Post by: MamaMoose on June 24, 2003, 01:11:01 AM
• Will I have to go thru a new learning process to use Panther effectively?
• Will all my apps that I use in Jaguar work in Panther? Is this a new OS
requiring developers to redo their apps in order to work at all or even
effectively?
• Can I use my SDRAM that I have in my dual 1 GHz G4 or will I have to buy
new memory. And, if so what will the new memory cost?
• Can I move my current hard drives (2 internal IDE and 2 external Firewire)
to the G5 from the G4/ And will they work in Jaguar as well as Panther?
• Will the software I have that uses Altivec (FORTRAN compiler) work as well
as it does in my G4?
I do not mind spending the money (it will pay off in my consulting work) as long as I don't have significant aggravation getting everything to work. Note: remember my aggravation in getting my GCC Elite 12 laser printer to work in OS 10.2.5 or 10.2.6. Therfore I had to go back to OS 10.2.4.
In any case, I decided to hold off until I heard from trustworthy colleagues at TS and got their opinions on some of the questions above. It usually a good idea to let the early adopters have at new systems , letting them working out the inevitable bugs. But, I sure am salivating over the compute power now available.
Thanks for any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc,
MamaMoose
Post by: Spartacus on June 24, 2003, 01:24:13 AM
QUOTE(MamaMoose @ Jun 24 2003, 8:11 AM)
I was just about to order the new dual 2 GHz G5 when I was struck by a horrible thought: It will ship, of course, with Panther and that is the rub.
• Will I have to go thru a new learning process to use Panther effectively?
• Will all my apps that I use in Jaguar work in Panther? Is this a new OS
requiring developers to redo their apps in order to work at all or even
effectively?
• Can I use my SDRAM that I have in my dual 1 GHz G4 or will I have to buy
new memory. And, if so what will the new memory cost?
• Can I move my current hard drives (2 internal IDE and 2 external Firewire)
to the G5 from the G4/ And will they work in Jaguar as well as Panther?
• Will the software I have that uses Altivec (FORTRAN compiler) work as well
as it does in my G4?
I do not mind spending the money (it will pay off in my consulting work) as long as I don't have significant aggravation getting everything to work. Note: remember my aggravation in getting my GCC Elite 12 laser printer to work in OS 10.2.5 or 10.2.6. Therfore I had to go back to OS 10.2.4.
In any case, I decided to hold off until I heard from trustworthy colleagues at TS and got their opinions on some of the questions above. It usually a good idea to let the early adopters have at new systems , letting them working out the inevitable bugs. But, I sure am salivating over the compute power now available.
Thanks for any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc,
MamaMoose
• Will I have to go thru a new learning process to use Panther effectively?
• Will all my apps that I use in Jaguar work in Panther? Is this a new OS
requiring developers to redo their apps in order to work at all or even
effectively?
• Can I use my SDRAM that I have in my dual 1 GHz G4 or will I have to buy
new memory. And, if so what will the new memory cost?
• Can I move my current hard drives (2 internal IDE and 2 external Firewire)
to the G5 from the G4/ And will they work in Jaguar as well as Panther?
• Will the software I have that uses Altivec (FORTRAN compiler) work as well
as it does in my G4?
I do not mind spending the money (it will pay off in my consulting work) as long as I don't have significant aggravation getting everything to work. Note: remember my aggravation in getting my GCC Elite 12 laser printer to work in OS 10.2.5 or 10.2.6. Therfore I had to go back to OS 10.2.4.
In any case, I decided to hold off until I heard from trustworthy colleagues at TS and got their opinions on some of the questions above. It usually a good idea to let the early adopters have at new systems , letting them working out the inevitable bugs. But, I sure am salivating over the compute power now available.
Thanks for any thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc,
MamaMoose
1. No. Panther will be as easy to use as Jaguar. Acutally, you souldn't notice a difference concerning ease-of-use.
2. Yes. The IBM PPC 970 processor runs all 32-bit applications natively. Hence, you are not going to need new software. However, in order to take full advantage of the 64-bit CPU you'll need new 64-bit software.
3. The new PowerMacs use much faster DDR RAM. You wouldn't want to use the 133 MHz SDRAM modules.
4. Not sure about the HDs, since I don't know much about Serial ATA. Regarding the OS, it won't be a problem.
5. Yes. The PPC 970 has an Altivec engine although it is an IBM chip.
What I am hesitating about at the moment ist whether to order the Radeon 9600 or 9800.
