Print Page - Search engine repellants

Archives => 2009 => Topic started by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 09:37:13 AM

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 09:37:13 AM

Im interested in keeping the search engines away from my family sites,
I use these 3 meta things at the moment,

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
<html>
<head>
<title>Whatever</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1">
<meta name="robots" content="noindex,nofollow,noarchive">
<meta http-equiv="Pragma" content="no-cache">
<meta http-equiv="Cache-Control" content="no-cache, must-revalidate">
<style type="text/css">

Seems to work fairly well, but people here suggest to use the robots.txt to keep them away from the entire sites.

So if I wanted to keep them away from jcarter.net and jcdouglass.net, which are both mine,
Where in the code would I put this,

User-agent: *
Disallow: /

Thanks in advance,
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Mrious_be on February 06, 2009, 03:45:20 PM

Jane,

Why would you want to keep search engines away?
They are the ones that will list you when people are searching for stuff.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 04:24:28 PM

I dont want my grandkids(and pets) coming up on a Google search. If there was a need of it, then OK, but I just don't think its a good idea for personal, well not really personal, but family stuff to be easily searched on the web. And most of my classmates really dont want our lessons to be up there too. Though I think our classwork is password protected, but once we stick it on our sites, its there. I dont really have any reason to not have my stuff Googled, but I would rather not have my family pictures easily found on the search engines.
I do want all our relatives and family and classmates to find our stuff, but the rest of the world, nahhhh. Anybody who needs it, I have sent links to.

And if that is easily done with what Ive put on there so far, like the noindex, nofollow stuff, then that would have to be added to all the pages. But the robots.txt one looks like if we put that into our main index page, it should take care of the whole site?
Anybody have info on that and where to place it in the code?
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 06, 2009, 04:35:35 PM

QUOTE

I do want all our relatives and family and classmates to find our stuff, but the rest of the world

I'm not sure we can have it both ways, Jane. If your friends can already find your stuff then it's already indexed.

I would think a simple password system would suffice to keep folks away from your entire domain, including all the sites there.

I think that is can be done with info in a ".htaccess" file. Can't remember how I did that once...but that ".htaccess" file is a great place for telling the browser where to go for different errors encountered, like 404 Page not found.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 05:14:05 PM

I think this .htaccess is coming up in a future lesson, I will have to see.
I am learning about all this stuff so fast that its all got my head spinning.
There is so much to learn!
I am not really concerned about search engines, but dont want to be on the top few pages. But with all the stuff out there,
my stuff probably wont be way up there anyway. So I am most likely not having to worry.
It would be interesting to find out about this stuff and how it works, where to place the code, and more.
Its fun.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 06, 2009, 05:33:00 PM

It is very hard to get onto the first page. It relies more on 'hits' your pages get than what your site might be about. Using general terms will probably not show any of your sites until several pages back. Specific terms (exact first, last names and other info on your pages would be more likely to be nearer the first page. And if the search terms are specific enough and Google has indexed your page with those terms, you could actually end up as the only link on that first page.

In fact, instead of using <meta> space for 'keywords,' you might make it more readily found by your family by using a large number of terms on your Home page that only your family would think of. Of course, it would probably be a lot easier to just send them the link, as you've done!

But it might be an interesting way to see how fast Google's bots/spiders work.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: tacit on February 06, 2009, 06:08:50 PM

QUOTE(jcarter @ Feb 6 2009, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You do not put those lines in your meta tags or anywhere else in your HTML. You put those lines in a robots.txt file.

A robots.txt file is just a text file. You make it with any text editor, like TextEdit,

Create a brand-new text file. In the text file, put the lines

User-agent: *
Disallow: /

Save the file as "robots.txt". Its name must be exactly that; all lower case. It is very important that the file be saved as plain text not rich text. A rich text file WILL NOT work. (In TextEdit, you use the "Make PLain Text" command from the Format menu to make a file be a plain text file.)

Upload it to the top level of your Web site and you're done. There is nothing else you need to do. No changes to any other files and no modification to any of your HTML.

Using keywords in your meta tags won't make any difference one way or the other; search engines no longer look at keywords in meta tags.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 07:42:44 PM

I wonder if my pages have ever been hit? I doubt it. And our names are all pretty ordinary so might have thousands of hits to other things and names.
Though I have found some of my stuff on Pbase.com, with ordinary dog names.
I put in 'no index' so hopefully they didnt index anything of mine.
I should test it.
Jane Carter comes up as a hair cosmetic.

