sentence and we recognised that long 'a' for Las while it was quite definitely an 'o' in Los.
Strange things married couples argue about....
Sorry - it's just been pointed out to me that we don't argue... .we discuss
Post by: Gregg on November 04, 2008, 12:23:33 PM
Los Angeles lôs ˈanjələs
Las Vegas läs ˈvāgəs
:snake eyes:
But I think Emmy Lou Harris gets it right in the song.
From Wikipedia:
Los Angeles was founded September 4, 1781, by Spanish governor Felipe de Neve as El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles de la Porciúncula (The Village of Our Lady, the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola). [They would've had trouble fitting all that on a baseball cap!]
Las Vegas (Spanish: "The Meadows") ...
[someone should open a hotel there with that name]
And I'm slowly coming around to the "Hal" version of Halloween. If I can remember that for a year, I might try to train myself to say it that way!
We all have words that we've mispronounced our whole lives. It seems that most people don't ever try to change that habit. First you have to notice that others say it differently. It is the inability to do so which is why we say a word incorrectly in the first place. I get the biggest kick out of hearing well educated people trying to say something will be a moot point, and they say mute instead. Can't they hear that??!!!!
Post by: kimmer on November 04, 2008, 01:20:52 PM
QUOTE(Highmac @ Nov 4 2008, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We had trouble a while back working out whether Las Vegas was pronounced Loss Vegas
We call it Lost Wages!
We also discuss.
Post by: krissel on November 04, 2008, 01:37:13 PM
QUOTE(Gregg @ Nov 4 2008, 01:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Neil, almost everyone in the States pronounces Las Vegas (the first part of it anyway) like Los Angeles. That's clearly wrong.
Um, I've never pronounced Las like Los. Maybe because I have taken Spanish but it's always been an "ah" sound for me.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 04, 2008, 04:20:02 PM
Hope that didn't scare anyone...
This could well turn into the longest thread ever seen at TS...
BTW, is it "sir-via-vir-z" or "su-viav-or-z?" :troll:
Post by: Gregg on November 04, 2008, 06:29:07 PM
QUOTE(krissel @ Nov 4 2008, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Um, I've never pronounced Las like Los. Maybe because I have taken Spanish but it's always been an "ah" sound for me.
Good for you. The minority is usually right! My "poll" is once again comprised of mostly TV and Radio people in Milwaukee. I don't think I've ever heard it pronounced correctly on air, assuming we agree that the "ah" sound is correct. .... Lahs VegahsQUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Nov 4 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
BTW, is it "sir-via-vir-z" or "su-viav-or-z?" :troll:
You mean is it "su-viav-or-z" er "sir-via-vir-z"? It's probably a mute point.
Longest thread! Yer fergettin the "We need some humor" thread. .... or is it humour??
QUOTE(kimmer @ Nov 4 2008, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We call it Lost Wages! We also discuss.
We also discuss. the House always wins! Careful with that discuss, if you throw it around indoors, you could break stuff.
Post by: kimmer on November 04, 2008, 07:02:36 PM
QUOTE(Gregg @ Nov 4 2008, 05:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Careful with that discuss, if you throw it around indoors, you could break stuff.
Would that be disc or disk?
And who will clean up the mess?
Or is that whom?
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 05, 2008, 05:13:57 PM
edited to change "can" to "can't" in the fifth sentence. Xabd
Post by: Gregg on November 05, 2008, 07:42:28 PM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Nov 5 2008, 05:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Unfortunately, 'names' are off-limits for 'correctness' battles. They are pronounced any way their 'owners want. No rules apply. Period. If it ain't your name or you don't live there, you can tell anyone else how to
Names of people, yes. Names of places, absolutely not.
Some places are named after people, and the population pronounces the name differently than the person the place is named after. They may know where they are, but they simply don't know how to say it correctly.
Post by: kimmer on November 05, 2008, 08:00:53 PM
Oh, and don't be pronouncing that "S" on the end of Illinois.
Post by: Paddy on November 05, 2008, 09:35:29 PM
http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Oregon
Post by: Highmac on November 06, 2008, 02:43:21 AM
. Once I spelled it out he corrected me... We have fun over here with visitors trying to deal with names like Leicester (Lester), Bicester (Bister) and Cirencester (Siren-sesster). Heaven preserve us from consistency
Post by: Gregg on November 06, 2008, 06:41:08 AM
QUOTE(kimmer @ Nov 5 2008, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the name of the state ...
Then there's Miz-er-y or Miz-er-uh, both of which are probably the wrong way to say Missouri. How about Miss-oor-eye?
And I was gonna mention the "s" in Illinois, but you beat me to it!
There's also Cal-a-rod-o believe it or not. I'll give people a little slack on that one. An "a" can look like an "o" when written by hand.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 06, 2008, 09:52:06 AM
QUOTE(Hignmac)
Heaven preserve us from consistency
I rest my case, Gregg. 
"Locals" will always trump the 'educated!' Still "language" has always been an interesting subject. One of the courses I had to take twice, in my senior year of
Post by: Gregg on November 06, 2008, 12:32:57 PM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Nov 6 2008, 09:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Hignmac)
Heaven preserve us from consistency
I rest my case, Gregg. "Locals" will always trump the 'educated!' Not very convincing, to me anyway. I couldn't disagree more.
I'm reminded of several stories...
At Illinois State University, my wife's alma mater, there is a classroom building called Schroeder Hall. (I think I have that spelled correctly!) It was a running joke that you could tell who the freshmen were by how they pronounced that name. Of course, the "oe" is supposed to be pronounced as an "a" sound, as those who were well educated loved to point out to the freshmen.