Post by: bil207 on June 24, 2003, 07:00:07 AM
Post by: Spartacus on June 24, 2003, 07:14:55 AM
BTW: Apple didn't say anything about WHEN Panther would be available, didn't they?
Post by: bil207 on June 24, 2003, 07:29:01 AM
QUOTE(Spartacus @ Jun 24 2003, 8:14 AM)
But I think that Panther will be a free update for all G5 owners.
BTW: Apple didn't say anything about WHEN Panther would be available, didn't they?
BTW: Apple didn't say anything about WHEN Panther would be available, didn't they?
I expect that Panther will be a free update ($19.95 U.S. for S&H) for those that have purchased the first G 5s.
Steve said that Panther will ship before the end of the year.
Post by: kelly on June 24, 2003, 08:19:47 AM
Tom. They will ship with at least 10.2.6 I'm sure.
Hopefully you'll find a work around for your problems.
You can't load earlier Systems on any macs.
You may want to buy before they come with Panther.
Also, as usual. Buy the minimum RAM from Apple and buy more elsewhere.
I'm pretty sure you're not a Game Player so Downgrade the Video Card.
Games are about the only area that that makes any difference.
http://dealmac.com/articles/52678.html
You should be getting excited about these MamaMoose.
These machines are going to scream. Especially at what you do.
http://www.apple.com/powermac/performance/
Post by: Paddy on June 24, 2003, 08:37:39 AM
A quick search on PriceWatch.com found 1 GB DDR3200 RAM from Kingston for $174 and up. Outpost have Mushkin 512MB PC3200 RAM modules for $129 and Patriot 1GB modules for $219.
Serial ATA is a different standard - you will not be able to move your old drives without an adapter:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/storage/20020812/
That said, serial ATA drives aren't that much more expensive than ATA drives - and at the moment, Apple's prices don't look all that bad (surprise!) It's hard to figure out what the base price is, since there is no option for no drive at all, but if you decide on a 250 GB drive instead of the base 160GB drive in the high end model it's $119 more, and if you want two 250GB drives it's $499 more. Given that ONE 250 GB Western Digital runs around $425, this isn't a bad deal. However, if you decide to put in your own, smaller drives, a 120GB Serial ATA from Seagate can be had for $120. Maxtor are slightly more - around $140. A Maxtor 200 GB drive is about $299. So with the smaller drives, you will get more for your $$ than if you buy through Apple. Another interesting note re Apple's pricing - if you buy the low end G5, it's base model drive is 80GB. If you decide to opt for the dual 250GB drives, you'll pay $617. That's a whopping $167 difference for that 80GB difference between the top end base model and the bottom end base model!!
There aren't a lot of Serial ATA drives on the market yet - the Western Digital 250 GB drive just came out two weeks ago. I would imagine that we will see more and more of them - and the prices will drop.
SIIG make this adapter - I don't know if it will work in the new Macs - it says "PC" - but these aren't standards that should be platform specific. It's $49 at Outpost.
And there's another one for $29 - http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3634995
So, I'd probably get the base model serial ATA drive from Apple, buy an adapter (once I found out whether they actually work in a Mac!) and pop one of the old drives in and see how it does.
Post by: Spartacus on June 24, 2003, 09:10:27 AM
QUOTE(kelly @ Jun 24 2003, 3:19 PM)
They will ship with at least 10.2.6 I'm sure.
From what I heard Apple is going to ship them with 10.2.7, a special build for the 64-bit CPU.
I still can't decide which graphic card I am going to take.
The Radeon 9800 cost about 350 Euros more but has 128 MB VRAM.
I like to play a game once in a while and I am thinking if it might a good investment for the future. On the other I could also upgrade once better and faster graphic cards are available (and I feel the desire for a better one).
What do you think?
I am also thinking of ordering the DVD/CD-RW combo configuration. I am not sure if I really need a SuperDrive. I bearly use iMovie.
What do you guys use it for?
Post by: kelly on June 24, 2003, 11:22:19 AM
Like you say, you can always upgrade.
Also go Combo Drive.
You can always buy one cheaper elesewhere.
Probably faster before too long.
My 2 Euros.
Post by: beacher on June 24, 2003, 01:29:30 PM
purchase, NOT an upgrade! But it will have 100 new features.
Post by: Bill on June 24, 2003, 02:48:17 PM
When they put the label 'Panther' on it,new puppy,so you pay.
