Print Page - Lion/Mountain Lion Downgrade

I think I know the answer but here goes anyway. Is it possible to "downgrade" Lion/Mountain Lion Macbook to Snow Leopard? I reckon that it will be a drivers problem. However does anyone have any thoughts or ideas?

I may be able to to buy a new Macbook Pro soon but would rather not have Lion or Mountain Lion. Correction, don't WANT Lion or Mountain Lion.

Sandy

Nothing you buy now will have anything except Lion or Mountain Lion. In fact, I doubt you can buy anything that won't have ML. It's difficult to buy any new hardware without also getting the latest software.

If you already had Snow Leopard and installed one of the newer OSs, you should be able to use a Time Machine backup or a SL cloned external drive to re-install on the main drive. However, it might require a complete erasure of that drive before hand.

I'm not sure why you don't want either OS, perhaps you could illuminate? My wife has moved from SL to ML with very few problems she couldn't figure out herself. No real problems with any apps, mainly getting the prefs back to what she wanted in various apps. Of course, she is not running anything that needs Rosetta, so that's not been a problem. If you still need that, I highly recommend finding a solution for the future as those apps will have less and less support, assuming they even have any now.

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Sep 14 2012, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing you buy now will have anything except Lion or Mountain Lion. In fact, I doubt you can buy anything that won't have ML. It's difficult to buy any new hardware without also getting the latest software.

If you already had Snow Leopard and installed one of the newer OSs, you should be able to use a Time Machine backup or a SL cloned external drive to re-install on the main drive. However, it might require a complete erasure of that drive before hand.

I'm not sure why you don't want either OS, perhaps you could illuminate? My wife has moved from SL to ML with very few problems she couldn't figure out herself. No real problems with any apps, mainly getting the prefs back to what she wanted in various apps. Of course, she is not running anything that needs Rosetta, so that's not been a problem. If you still need that, I highly recommend finding a solution for the future as those apps will have less and less support, assuming they even have any now.

Sorry I didn't express myself very well. What I meant was, is it possible to buy say, a MacBook with Lion/Mountain Lion installed and then install Snow Leopard. I suspect not due to driver issues.

As to why I don't want either OS. Several reasons. I did an "Upgrade" to Lion and was not impressed. I had problems with coreaudio. Basically my MacBook kept "losing" the output device. The workaround is to type "sudo killall coreaudiod" in Terminal. I don't mind using the Terminal but to have to this frequently on a random basis is not my cup of tea. We're always told that Macs "just work". That was one reason I went back to SL. Other reasons
1) I guess the folks in Cupertino must have reading Erotic BDSM books. Why else 50 Shades of Gray? But seriously I really don't like the new look. There is a work around to get the colours back into the Finder Sidebar but it is not persistent between reboots.
2) No save as. What on earth are they thinking of? There are once again workarounds but not particularly satisfactory ones. It seems like it's a case of "my way or the highway". But that would fit in with the BDSM thing ;-)
3) Hiding the Library folder. This BDSM behaviour is getting persistent ;-)

There were a few other annoyances which I managed to resolve but Apple just seem to be losing the plot a bit.

I don't need any of the "features" that are being touted as great new ideas. Versions, Meh. Mission Control, I have always just used the keyboard to move between spaces. Etc.

Due to circumstances I was thinking of buying a MacBook Pro but don't fancy Lion/Mountain Lion.

Sandy

In reverse order:
3. Unhiding the Library is easy as falling off a log.

1. Use whatever method you want to show the Library; "Go to..." menu, a Finder ~~sunstitute~~substitute (good to have, anyway), etc.
2. Drag it to a Finder window sidebar.
3. There is no step 3.

2. ML has a "Save as..." it still uses the same built-in functions, but the choice is there in the File menu.
3. Your trouble with core-audio is not world-wide. Some have it, others don't. I have never seen it but I'm not into heavy audio use, just a twice weekly audio editing/disc burning routine. Have you searched for the occurrence of the problem in ML?

