Post by: Buck on February 27, 2011, 06:38:28 AM
5,10,15 sec or longer than usual between commands?
Post by: jchuzi on February 27, 2011, 07:36:09 AM
1. Which OS are you using?
2. What is the hard drive capacity and how much free space does it have?
3. How much RAM is installed?
4. Does this happen with every application or a particular one? Be as specific as possible regarding the exact circumstances.
5. Which Mac model are you using?
The problem could be caused by having a hard drive that is too full or is developing bad blocks, running a memory-intensive app that requires more RAM, running out of space for swap files, having directory damage, etc. The more information that you provide, the easier it will be to suggest a diagnosis and remedy.
Post by: Paddy on February 27, 2011, 08:36:34 AM
Some apps - like Safari, for instance, seem to still have "memory leaks" - where they consume memory, but fail to release it back when done. Eventually, things become slooow as a result.So try a restart, along with answering the rest of Jon's questions.
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa;j...6�
Post by: FLASH1296 on February 27, 2011, 09:17:51 AM
You have a minimal amount of Ram.
Post by: Buck on February 27, 2011, 11:03:14 AM
I've run Applejack & did the P-ram think. Seems to fix it somewhat but not for long.
Machine Name: eMac
Machine Model PowerMac4,4
CPU Type: PowerPC G4 (2.1)
Number Of CPUs: 1
CPU Speed: 800 MHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 256 KB
Memory: 256 MB
Bus Speed:100 MHz
Mac X 10.4.11
More info:
Format : Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
Capacity : 55.8 GB (59,888,222,208 Bytes)
Available : 46.9 GB (50,323,144,704 Bytes)
Number of Folders : 26,758
Number of Files :106,736
Post by: jchuzi on February 27, 2011, 11:28:40 AM
In the meantime, run the diagnostics described in Mac OS X - Using Disk Utility to Repair a Disk. SMART (described in that article) is not infallible except if it gives the drive a failing grade. Then, you can believe it. If SMART says that the drive is OK, maybe it's true and maybe not. At any rate, running those things won't hurt. Where you are really hurting is the amount of RAM.
Post by: Paddy on February 27, 2011, 11:58:57 AM
If you start up Activity Monitor (Utilities->Activity Monitor) and click on the Memory tab, look at the bottom part of the window and tell us what it says for Page Ins and Page Outs. My guess is that your Page Outs will be very high in relation to your Page Ins. You can even see (in Terminal) how often this is happening, but I think that is probably unnecessary as I have little doubt that the problem is sheer lack of RAM.
Info from Apple on RAM: http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1342
Very good explanation of what is happening and why your system is slow:
http://macosx.com/forums/mac-os-x-system-m...ot-fashion.html
QUOTE
OK, to summarise what it means, your computer has a certain amount of RAM, which is its "memory". It simulates more RAM by allowing extra data to be saved to the hard disk, which is known as Virtual Memory.
To do this, it breaks your memory space up into "pages". Applications that need access to data that is in memory call the data by page. If an application calls a page and it is in the RAM, then it is a "page in" occurs. If an app calls for a page from memory, and that page is currently stored on the hard disk and has to be read back into the RAM, then a "Page Out" occurs.
A "Page-out" slows the operation of the system down because it has to read the data from a hard disk into RAM first, rather than reading straight from the RAM. Hard disks take about 300 times as long to transfer a page of data, which adds up to slow performance.
If page-outs exceed page-ins, you definitely don't have enough RAM. Ideally, page-outs should be less than 20% of the number of page-ins (the fewer page-outs, the faster your machine is performing) On my machine, I aim for less than 5%.
To do this, it breaks your memory space up into "pages". Applications that need access to data that is in memory call the data by page. If an application calls a page and it is in the RAM, then it is a "page in" occurs. If an app calls for a page from memory, and that page is currently stored on the hard disk and has to be read back into the RAM, then a "Page Out" occurs.
A "Page-out" slows the operation of the system down because it has to read the data from a hard disk into RAM first, rather than reading straight from the RAM. Hard disks take about 300 times as long to transfer a page of data, which adds up to slow performance.