Someone here might come up with how to use this
User-agent: *
Disallow: /
Though I probably dont need it at all.
I sure learn a lot here!
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 08:05:23 PM

Hi Tacit,
I posted that former one just seconds before I got yours,,,,,,,,
So the meta tags are useless now, interesting.

I always have TextEdit on plain text, so I just make a new one with only
User-agent: *
Disallow: /
in it.
Nothing else.
Named it

robots.txt

And it goes right in with my index page at the top level.
I'm not good at this, but your instructions are wonderful, here goes.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 08:38:42 PM

Here it is,
http://www.jcarter.net/robots.txt
DDT, flit, or bug bombs, whatever
Thanks,
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 06, 2009, 10:39:58 PM

QUOTE

I wonder if my pages have ever been hit? I doubt it.

Doesn't your host give you some kind of tracking report each month? Even a very basic stats report should show you that kind of information, usually by each calendar month for a year...

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: sandbox on February 07, 2009, 04:38:58 AM

Yes jane, use a plain text file for robot.txt
When you observe your server logs you will see SOME bots hitting the txt file and going no further. Not all pay attention.
read= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot.txt

.hdaccess files are explained here. Keep in mind once you put a dot (period) in front of the file it will become invisible.
info= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.htaccess
practice= http://www.besthostratings.com/articles/ht...-redirects.html
You can write them without the dot, upload it and then add the dot. Some server provide txt files, in cPanel for example.

If you loose an invisible file search for it using the visible- invisible option. It could be on your desktop and you wouldn't know it.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 07, 2009, 06:53:45 AM

A tracking report, I was unaware that this is possible. Wonder how to find it, perhaps on my account page?
I will take a look there anyway.

.htaccess is beyond me, tho I did see it mentioned in a future lesson.

I really dont need to keep the search engines away, as there is no harm, but it just seemed that it would be better not to have all my pictures of family accessable. I tried to Google some of my stuff, and it must be way way down the list, as I didnt see anything.

I love to learn about this web stuff, seems there is always another question Ive got when I learn something new, one thing leads to another.
And while taking all these classes, more and more makes sense to me as I learn.
Thanks to you all here, Ive learned more than I could ever imagine about computers and the web(and more, like airplanes and such.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 07, 2009, 10:01:53 AM

Your accounts page should tell you what 'benefits' you should be getting. Of course, checking the hosts various offerings should also mention that info. And it may not even be included in a minimum service plan.

Passwords on a single page or an entire site are not difficult, even I could do it.

But they may not be as secure as you want. OTOH, it doesn't sound like you are really terribly worried about security, at least when it comes to people finding your sites.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Paddy on February 07, 2009, 11:09:12 AM

Jane, htaccess is just another text file you place at the root level of your site. If you follow the directions - or just use someone else's text on any of the various pages that describe how to do it, you should be fine.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 07, 2009, 11:45:42 AM

Not really, this whole thing was actually more of curiosity.

Now Im really curious to see the .htaccess lesson, we arent supposed to read ahead till we have the present lessons done, but
I think we all do.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: sandbox on February 07, 2009, 04:04:45 PM

Jane, the same place you get your web mail is where the control panels are. It's the main access page.

This is a partial page cPanel on one off my servers.

Who do you use for your site?

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Paddy on February 07, 2009, 04:47:42 PM

Jane uses MacHighway.com and they have CPanel.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 07, 2009, 04:51:54 PM

Ive been using these people for years, they are wonderful, cater to Macs, and have phone support which meant the most to me from the start.
(still does)
http://www.machighway.com/
WebMail, Ive never used it except for my G-mail account.
Thats another thing to explore.

I will go to my account and look at all of this after dinner,
Thank you! I really didnt pay attention to whats available to us.
Though I did learn today how to embed a movie on one of my pages from their support page.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 07, 2009, 07:35:30 PM

Ive tried to log in, and theyve totally changed their site.
The people who are long customers, are called 'Legacy' and we have to go to a different page to log in.
And it does not work, egads, these people were the most user friendly Mac web host in the world, and now, I cannot even log in.
Do you think its that darn robots.txt thing I put in?
I just cant understand why their site wont accept my email nor my password?
I will call them on Monday, thank god they have phone support, otherwise I would be stuck.
But my site works, so maybe I just better leave everything alone, and not do anything, as I seem to have messed something up big time.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: tacit on February 08, 2009, 10:37:52 PM

QUOTE(jcarter @ Feb 8 2009, 01:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. There is nothing in your Web hosting space that has anything to do with logging in to your control panel software. Sounds like they've moved to a different server platform and the older servers, like the one you're on, are having login issues.

You haven't messed anything up; there's no direct relationship at all between things living on the Web server and the control panel itself.