Almost every one will have a problem with one OS or another. Most of us just move on and make use of the new features. I don't like the 'fifty-shades-of-grey' either, but colors show everywhere else in Finder windows.

And, at least in the "Devices," "Recent Documents" and "Shared" items in Path Finder (which also throws in a Terminal window automagically if you want one!

I've also used Lion Tweaks, as well as Mountain Lion Tweaks for that, but, as you say, it has to be run at each restart... maybe an AppleScript?

I'm especially happy with the Auto Save function because my wife has refused to grasp the concept, many decades old, of saving often and religiously! Time Machine also helps there, of course.

I'm not sure there are too many drivers required by the new hardware, except, obviously, the Retina MBPs. But a thorough search might bring you some favorable news.

Actually, what I miss most are the double-arrows (usually only available via third-party utilities) at the end of scroll bars...

EDIR: Spelen erer!

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Sep 14 2012, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In reverse order:
3. Unhiding the Library is easy as falling off a log.

1. Use whatever method you want to show the Library; "Go to..." menu, a Finder sunstitute (good to have, anyway), etc.
2. Drag it to a Finder window sidebar.
3. There is no step 3.

2. ML has a "Save as..." it still uses the same built-in functions, but the choice is there in the File menu.
3. Your trouble with core-audio is not world-wide. Some have it, others don't. I have never seen it but I'm not into heavy audio use, just a twice weekly audio editing/disc burning routine. Have you searched for the occurrence of the problem in ML?

Almost every one will have a problem with one OS or another. Most of us just move on and make use of the new features. I don't like the 'fifty-shades-of-grey' either, but colors show everywhere else in Finder windows.

And, at least in the "Devices," "Recent Documents" and "Shared" items in Path Finder (which also throws in a Terminal window automagically if you want one!

I've also used Lion Tweaks, as well as Mountain Lion Tweaks for that, but, as you say, it has to be run at each restart... maybe an AppleScript?

I'm especially happy with the Auto Save function because my wife has refused to grasp the concept, many decades old, of saving often and religiously! Time Machine also helps there, of course.

I'm not sure there are too many drivers required by the new hardware, except, obviously, the Retina MBPs. But a thorough search might bring you some favorable news.

Actually, what I miss most are the double-arrows (usually only available via third-party utilities) at the end of scroll bars...

I found out how to show the Library. Lion Tweaks can do that. For the save as function I appreciate that it's there, kind of. Just not so simple or elegant. It's all part of the "my way or the highway" mindset.

There is no need for me to check if the coreaudio problem exists in ML. My MacBook is to old take support ML.

The only good thing I can say is that the alternatives don't bear thinking about. Windows 8, Gnome 3 or Ubuntu Unity anyone?

If SL on a new laptop is not possible I will have to reconsider my options.

Sandy

The simple answer is no, a new Mac that comes with Lion or Mountain Lion can not be made to run Snow Leopard.

In addition to the drivers problem, there's also a kernel problem. The Snow Leopard kernel doesn't know how to "talk" to such basic parts of the computer as the new memory controllers and such.

QUOTE(tacit @ Sep 15 2012, 03:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The simple answer is no, a new Mac that comes with Lion or Mountain Lion can not be made to run Snow Leopard.

In addition to the drivers problem, there's also a kernel problem. The Snow Leopard kernel doesn't know how to "talk" to such basic parts of the computer as the new memory controllers and such.

Thanks for a very precise answer Tacit. I didn't realise that the OS X kernel was so hardware specific.

As Edmund Blackadder would say "Oh bugger"

Sandy

If you must stay with Snow Leopard, there are several companies that deal in refurbished Apple hardware. They usually come with memory and often hard drive upgrades. There's one such company in my own community.

That's a lot of money to spend for a few coloured icons in a Finder Sidebar, however.

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Sep 15 2012, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you must stay with Snow Leopard, there are several companies that deal in refurbished Apple hardware. They usually come with memory and often hard drive upgrades. There's one such company in my own community.