If page-outs exceed page-ins, you definitely don't have enough RAM. Ideally, page-outs should be less than 20% of the number of page-ins (the fewer page-outs, the faster your machine is performing) On my machine, I aim for less than 5%.
Assuming that you've probably got 2 128MB RAM modules in there right now, I'd strongly suggest that you spend $30-$40 and get two 512MB modules ASAP.
http://www.18004memory.com/apple-emac-700-...4lla-.asp?pl=rs
http://www.datamemorysystems.com/_memory-i...33_DIMM_575.asp
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20Wor...ng/133SD512328/
I've dealt with all three suppliers in the past - the last two are extremely good - but I never had any problems with 1800's RAM either.
Someone here might have a couple of sticks lying around too - if I did, I'd send them to you.
Post by: jchuzi on February 27, 2011, 12:51:43 PM
Even though RAM is cheap, do you want to put any money into a computer that is officially obsolete (Apple's designation)? It was discontinued as of May 2003 and you already have the maximum OS that it can run. As time goes on, OS 10.4 will be less and less able to cope with new apps. You may be forced to upgrade just to be able to access websites that have newer standards.
If you have some spare cash, consider investing in a new computer. If you like desktops, the new iMacs are outstanding and you'll be amazed at the difference in performance between any one of them and your eMac. That said, the cheapest and most cost-effective way to improve performance is to add RAM so let your budget be your guide.
Post by: Buck on February 27, 2011, 01:34:29 PM
But I must say that I've had this emac as of 06 and never
had an issue as this until resently.
I have never had more than 512 Mb.
Post by: Paddy on February 27, 2011, 02:16:26 PM
What applications are you running when you see this? As I've noted - Safari has had memory leaks for eons now - it's a well-known issue. Browsers in general tend to be problematic in this area.
Have you changed anything - new apps, what you're doing etc.?
However, nothing is going to change the fact that you really don't have enough RAM. And unless you're planning on buying an Intel Mac soon, it's worth it to spend a little to get reasonable performance.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 27, 2011, 02:24:54 PM
QUOTE
never had an issue as this until recently
That is no guarantee that you won't have any and even more problems. Are you expecting each new version of an app to be no bigger or require no more memory than the old version? Assuming that were even possible, are you expecting all those apps to continue to be supported? As many say, all programs have at least one bug, but most have dozens. Most developers don't have the time (after trying to keep up with OS improvements) to dig down to the bugs that remain in their earlier apps.I'd say nearly five years of use with 512MB of RAM is pushing the limits very, very close to the edge. And the "edge" is a dangerous place to operate!
QUOTE
I have never had more than 512 Mb.
And we all know that Bill Gates said no one would ever need more than 256K, right? I once had an Apple ][ with only 16KB, but it couldn't do a thousandth of what most smart phones can do now. 
Post by: jchuzi on February 27, 2011, 02:40:54 PM
QUOTE(Buck @ Feb 27 2011, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have never had more than 512 Mb.
How much memory do you have? Your System Profile said 256. Did you install 512 but SP only shows 256? Did you remove a module?As far as keeping the computer because you like it, there comes a time when you hit the law of diminishing returns. I had a 2000 Honda Accord EX V6 for over 10 years. It was the nicest car that I ever owned. The transmission was failing and the cost of a new one was greater than the book value of the car. I replaced it with a 2011 Honda Accord EX-L (4 cylinder) that is OK but I don't like it as much as the 2000. When my wife turned 50, I told her that I was going to replace her with two 25s. Six weeks later, I was discharged from the hospital...
Post by: Bbob on February 27, 2011, 04:45:24 PM
Post by: Paddy on February 27, 2011, 04:53:51 PM
QUOTE(jchuzi @ Feb 27 2011, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(Buck @ Feb 27 2011, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have never had more than 512 Mb.
How much memory do you have? Your System Profile said 256. Did you install 512 but SP only shows 256? Did you remove a module?As far as keeping the computer because you like it, there comes a time when you hit the law of diminishing returns. I had a 2000 Honda Accord EX V6 for over 10 years. It was the nicest car that I ever owned. The transmission was failing and the cost of a new one was greater than the book value of the car. I replaced it with a 2011 Honda Accord EX-L (4 cylinder) that is OK but I don't like it as much as the 2000. When my wife turned 50, I told her that I was going to replace her with two 25s. Six weeks later, I was discharged from the hospital...