Incidentally, Google has already indexed your site. If oyu want to see everything Google knows about your site, go to Google and type

site:jcarter.net

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Highmac on February 09, 2009, 01:15:25 AM

QUOTE(tacit @ Feb 9 2009, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Incidentally, Google has already indexed your site. If oyu want to see everything Google knows about your site, go to Google and type
site:jcarter.net

Thanks Tacit. I never knew that - always learning something new on here

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: sandbox on February 09, 2009, 04:33:12 AM

Jane, if you had cpanel you would go here: http://www.jcarter.net/cpanel and to access the account, use your primary name for the account.
(that would be the main email address like jane@jcarter.net) You would type in jane and then your password.
If you can't get access contact your server space provider and they should send you an email with the info.

You could have a site email address, (up to 10 addresses) this would define the emails that you would receive from your site. It can be forwarded to your gmail account if you choose or any email account. You could setup an additional account on your Mac Mail client and it could send and receive separately from other accounts. I do use separate accounts and color code them so I know where the email came from. It goes into a color coded inbox project folder for each account.

edit: Paddy apparently she doesn't have cpanel??

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Paddy on February 09, 2009, 07:03:36 AM

Well, if you go to http://www.machighway.com and mouse over the "Control Panel" in the comparison chart, you'll see that ALL of Machighway's accounts have cPanel.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 09, 2009, 07:17:58 AM

Hi Tacit,
Good heavens, Google has a lot of my stuff.
Interesting that they dont have any of my new stuff, so perhaps that robots.txt or the meta tags for nofollow, noindex things actually did work.

I dont really care, but anyone can see the pathetic job of html that I did when I was learning, nothing validated, nor did I even know what validating your code was anyway. But they all seemed to work and it sure is fun.
I had forgotten some of the pages which showed up, and this photo which is so cute,
http://www.jcarter.net/puppies/8weeks/fun-place.jpg

I guess there isnt a cpanel there, so I will just have to wait to see what gives.
Though everything works just fine, so from what Tacit said, I didnt mess anything up.
My email does come in thru them, which works great.
I will just leave that stuff alone until I hear back from them at some point, wont bother to call them either.
Thanks for the great explanations! Yes, Im learning all the time here.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 09, 2009, 07:26:37 AM

Looks like I am on the Legacy part, one of the older customers. Though they say not to worry about changing over, the instructions are quite complex, so I hope I can stay with the old way.
I dont need anything complex either.
Seems like the cpanel is on the new system, I never got to it with the old.
And my password and log in name still dont work.
Like Tacit said, the problem might lie with their transition to new servers?
Whew, my stuff is OK.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 09, 2009, 09:16:40 AM

The speed at which Google indexes any site depends on the number of 'bots/spiders' used, the traffic on the various Internet routes, server traffic, site restrictions and moon phases. As fast as the speed of light is, it is still 'speed': distance and time.

From the MacHighway site:

[attachment=1208:cPanel.jpg][attachment=1209:Services.jpg]

The only account that does not include 'stats' is a simple e-mail only type:

[attachment=1210:Stats.jpg]

However, the Support log in page is somewhat confusing to me. There is an alert for those who signed up prior to 8/20/08 and want to use "knowledgebase and client area login." But the only "client area" login in is above the area you are told to go to.

Perhaps the "knowledgebase" (usually an area containing articles about the site that would/should answer most questions a user might have) has further info you can use. Frankly, I'd just email or call their "Friendly, 24/7 phone and email support" function!

OTOH, all the things you were looking for seem to be available on any of their web site hosting accounts.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 09, 2009, 09:58:03 AM

They have entirely changed their website.
I agree, I think I will call at some time today, though I did email them Saturday.
Ive got the 'small' account, actually 2 different domain names on it.
And I remember back that I used to be able to look at things once I had logged in.
But not being able to log in now, is odd.
Its also interesting that Google didnt pick up any of my new stuff.
I will keep checking to see if I hear from them, but will call anyway before the day is over. They are in Denver.
Thanks,
Jane

Ive got something else interesting that I will start a new thread for, coloring syntax in Safari.
but the plug ins wont go in.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 09, 2009, 02:52:19 PM

They certainly have changed everything, so you have to move your stuff to a different system within theirs.
We dont have to, but if we want a control panel and other stuff, we should.
And it looks pretty daunting,
Here are the instructions,
http://customers.machighway.com/knowledgeb...tid=15&id=9
I think I will just forget it.
What do you think? Just leave it alone since everything is working fine now?
Thanks,
jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: tacit on February 09, 2009, 03:47:13 PM

QUOTE(jcarter @ Feb 9 2009, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here are the instructions,
http://customers.machighway.com/knowledgeb...tid=15&id=9
I think I will just forget it.
What do you think? Just leave it alone since everything is working fine now?
Thanks,
jane

Good Lord. They haven't made any attempt at all to make things easy, have they?