That's a lot of money to spend for a few coloured icons in a Finder Sidebar, however.

I was really looking at a MacBook and unless the refurbishment included a new battery it would be more trouble than its worth.

It's not just the ugly look however. But as I said given the alternatives......

To be honest I'd rather stab myself in the eyes with a rusty fork than contemplate the monstrosity that is Windows 8 featuring the UI formerly known as Metro

Sandy

I'm reading this thread with interest. I've posted several topics with issues I'm facing right now with moving from 10.4.11 to 10.7.4. Ugh! I've received a lot of help here over the years since OS7. EVERY upgrade has been a challenge for me. There's been glitches galore for me. Thank God for TS! :-)

When ones design business depends on seamless upgrades and you don't get them, it's time consuming and costly. So, I'm dreading moving to Mountain Lion when that time comes. Is it my fault? Maybe. But I'm a basic Mac consumer. Do I have to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive to the store to get some milk? ;-)

Which begs the question, how does the average Mac User out there do this on their own? Most of my friends who have been buying Macs the last few years have even less knowledge than me. Apple's constant annual OS upgrades doesn't make sense. You TS Mac gurus love this! But it's a pain in the a**!
An upgrade every 2-3 years is enough!

Just venting! :-)

QUOTE

Do I have to know how an internal combustion engine works to drive to the store to get some milk?

Nope.

On the other hand, if your job is to deliver that milk, it might be wise to know some of the details of the vehicle you use to do that. Particularly when/if there are differences with a new one you may buy. An efficient worker knows how to use his tools and which one for each task. Certainly, he needs to know how to keep them in good working order and maybe even repair them.

If you are working for some one else, those things may be handled by others. If you are your own "boss" you'll need to do that yourself or have others who can, and you may even have to pay for that help... just like others are paying for yours!

And don't forget, this is a 'help' site. That means there will be very few people posting about that every thing is fine. It would be pretty boring and the only 'help' might be some data showing how many more people have no problem than those who do. As a matter of fact, when I see a site full of super experiences with any product, I tend to suspect the 'reviews' are fake!

People just don't talk about stuff unless they are having problems!

OK, personal experience just a few minutes ago. I noticed when I accidentally made the Dock visible (I don't normally use it for anything, so I keep it out of sight!) that the App Store was saying I had some Updates available. Three were apps, none of which I use much but I went ahead and updated them. Two were Apple items; iTunes something and Epson Printer updates.

First thing I do when I update any important app is to make an archive of the current one. Done. Although doing that for the Epson requires trips to both the OS Library and my user Library and I did a search in Path Finder to be sure I hadn't missed anything. Printers/scanners are notoriously finicky (sorry for the technical term) about drivers and once I get them working, I don't like to spend time fixing what some programmer broke!

I haven't tried the updated iTunes yet, I can always use the one at church if I have to when I burn a couple of CDs tomorrow. But I wanted to be sure my new scanner was working and I need the printer to print the CDs, also. I use the scanner normally from PDFpenPro. Opened it and it reported the scanner failed to connect. Hmmm... Image Capture reported the same thing! Both apps showed the scanner but weren't able to communicate with it.

Opened Print & Scan Pref Panel and there were two instances of the scanner.

I double-checked and there was only one scanner sitting on the desk. Clicked the "+" button to see if it still appeared in the list of devices and it did. Good news. So, which one is the bad one in the main window? Who knows, I just trashed them both and re-installed with the "+" button. Clicking the Open Scanner... button presented a window indicating the scanner was available that way. More good news!

Opened Image Capture, again. Still not able to communicate with it. I clicked the device list/Hide/Show a couple of times and all of a sudden the normal scanning screen came up with all the controls. We're getting there! But PDFpenPro still wouldn't work.

OK, turned the scanner OFF/ON. No change.

Let's do a warm Restart. Success! Now I can feel better about deleting the archived files later this month.