Hmmm...my husband's 50th is coming up soon; maybe I should try that line on him. I'm older than he is, so I've been the butt of his "old jokes" for a while now!!
We have a 2001 Honda Accord Special Edition (or whatever it is - very nice, with sunroof etc.) that my mother drove until her eyesight failed. We bought it from her in 2009 and it only had about 40,000 km on it at the time. I expect/hope it will keep going for a while yet!
But back to the topic at hand, Buck...how much RAM do you have really?? If you copied and pasted the info from the System Profiler into the thread, you only have 256MB, not 512MB, which qualifies as just limping along/lucky you can do anything, in my books.
Post by: Buck on February 27, 2011, 06:00:57 PM
QUOTE(Paddy @ Feb 27 2011, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Buck, if you can look at Activity Monitor and post the info you see there here, we might be able to shed some more light on what is happening. If you can give us all the memory info from the bottom of the table (Free, Wired, active etc.) and the page-ins and outs, that would be a start.
What applications are you running when you see this? As I've noted - Safari has had memory leaks for eons now - it's a well-known issue. Browsers in general tend to be problematic in this area.
Have you changed anything - new apps, what you're doing etc.?
However, nothing is going to change the fact that you really don't have enough RAM. And unless you're planning on buying an Intel Mac soon, it's worth it to spend a little to get reasonable performance.
What applications are you running when you see this? As I've noted - Safari has had memory leaks for eons now - it's a well-known issue. Browsers in general tend to be problematic in this area.
Have you changed anything - new apps, what you're doing etc.?
However, nothing is going to change the fact that you really don't have enough RAM. And unless you're planning on buying an Intel Mac soon, it's worth it to spend a little to get reasonable performance.
********************************************************************************
***********
I did a complete reinstall of the system. I did this when things statred acting not so funny.
Of course this didn't seem to help.
How does one upload a pic here? I'm using Sceenshot Plus.
Post by: chriskleeman on February 27, 2011, 07:58:52 PM
When you open up a reply window to a post, below the text box on the lower right you'll see two smaller windows. The first one says "Manage Current Attachments", and below that, you'll see another blank window with a "Browse Button", with a green "Upload" box next to that. Once you've made the file on your computer, hit the "Browse" button, locate the file on your computer and hit "Upload".
HTH,
Chris
Post by: Paddy on February 27, 2011, 08:01:01 PM
To upload a picture, click on "Add Reply" and you'll see the options - "Fast Reply" won't give you any for uploading an image. (If you do hit "Fast Reply" then just click on "more options"...
Once you've got the full reply window open, you'll see a "choose file" button on the right hand side below the window. Click on that, navigate to your screenshot on your HD and then select it, and click "Upload". The picture will always be at the end of your post, BTW.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 27, 2011, 08:32:28 PM
If I didn't know better, I'd think she was brought up using Windows! 
Post by: Buck on February 28, 2011, 06:13:07 AM
Stopped usung Safari and switched to Firefox.
Guess what. So far no more spinning Pin Wheel.
Now why would Safari start acting up suddenly.
Safari had been my browser of choice but no longer.
I liked that one could type one or two letters
in google search & Safari would finish the spelling of that word.
Oh well, guess one can't have it all, right.
I hope this is the end of the problem.
If not, I'll be back. Thank you all for all the input. Buck
P.S. Forgot to mention that Safari would
stop responding or it would just up and
quit offten, multiple times on a daily bases.
I would file reports but got nothing in return.
Post by: Highmac on February 28, 2011, 06:52:23 AM
You don't have to have a problem to post
Post by: jchuzi on February 28, 2011, 06:58:04 AM
You don't have to give up on Safari. There's nothing wrong with it, per se. Try emptying the Safari cache, clearing it's History and perhaps some other housecleaning chores. Another problem with early versions of Safari involved site-specific icons. I turned that feature off in those versions and it improved Safari's performance. Later versions have no issues that way.
