Techsurvivors
Archives => 2003 => Topic started by: george on February 01, 2003, 10:40:00 AM
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I have just heard the sad news and am a loss as to what to say. my heart goes ot to the crew's families.
George.
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It’s a sad day......
Hopefully the toxicity of what has fallen is not the on going story.
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Sad but inevitable. It was one too many trips for Columbia.
I hope the toxic stuff falling down doesn't cause an onging problem also.
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Yes. Very sad.
This was the first notice I had about it Had the TV on the sports channel.
One of those, remember where you were, events.
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Just a terrible tragedy. There aren't any other words I can think of to express it . As Kelly said, one of those moments where you remember where you were when you heard. (I was in my car and had just put on the "all news station" and knew immediately that there was something horrible that had happened.)
[ 02-01-2003, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: RobW ]
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In 1986 I was the Director, Performance Assurance for the payload (the TDRSS satellite) when the Challenger tragedy occurred. Over the years I have worked with several astronauts and met some of their loved ones.
The sadness lingers.
Harv
[ 02-01-2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: pendragon ]
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Harv,
You must feel the sorrow even more deeply,
George
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Such a tragic day. My prayers go out to the families of these brave men and women.
Roy
[ 02-01-2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: dolphin ]
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A tragedy for sure.
I just hope they didn't suffer much before they died, that's what is the most scary part to me, what horror it might have been. So close to home and yet so far away.
My thoughts goes to their family and friends.
/Petra
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I was only up for about 5 minutes this morning, 8:05 when I turned on the radio, and was immediately hit with the news. Posted a quick note to a friend who worked for NASA for years, retired and is now a consultant to (for?) them. . .I can hardly imagine, Harv, how you guys must feel. You're in my thoughts an prayers, are all concerned. . .
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My sympathy goes to the families and to the workers at the space centre.
As sad as this is - we should remember that throughout history "explorers" have faced danger and paid the ultimate price. To those who dare goes the glory, but also sometimes the sacrifice and sadness.
In the past expeditions disappeared and it could be months or years before their fate was known (if ever.) Now it's "immediate, in-your-face."
Thank God there are people who have the courage to do these things. Not one of the astronauts would have traded places with any one of us.
WDL
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Most regretable.
Most regretable.
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How much have we learned?
As I recollect, and my recollection is likely imperfect, the investigation of the earlier Challenger tragedy revealed calculations of catastrophic mission loss as low as 1/100,000 as calculated prior to the Challenger accident.
My recollection is that these estimates were recalculated to something closer to 1 in 25 following the Challenger accident.
The high risk of catastrophic failure in regards to shuttle missions was emphasized, and civilian use (i.e. schoolteachers) was to be discouraged in regard to future flights.
Yet, I believe I recently saw some newspaper report where they are once again looking for schoolteacher volunteers.
I shook my head at the thought.
They obviously weren't looking for teachers of history.
I believe that there have been a total of around 112 shuttle missions. If that is true, it looks like the odds of a lost mission are proving to be closer to one in 56 than one in 25. A 2% chance of catastrophe with each flight. Not so bad, maybe.
Think how that would play in the airline industry.
If one has a 2% chance of dying every time one goes up in a shuttle - well - I can see trying it once. Maybe. Maybe not. That odds aren't too bad - and that is one heck of a ride.
But making a career out of it, well . . .
There's only so long you can beat the house.
Those with a strong sense of self-preservation will opt out, thank you.
Those who do not have a strong sense of self-preservation will self select for such a career. And will glorify in their particular world view. And will be called heroes.
All on the taxpayers tab.
Me?
I just don't know.
I do know that it's a sad day all around.
Epaminondas
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I wonder sometimes if things would be different if the chief NASA administrator went up with every flight that he signs off on?
There are seven seats on the shuttle - how about five astronauts, the chief NASA administator, and the chief project engineer going up on each flight? I bet the missions that fly would be a whole lot safer all around.
If any missions ever flew at all.
Richard P. Feynman
Michael J. Smith's famous "Uhoh"
TRANSCRIPT OF THE CHALLENGER CREW COMMENTS FROM THE OPERATIONAL RECORDER
[ 02-02-2003, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]
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it looks like the odds of a lost mission are proving to be closer to one in 56 than one in 25. A 2% chance of catastrophe with each flight. Not so bad, maybe.
Or suppose you use a fequently applied method of creating a statistic for travel, namely, the number of fatalities per miles traveled.
Considering the number or miles traveled while orbiting, I would suspect that this approach would suugest that Shuttle travel is safer than driving to your corner store.
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Calculated against the benefits of travel through the years, would anyone say nay?
Would we tell Hannibal the wows about the road less traveled, or suggest that Columbus play in his bathtub, for the risks are great and the world is flat?
We will delve into the bowels of the earth and sea, and yes, reach for the stars. Life is risk, there is always the chance that the next breath will never come, but breath we do.
Understanding this, we honor those who take extraordinary risk.
My hat is off.
Just breath........ .......
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Sent by a friend
http://www.dobhran.com/greetings/GRcolumbia.htm
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<< Calculated against the benefits of travel through the years, would anyone say nay? >
Time Magazine
I am actually suprised at Time's courage.