The point is, the computer is not magic. It is simple in the extreme. It only knows "Yes/No" or ON/OFF or 1 or 0. So fixing a problem with it requires similar simple steps or procedures. Do one thing at a time and test. If the step you took didn't change anything, do one more thing... and test.

Very importantly, this method also includes starting from a known setup! Preferably a setup that is working normally, without problems.

Don't make changes in the hardware and then add/change/update several apps and/or the OS and then test. If there is a problem after all those changes, you will have absolutely no idea what might have caused it or where to start trouble-shooting. Of course, I didn't completely follow my own advice since I did both the iTunes and Printer driver updates together. But I also have a backup plan (two, actually) should I not be able to fix any problem caused by them. Installing all three app updates is much less likely to have created any problems. Very few apps communicate with each other and even fewer from the App Store will be doing that with the new Sandboxing rules.

Working on a computer problem is really no different than working on any other problem.

1. Know what the problem is.
2. Make sure you have the time to work on the problem.
3. Have and follow a plan for finding the solution.
4. Know what you can do and what you can't.

Oh yeah, if all else fails, read the directions!

Hi Sandy,

The only recourse you might have is to try find a refurbished Macbook from early 2011. It's one of the last models that can run 10.6.8 and is also upgradeable to Lion and Mountain Lion. Newer machines will, of course, run faster, but I'm able to boot from an external drive with 10.6.8 with no problems if I have to run any PPC Apps.

In fact, this one originally shipped with 10.6.x, but when it was refurbished, Apple installed Lion.

My machine's info:

Hardware Overview:

Model Name:   MacBook Pro
Model Identifier:   MacBookPro8,2
Processor Name:   Intel Core i7
Processor Speed:   2 GHz
Number of Processors:   1
Total Number of Cores:   4
L2 Cache (per Core):   256 KB
L3 Cache:   6 MB
Memory:   16 GB
Boot ROM Version:   MBP81.0047.B27
SMC Version (system):   1.69f3
Serial Number (system):
Hardware UUID:   15C82AD7-9660-5920-A52D-B2B5E57E9CD5
Sudden Motion Sensor:
State:   Enabled

There may be some of these pop up from time to time on the Apple Store Refurbished section.

Happy hunting, hope this is helpful.

Best,

Chris

From this thread, I'm guessing my idea of being able to boot a new iMac from Snow Leopard on an external drive is a non-starter....

Maybe I could use Parallels....

XABD,
This could be an interesting discussion, but I don't want to hijack this thread. Can we post this as a separate topic?

Aside, still hope you will be so kind to help with my Migration challenges! :-)
http://www.techsurvivors.net/forums/index....showtopic=25486

I just don't get a chance to try your suggestions and then respond daily.

QUOTE(chriskleeman @ Sep 16 2012, 12:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Sandy,

The only recourse you might have is to try find a refurbished Macbook from early 2011. It's one of the last models that can run 10.6.8 and is also upgradeable to Lion and Mountain Lion. Newer machines will, of course, run faster, but I'm able to boot from an external drive with 10.6.8 with no problems if I have to run any PPC Apps.

In fact, this one originally shipped with 10.6.x, but when it was refurbished, Apple installed Lion.

My machine's info:

Hardware Overview:

Model Name:   MacBook Pro
Model Identifier:   MacBookPro8,2
Processor Name:   Intel Core i7
Processor Speed:   2 GHz
Number of Processors:   1
Total Number of Cores:   4
L2 Cache (per Core):   256 KB
L3 Cache:   6 MB
Memory:   16 GB
Boot ROM Version:   MBP81.0047.B27
SMC Version (system):   1.69f3
Serial Number (system):
Hardware UUID:   15C82AD7-9660-5920-A52D-B2B5E57E9CD5
Sudden Motion Sensor:
State:   Enabled

There may be some of these pop up from time to time on the Apple Store Refurbished section.

Happy hunting, hope this is helpful.

Best,

Chris

Chris

I would consider refurbished for a desktop machine but not a laptop. Unless of course the battery had been replaced.