You can do some of these things with the appropriate version of OnyX if memory serves. I don't entirely recall how to do them in your version of Safari but you can start with the Safari menu and Safari preferences.
Post by: Buck on February 28, 2011, 07:09:44 AM
Mainmenu.
Yasu.
Onyx.
Maintenance.
Cocktail.
I don't run all every day mind you.
But these I do run.
Mainmenu seems to do a fine job on
getting the cache cleared on all browsers.
I run this one more that once a day.
I even run Applejack When things start getting to redical.
Post by: jchuzi on February 28, 2011, 07:35:01 AM
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 28, 2011, 08:53:28 AM
Maintenance doesn't do anything that Onyx doesn't.
The point really is, not what you run, but how. Onyx, in particular, has a very complicated interface but is designed to do a lot of things that Maintenance doesn't. Some of those apps do many of the same things. I'm not sure that having more than one app to do the same thing is useful or even advisable; do they do the same thing in the same or safest manner? If not, which one is doing it correctly? Are they all the most current version for your OS? If they haven't been updated for your OS version, should they still be used?
There were several suggestions in this thread that you have not responded to. The computer is quite a complicated contraption and must usually be examined in a very simple, rational, step-by-step manner. While a shotgun can get rid of the fox in the chicken yard, it won't actually solve the problem. I fear that you are reading them, you feel you can't or don't need to try the suggestions. Of course, getting more than one suggestion a day (sometimes even within hours) can seem confusing and frustrating. But, until each suggestion is actually tried, no one will ever know if it worked.
Your problems sound like a combination of too little RAM and too full browser caches. Browsers like to 'feel' like they are fast. A common way of making that happen is to store every page you visit in RAM as opposed to actually downloading the page(s) each time. You can set the limit on how much RAM they can use (browser prefs). You can clear the caches more often (browser menu). You can easily buy more RAM (check the supplied links above) (although installing it in an eMac may be another story). Once a browser fills available real RAM, it will start trying to use virtual RAM, your hard drive. Paddy mentioned, that can take extremely long, in computer terms, to happen. Changing browsers will only work if the caches have been emptied before it is started up.
It might not be a bad idea to start reading the thread over, from the beginning and writing down the suggestions as they come up. Then, start trying them, one at a time, and writing down the results. This will obviously take time and patience, as the problems usually take a certain amount of time to actually occur.
Post by: jchuzi on February 28, 2011, 09:07:28 AM
I have to make a two corrections.
Maintenance (free) is simply a slimmed down version of OnyX (commercial).
OnyX is free also.
You can set the limit on how much RAM they can use (browser prefs).
You can't do that in OS X although you could in 9 via the Get Info window. OS X automatically allocates memory, on the fly, to the particular app that is being used. The only exception that I know of is Photoshop which does have a provision in its preferences for allocating RAM.
Post by: Paddy on February 28, 2011, 09:58:35 AM
As I've said, unless you're planning on getting an Intel Mac in the near future, it's well worth it to invest in a couple of 512MB sticks of RAM, if you can swing it. I don't think you'll regret it.
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 28, 2011, 10:09:56 AM
Safari and FF both allow limiting cache RAM in their prefs.
[attachment=2148:Safari_C..._control.jpg][attachment=2149:Safari_C...ontrol_2.jp
]
[attachment=2150:FFCache_control.jpg]
RAM for general purposes is already acknowledged as being marginal. Limiting cache RAM is about the only alternative available, in this case. Along with running only one app at a time, removing as many background apps as possible and removing any and all hacksies.
]
[attachment=2150:FFCache_control.jpg]
Post by: jchuzi on February 28, 2011, 10:15:21 AM
Post by: Buck on February 28, 2011, 10:32:02 AM
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Feb 28 2011, 09:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maintenance (free) is simply a slimmed down version of OnyX (commercial).
Maintenance doesn't do anything that Onyx doesn't.
The point really is, not what you run, but how. Onyx, in particular, has a very complicated interface but is designed to do a lot of things that Maintenance doesn't. Some of those apps do many of the same things. I'm not sure that having more than one app to do the same thing is useful or even advisable; do they do the same thing in the same or safest manner? If not, which one is doing it correctly? Are they all the most current version for your OS? If they haven't been updated for your OS version, should they still be used?