I grew up in DeKalb, Illinois. It's named after some guy from Germany, Baron von DeKalb. We say it "D-cal_b" (two syllables). But, down in Georgia, it's "D-cab". That's with the southern accent, and it's wrong. When the media heads mention it during an NIU football game, they give it the Northern accent-free rendering, yet when there's a story from DeKalb County, Georgia, they become Romans.
Here in Milwaukee, there is a street named after a place in Europe (Germany?) called Teutonia. For years, I was pronouncing it as Too-tone-ya, like almost everyone else I encountered said it. One day, when for the second time I heard someone pronounce it as Ty-tone-ya, I looked it up online. I've been trying to pronounce it correctly ever since. I've asked a few long time residents how to say it. So far, none have been correct.
When the Green Bay Packers got a new quarterback about 17 years ago, the TV and radio reporters wanted to know how they should pronounce his name. He said, "It's Farv, even though it's spelled F-A-V-R-E. We know we pronounce it wrong."
Two businessmen were traveling together in Texas. They came upon a road sign giving the distance to Mexia. One said, "Mex-ee-uh, what a strange name!" The other said, "I believe it's Ma-hey-ya." They couldn't agree, so when they got there, they stopped for lunch and asked the young man behind the counter, "Please tell us, very slowly and distinctly, where we are." He paused and said, "Dare-e Kween."
Ever been to the capitol of South Dakota?
I'll humo(u)r the locals, but when not in their company, I'll revert to the correct way.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 06, 2008, 03:44:43 PM
Likewise with location names, most places may have no idea why the name originally chosen. And the old-timers certainly knew how they wanted pronounced and spelt! If you don't agree with them, that's your prerogative. But absolutely no one has the right to tell either the family or the town/village/city that they are "wrong." Just because a word/name is spelled the same as another, even a location or a famous (notorious!) person, doesn't mean that it was named after that location or person. And, even if you can prove that it was, it is 'owned' by that person/family or location inhabitants, not you or me.My wife, when asked where she is from, usually mentions the nearest town, Trumann, AR. Notice that there are two "n's" at the end. Although where the name originally came from, very few seem to know, most claim it had the last "n" added when Mr. Truman, the President, took office. He was not one of the town's favorite politicians!
You are also, probably aware of the many immigrants coming through Ellis Island that had their names misspelled/bungled/changed because of difficulty with the language or inability to read English. But that's the name the family took from then on. It may not sound the way the pronounce it, it's their name and the majority are probably proud of it.
Most people pronounce my last name with a long "a" as it "ate." But our family has always used a short "a" as in "chaff" (the rubble/waste from many grains). I was over a year old before I could say the name, and I still couldn't read, so I just used the name I'd heard.
I usually corrected people for about 30 years. Then I realized it wasn't that important to strangers who I'd never see again. Why waste the time? Now, if there is a probability of a long term friendship/membership/work group/etc., that's a different story. If they get it 'wrong' I make them stand in a corner, on their head, and repeat it correctly 105 times. I tried only 100 times but it didn't work as well as 105... And now, back to our regularly scheduled topic...
Post by: kbeartx on November 06, 2008, 04:19:21 PM
QUOTE(Gregg @ Nov 6 2008, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ever been to the capitol of South Dakota?
Did you mean the building, or the city?
" The word capitol is used to refer to the building where a legislature (such as the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives) meets while the word capital refers to the city which serves as the seat of government. You can remember the difference by thinking of the "o" in the word capitol as a dome, like the dome of the U.S. Capitol in the capital Washington D.C."
KB
Post by: Xairbusdriver on November 06, 2008, 08:40:37 PM
Post by: krissel on November 07, 2008, 04:05:33 AM
Post by: Gregg on November 07, 2008, 06:51:48 AM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Nov 6 2008, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
... if you say your name is pronounced "smith" but spelled "jones," that's the way I'll pronounce it. Likewise with location names, most places may have no idea why the name originally chosen. And the old-timers certainly knew how they wanted pronounced and spelt! If you don't agree with them, that's your prerogative. But absolutely no one has the right to tell either the family or the town/village/city that they are "wrong." Just because a word/name is spelled the same as another, even a location or a famous (notorious!) person, doesn't mean that it was named after that location or person. And, even if you can prove that it was, it is 'owned' by that person/family or location inhabitants, not you or me.
Likewise with location names, most places may have no idea why the name originally chosen. And the old-timers certainly knew how they wanted pronounced and spelt! If you don't agree with them, that's your prerogative. But absolutely no one has the right to tell either the family or the town/village/city that they are "wrong." Just because a word/name is spelled the same as another, even a location or a famous (notorious!) person, doesn't mean that it was named after that location or person. And, even if you can prove that it was, it is 'owned' by that person/family or location inhabitants, not you or me.I agree with all of the above. My issue is not whether or not to be polite, (where do you stand on that one?) but whether or not it is correct. The mere repetition of an error does not make it a hit.
As I said:
QUOTE(Gregg @ Nov 6 2008, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'll humo(u)r the locals, but when not in their company, I'll revert to the correct way.
QUOTE(kbeartx @ Nov 6 2008, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did you mean the building, or the city?
Well, when I go to the capital city of another state, it is usually to visit the capitol building. I thought about checking which was correct to refer to the city, but I was lazy. I meant the city, Pierre. I'll have to try to remember the memory tricks. Thanks!
But, Abe Lincoln was also a member of the Illinois state legislature.
Post by: Gregg on November 07, 2008, 06:56:57 AM