With GoDaddy, I was notified about a year ago that one of my oldest sites was being migrated to a new server; they did everything on their end, and just told me to make sure I didn't try to make any changes to the site for 24 hours while the name servers were updating.

If you don't migrate, that means:

- You can't take advantage of any new features that they add to your hosting account. For example, if they were to say something like "All our hosting accounts now allow anonymous FTP!" or whatever, that wouldn't apply to legacy hosting accounts.

- You don't get to use the cPanel control panel software.

- If they start adding free pre-loaded goodies to their regular hosting accounts, like giving you the option to put a free image gallery on your site or whatever, you won't be able to with a legacy hosting account.

- They probably won't continue to make security updates to the legacy platform.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 09, 2009, 06:12:05 PM

"If you don't migrate, that means:"

You may not be getting everything you are already paying for! What a deal! NOT!

From the 'moving' instructions, I suspect this site is actually just part of a 'regular' hosting company but is advertising this company name as "Mac Friendly." This is not unusual nor even illegal, MacMall is just another part of the same company that runs "PCMall." OWC probably also sells stuff for any PC (PC Sales?). Any company that has some expertise (hopefully, anyway) with Macs will usually make an effort to get that info out. After all, the Mac market is not the biggest around, anything you can do to increase your share of that market is important.

I can only assume that you are paying much less than their current Basic plan. Otherwise, they would/should offer to move your site/files at no or certainly a nominal charge.

OTOH, since they claim to be super friendly and 'supportive,' you might just start asking a few 'kind' questions about why you don't have any new services since you've "been a loyal customer" for so long...

Good luck, either way!

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 09, 2009, 07:06:16 PM

I'm paying $100/year for one and $25 for the other, I really dont mind the cost, its just this odd changing of stuff that is not really what I would call user friendly.
Dont think they have anything to do with MacMall, as they are a small company in Denver.
Here is one of their resposes,

"Jane,

Yes, it is a complicated move which we make no bones about. If it were as easy as us making this move for you, we'd do it in a heartbeat - the old technology makes that impossible unfortunately.

You have to decide if this is a move you want to make. We can't make that decision for you. This is the future and you'll eventually need to make this move, but for the time being, the legacy servers are still supported.

I would advise you to use us for support on our system and no one else. That's only going to create more bad information and frustration.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

"

So I am not really impressed with them any more.
Its sad, as Ive been recommending them big time in my classes.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: krissel on February 15, 2009, 02:14:59 AM

Jane, I took a look at that page of instructions on moving and nearly choked.

Just for yucks, I ticked the vote at the bottom of the page as to whether it was useful or not. I chose NOT.
The resulting page revealed this:

QUOTE

Rating: 11 Users Found This Useful (1014 Votes)

So it looks like you aren't alone.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: sandbox on February 15, 2009, 04:46:56 AM

hum, I see that but.....her address plus cpanel comes up empty.

QUOTE(Paddy @ Feb 9 2009, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if you go to http://www.machighway.com and mouse over the "Control Panel" in the comparison chart, you'll see that ALL of Machighway's accounts have cPanel.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 15, 2009, 06:58:35 AM

Thanks for mentioning the vote at the bottom, I hit no and got 11 found it useful and 1015 not.
Whew, thats pretty darn awful, I wonder if anyone there reads that number.

I also read the email part and that is even more daunting, as I use an older version of Macmail. And moving my other account is another thing not looking forward to trying. "slightly more difficult" to quote them.
I really am upset with this company, as the main reason I went with them was the ease of use and the live phone support.

I just am going to leave it alone, as long as I can upload my picture albums with Transmit, and see my pages, then I will be sort of happy.
Would I really use all those cpanel things anyway? Perhaps so, but at this point, not going to worry about it.
Maybe when I get a new Mac, I will give it a try.

What would you all do? Try to follow those instructions, or just leave things as they are?
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Paddy on February 15, 2009, 10:09:27 AM

Reading through those instructions I came to the conclusion that it's like moving to an entirely different ISP - those are the steps you'd need to take if you moved.

So, basically, you've got two options - stay with MacHighway, and move to the new system. (I'd bite the bullet and do it; as Tacit points out, there will probably be no further security updates on the old system, and you're paying the same for a lot less features) or move to a new ISP entirely.