The space shuttle program is not about science.
It is about money and politics.
And politics.
And money.
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There were originally four space shuttles. A fifth was cobbled together out spare parts and such following the Challenger disaster.
Two down.
Three to go.
The program has now run around 20 years. The current planned lifetime of the program is another twenty years.
Care to calculate the odds?
The odds are that we are going to see seven more of the world's finest men and women blasted into kingdom come - all from the comfort of our living rooms - TWICE more over the next twenty years.
Considering that the shuttle fleet is aging - note that it is the two oldest shuttles that have already gone down - the odds are probably even greater.
Do you think we'll go three for three?
Fifteen minutes of fame is not worth another seven - or another fourteen - or another twenty one - fine men and women dying for.
I would like to see an end to this madness.
Glorifying these deaths as heroic only perpetuates the carnage.
I don't want to ever see this happen again.
And if we keep flying the shuttles - it will happen again.
And again.
And again.
It is now time to put a stop to all of this.
Before the next crew dies.
Sadly,
Epaminondas
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XL
Farewell to a name and a number
Recalled again
To darkness and silence and slumber
In blood and pain.
So ceases and turns to the thing
He was born to be
A soldier cheap to the King
And dear to me;
So smothers in blood the burning
And flaming flight
Of valour and truth returning
To dust and night.
Houseman
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Sorry to see this turn into a Shuttle "debate".
I think if you asked the Astronauts themselves they'd rather it continued.
As far as I know it's still purely voluntary.
It would be best if they have adequate Funding to insure it's as safe as possible.
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<< Considering the number or miles traveled while orbiting, I would suspect that this approach would suugest that Shuttle travel is safer than driving to your corner store. >>
Two out of five automobiles made do not blow up over a period of one-half their intended operating lifetimes and kill all seven people on board.
Two out of five shuttles do.
I think that speaks pretty well for itself.
Regards,
Epaminondas
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A note on the accuracy and usefulness of statistics - from Mark Twain/SamuelClemens, American humourist. Not intended harshly:
‘The remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”.’
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I realize you couldn't see my tongue in my cheek, but actually I was trying to demonstrate that very point--that depending on the approach you take on numbers you can build a case for any number of conclusions.
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As my psycology teacher said:
There's three types of lies: Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics.
Like Thomas says, you can get any result using statistics. But I think it's more safe to fly a Concorde than a Space shuttle if you compare number of starts and landings.
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I won't add to the debate. Just add my belated condolences to the families of the victims.
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It the take offs and re-entry that's tough......getting into Outer Space and coming back into our atmosphere isn't as easy as we have been led to believe. They were brave alright.
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<< I realize you couldn't see my tongue in my cheek, but actually I was trying to demonstrate that very point--that depending on the approach you take on numbers you can build a case for any number of conclusions. >>
Yup.
It can be hard to know intent - without knowing intent.
Thank you for the clarification,
Epaminondas
[ 02-02-2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]
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I tend to be a cynical sort but space exploration is not about money. Oh, as far as the government is concerned, it's about money. And there has always been a group of people who say, "What are we doing in space, when the problems are down here?"
But for the astronauts, and people of a similar ilk, it's about the need to learn. The need to absorb new information, and to be the source of that new information about the world, and about the universe.
I understand it because in a small way, I have that kind of sensibility myself. I'll probably never get to go into space. I would like to. Maybe in the far future they will want to see the effects of weightlessness on a nonogenarian. Then I could volunteer, and I hope they choose me, LOL. I would have liked to go West, in the last quarter of the nineteenth century. I would have liked to be on the HMS Beagle.
Exploring is a very exciting and fulfilling vocation. And some of them achieved their goal against great odds. They died too young, and their families mourn them. But let's celebrate them, and this aspect of the human spirit, which exists in many of us. They knew the risks inherent in space travel. I don't think they were afraid, and I don't think they suffered. Look at the banner, and see the faces of the astronauts. They were not tormented souls; they were happy people. Their loved ones, the people who watched the shuttle break up, mission control and the rest of us are the sad, sorry ones. For the people that have the drive to be astronauts, or explorers, or to do groundbreaking research, let nothing stop them. Nothing can, really..
Fran
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A special thank you to those who are responsible for the TS banner paying tribute to the astronauts.
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I wonder if anyone truly understands how much we learn from each space mission, how much technology is developed and advanced as a result of the space program. This last one in particular was one of the heaviest payloads ever to return, loaded with science tests, experiments and developments. On top of everything already mentioned, so much was lost in the advancement of technology and the betterment of human life - losses that might have had incalcuable benefits.
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The world mourns for the seven loss that again brought our kind one step closer to space(travel).
Even after 1969, i still believe that every single austronaut/cosmonaut is a pioneer in what he's doing for all of us.
No mather what nation launched the spaceprobe, no mather who's nationality is up in space, i feel that when it comes to space traveling... it seems it's the only time different nationalities find a way to work together, to build something that is beyond our imagination.
What happened is a tragedy, no mather what caused it to happen.
My sympathy to their families and relatives.