There were several suggestions in this thread that you have not responded to. The computer is quite a complicated contraption and must usually be examined in a very simple, rational, step-by-step manner. While a shotgun can get rid of the fox in the chicken yard, it won't actually solve the problem. I fear that you are reading them, you feel you can't or don't need to try the suggestions. Of course, getting more than one suggestion a day (sometimes even within hours) can seem confusing and frustrating. But, until each suggestion is actually tried, no one will ever know if it worked.
Your problems sound like a combination of too little RAM and too full browser caches. Browsers like to 'feel' like they are fast. A common way of making that happen is to store every page you visit in RAM as opposed to actually downloading the page(s) each time. You can set the limit on how much RAM they can use (browser prefs). You can clear the caches more often (browser menu). You can easily buy more RAM (check the supplied links above) (although installing it in an eMac may be another story). Once a browser fills available real RAM, it will start trying to use virtual RAM, your hard drive. Paddy mentioned, that can take extremely long, in computer terms, to happen. Changing browsers will only work if the caches have been emptied before it is started up.
It might not be a bad idea to start reading the thread over, from the beginning and writing down the suggestions as they come up. Then, start trying them, one at a time, and writing down the results. This will obviously take time and patience, as the problems usually take a certain amount of time to actually occur.
Maintenance doesn't do anything that Onyx doesn't.
The point really is, not what you run, but how. Onyx, in particular, has a very complicated interface but is designed to do a lot of things that Maintenance doesn't. Some of those apps do many of the same things. I'm not sure that having more than one app to do the same thing is useful or even advisable; do they do the same thing in the same or safest manner? If not, which one is doing it correctly? Are they all the most current version for your OS? If they haven't been updated for your OS version, should they still be used?
There were several suggestions in this thread that you have not responded to. The computer is quite a complicated contraption and must usually be examined in a very simple, rational, step-by-step manner. While a shotgun can get rid of the fox in the chicken yard, it won't actually solve the problem. I fear that you are reading them, you feel you can't or don't need to try the suggestions. Of course, getting more than one suggestion a day (sometimes even within hours) can seem confusing and frustrating. But, until each suggestion is actually tried, no one will ever know if it worked.
Your problems sound like a combination of too little RAM and too full browser caches. Browsers like to 'feel' like they are fast. A common way of making that happen is to store every page you visit in RAM as opposed to actually downloading the page(s) each time. You can set the limit on how much RAM they can use (browser prefs). You can clear the caches more often (browser menu). You can easily buy more RAM (check the supplied links above) (although installing it in an eMac may be another story). Once a browser fills available real RAM, it will start trying to use virtual RAM, your hard drive. Paddy mentioned, that can take extremely long, in computer terms, to happen. Changing browsers will only work if the caches have been emptied before it is started up.
It might not be a bad idea to start reading the thread over, from the beginning and writing down the suggestions as they come up. Then, start trying them, one at a time, and writing down the results. This will obviously take time and patience, as the problems usually take a certain amount of time to actually occur.
And how does one empty a browsers cache befor launching said browser?
Post by: Xairbusdriver on February 28, 2011, 11:14:57 AM
QUOTE
And how does one empty a browsers cache befor launching said browser?
Usually by starting up a never used browser or reinstalling one after deleting all its files or using the browsers cache removing options just before quitting it or running an app that removes 'web' caches. As son as you visit another site, before quitting and before limiting the caching prefs, you will (re)create the cache file(s).
Post by: Buck on February 28, 2011, 11:55:51 AM
And how does one clear browser cache before launching the browser.
I was under the impression one empted the cache while it was open but it didn't take effect
until it was closed. So may ways of going things. I just can't keep track of who knows whats what.
Post by: jchuzi on February 28, 2011, 12:16:43 PM
In addition, you can delete Safari caches by going to the Safari menu and clicking Empty Cache or by pressing Command-Option-E.
Post by: kimmer on February 28, 2011, 12:52:16 PM
http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/How%20...r%20the%20cache