Post by: kps on June 24, 2003, 04:55:20 PM
Post by: Gary S on June 24, 2003, 06:46:48 PM
64 Mb is fine for most games these days.
Post by: jcarter on June 24, 2003, 08:16:08 PM
There is a lot of new Mac stuff going on, so I sure will wait until at least November. And I will be watching everybodys comments on their new purchases here.
Jane
Post by: Bill on June 24, 2003, 08:24:06 PM
We can wait till all the dust settles together.
Post by: Dreambird on June 24, 2003, 10:58:17 PM
Figure it's all too much for me still... besides I've got a puter and OS now that works so well, I get to "use" the thing and "play" with the thing... instead of constant upgrades... I'm happy...
Post by: MamaMoose on June 25, 2003, 03:36:11 AM
I do have a question - why is level 2 (3?) cache on the G5 much smaller than that of the G4?
MamaMoose
Post by: Spartacus on June 25, 2003, 05:48:03 AM
Here's my config. I followed your recommendation, kelly:
PowerMac G5
Dual 2 GHz
DVD/CD-RW
Radeon 9600 Pro
About 100 Euro less expensive than in the Apple Store.
Shipping date: August 2003 (they don't say when in August...
)I didn't order any additional RAM, because with 170 Euros it was too expensive in my eyes. I'll wait a little bit and hopefully, RAM will get cheaper in time.
Post by: Gary S on June 25, 2003, 08:28:21 AM
I'm looking forward to new buyers comments. I'm sure Spartacus will will give us the skinny on his when it arrives.
Post by: giantmike on June 25, 2003, 08:39:34 AM
To answer Mammamoose's question: L2 and L3 Cache is a very fast type of memory that can store data close to the CPU (the data comes from what is stored in RAM). I won't go into how the data is put back and forth, but you should know that it was created to help things speed up a bit. In the new G5s, there is no L3 cache, and only a small ammount of L2 cache as you have noticed. This is because of the new 1Ghz frontside bus (on the 2GHZ model), and the very very fast RAM in the machine. The transfer of data tofrom the RAM to the CPU is already very fast on these busses, so the extra cache would only be a minimal performance gain. For the extra money it would be to put the cache on the chips, it's not worth it.
Hope that helps a little. Explaining how cache truely works would take pages of typing, something I don't have time for before work
Post by: Bill on June 25, 2003, 09:53:55 AM
QUOTE
n the new G5s, there is no L3 cache, and only a small ammount of L2 cache as you have noticed. This is because of the new 1Ghz frontside bus (on the 2GHZ model), and the very very fast RAM in the machine. The transfer of data to from the RAM to the CPU is already very fast on these busses
I'm by no means an expert but -lightbulb flash-!
Seems to me thats a partially opened door to be slammed wide open for Apple/IBM development group. Rev C ... now has etc etc etc
Perhaps the 3gigs are becoming a reality by that road?
Post by: MamaMoose on June 25, 2003, 10:43:33 PM
Thanks for the explanation. It triggered my memory from the days when GE first proposed and then implemented virtual memoty (early 70's). It appears the frontside bus replaces L2 and L3 which are part of the old virtual memory memory hierarchy. The eased the weay in moving pages frfom the xtremely fast RAM back to much slower storage (tape, drum, disk, etc.).
Is that correct?
Mom da Moose
Post by: giantmike on June 26, 2003, 05:03:23 PM
Virtual memory, on the other hand, has to do with paging. f you ever used the terminal to run the 'top' command, one of the statistics it shows is how many page ins and page outs have occured. What happens when you run a process (a program is made up of one or more processes), a copy of that process is created. This process, or the combination of all processes may be too large to fit in your physical memory. In that case, only the active parts of the processe(s) are kept in physical memory, and the rest of it is kept on the hard drive. When a process does something, it first looks to use the part of it in physical memory, as that is much faster than a hard drive. If it doesn't find it, it has to look for what it needs on the hard drive, bring a chuck (page) over to physical memory, and keeps on working.
The concept behind both cache and virtual memory is the same, to have the data the CPU may need stored in a fast location, so that the machine runs as fast as possible. Whenever the CPU can find what it needs in cache or a physical memory page, then everything works at top speed. But if the stuff it needs is not found, then a tremendous speed hit is taken. That's why it is good to have accurate cache, and as much RAM as possible.
Of course, this is only the basics behind both technologies, as explaining them would take many pages (deja vue?
). But you should understand well enough. It's amazing what one learns in a single semester of Computer Architecture
Post by: Bill on June 26, 2003, 11:09:26 PM