BTW - what are you paying $100 for? That's the equivalent of their "Medium" account and probably way more than you need. I use GoDaddy, LunarPages and ASmallOrange for the sites I do for various clients. I've had no issues with any of them. ASO is good if you have a relatively small site; if you need a lot of storage, try LunarPages. I have several sites on GoDaddy, but I don't like their control panel (it's not Cpanel) as much and if they weren't simple sites, I'd probably move them to LunarPages.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 15, 2009, 10:27:27 AM

Ive got the 'Medium' one, thats the jcarter.net, then Ive another jcdouglass.net
I forgot how much I pay, I think its $125 a year, because I have two.

http://www.machighway.com/hostingplans.php

Thanks for the info, I might look into a new host, one that is really really easy and has phone support.
I dont know how much stuff I have on these now, is there a way to tell if I'm close to being 'full'?
Almost of my pages are picture albums, though Ive got some like this one I put up for my class this morning.
http://www.jcdouglass.net/slideshow-lilly/...lide-show1.html
Jane

I am wondering if all the negative votes that MacHighway got on their help page, that they might consider this and make it a bit easier for people to switch.
It seems like a pretty odd way to do business, they know they have some people like me who are not experts, I actually got some of my classmates to sign up, and we are Photoshop type people, not great with the technical stuff.
Could they make it an easier process?

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Paddy on February 15, 2009, 11:10:56 AM

Well, it appears that Jim's speculation is correct; they're actually using servers owned by someone else. Having just looked them up on http://cqcounter.com/whois/, it would appear that they're using Inflow, who are a colocation provider.

http://www.isp-planet.com/research/colo_pr...ica/inflow.html

I would suspect that this is the model many smaller ISPs use - they don't maintain their own data centers. GoDaddy and LunarPages appear to have their own data centers - ASO uses Global Net Access. Given that scenario, I doubt that MacHighway can make things any easier, short of doing all the work for their customers and it would require that they go through all the steps for each one.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on February 15, 2009, 11:41:53 AM

Wow,
Thank you for looking all this up.
So Im stuck with what Ive got and will have eventually have to plow thru all this stuff.
Maybe somebody like Google will get into the business and make things slick and easy, as all their stuff is.
So I will just wait, and deal with what Ive got.
Seems to do everything I want so far anyway, and its pretty cheap.
Learning about this is fun.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on May 06, 2009, 07:49:22 AM

Some of my classmates are looking for a good webhost, should I continue to recommend MacHighway?
Even tho they tossed me into the "Legacy" dustbin, I still have faith in them, though I sure am not going to run thru their daunting process, especially with my older version of MacMail.

I would assume that a new customer signing up, would be placed into their new system?

Looks like theyve changed their instructions a bit, but sure doesnt look any easier.

http://customers.machighway.com/knowledgeb...tid=15&id=9

Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Xairbusdriver on May 06, 2009, 09:20:45 AM

First, have them determine what their criteria are: Price, support, bandwidth, space, number of email aliases, access to FTP, PHP, Perl, SQL, backup methods/times, up-times, etc. And then check as many user references as possible and find out who owns them and how long they've been in business.

Or, just go for the cheapest and hope for the best.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on May 06, 2009, 09:33:00 AM

I gave them the site, so they can look at the packages and the prices.
How would you get user references that would not be put on their own site, unbiased references? Ive talked with the owner, Chris Graves and Tyler is the tech support guy. I think theyve been in business for about 15 years. They are in Denver. They were just perfect for me until the "Legacy" problem.
Jane

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: Paddy on May 06, 2009, 09:36:45 PM

I've been happy with A Small Orange - our host for TS and as of today, for three of my clients. No, they don't provide a HUGE amount of storage or bandwidth for the "small" ($5/mo) plan, but unless you plan on storing a lot of stuff online or have a very busy commercial site, they're very good. There is no limit on the number of email addresses or MySQL databases and they support a lot of things that you only get for more money elsewhere (Ruby on Rails etc.) And the tech support is superb.

Title: Search engine repellants
Post by: jcarter on May 07, 2009, 06:06:25 AM

I will keep them in mind, if the Legacy thing comes to an end.
Thanks,
Jane

Edit/add, Wow, A Small Orange sounds like a great one. Ive got them bookmarked and will go over to them if and when the "Legacy" people get ousted.
I would assume that at some point we all will be required to switch to a new system anyway, so looks like A Small Orange will be the one for me.
Thanks

Techsurvivors

Archives => 2009 => Topic started by: jcarter on February 06, 2009, 09:37:13 AM