Interesting to see that you have 16GB of RAM. I thought that Macbooks maxed out at 8GB. I'm always a bit wary of going down the unsupported road.

I guess that when I do get 'round to buying one I'll just have to put up with 50 Shades of Gray and Apples BDSM trip. In case anyone is wondering why BDSM check out Amazon :-)

Sandy

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FC723B/A
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macb...bolt-specs.html

This one came with SL originally, so there should be no reason you can't downgrade if you feel it's necessary. This is the same one Chris has, only slightly faster processor. It's the only one that I saw in the UK store that would take SL.

Sandy, refurbs from Apple ARE new (essentially) - the battery is definitely new. I've bought a number of refurbs from Apple over the years and NEVER had a single problem. Definitely the way to go if you don't want/need the latest and greatest.

That said, I'm very happy with my new 15" (non-Retina) MBP which I got in June. I didn't want to spend over $4K for something I could never upgrade, so lovely as the Retina display is, I passed.

QUOTE(Paddy @ Sep 17 2012, 06:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/FC723B/A
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/macb...bolt-specs.html

This one came with SL originally, so there should be no reason you can't downgrade if you feel it's necessary. This is the same one Chris has, only slightly faster processor. It's the only one that I saw in the UK store that would take SL.

Sandy, refurbs from Apple ARE new (essentially) - the battery is definitely new. I've bought a number of refurbs from Apple over the years and NEVER had a single problem. Definitely the way to go if you don't want/need the latest and greatest.

That said, I'm very happy with my new 15" (non-Retina) MBP which I got in June. I didn't want to spend over $4K for something I could never upgrade, so lovely as the Retina display is, I passed.

Thanks for that Paddy. Definitely worth looking into. I'm going to have to hang fire for a while though. A few things have cropped up over here. Not unexpected but I didn't reckon they would come along quite as suddenly.

Sandy

QUOTE(sandyman @ Sep 17 2012, 06:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Chris

I would consider refurbished for a desktop machine but not a laptop. Unless of course the battery had been replaced.

Interesting to see that you have 16GB of RAM. I thought that Macbooks maxed out at 8GB. I'm always a bit wary of going down the unsupported road.

I guess that when I do get 'round to buying one I'll just have to put up with 50 Shades of Gray and Apples BDSM trip. In case anyone is wondering why BDSM check out Amazon :-)

Sandy

I have bought two Apple refurb laptops; both came with full Apple warranties and brand-new batteries. I had great success with both of them (though sadly my white Macbook has finally bit the dust).

I'm typing this right now on an Apple refurb iMac, which I bought *because* it would run 10.6 (I got the Mid-2011 iMac, the last model able to run 10.6). I have one critical productivity app which only runs in Rosetta, and I can't give it up. I also have Lion and Mountain Lion on this computer (it came with Lion), but I boot into Snow Leopard most of the time.

I can't vouch for other reseller's refurb policies; I don't know if a refurb laptop from a third party will, for example, come with a new battery. But Apple refurbs are absolutely top-notch in every way.

QUOTE

Chris

I would consider refurbished for a desktop machine but not a laptop. Unless of course the battery had been replaced.

Interesting to see that you have 16GB of RAM. I thought that Macbooks maxed out at 8GB. I'm always a bit wary of going down the unsupported road.

I guess that when I do get 'round to buying one I'll just have to put up with 50 Shades of Gray and Apples BDSM trip. In case anyone is wondering why BDSM check out Amazon :-)

Sandy

Hi Sandy,

Macbook Pro's of this generation do support up to 16 GB of RAM. I had a friend who ordered an extra set by mistake, and by the time he realized what had happened, it was not returnable. So I ended up with a fairly cheap matched pair of 2x8 GB DIMMS. Although I haven't booted into SL since I changed the RAM, it too should support it.

Further, IAW Tacit and Paddy, the Apple refurbs are second to none, and you generally have what amounts to a brand new machine under full Apple warranty, and any of the refurbs are also eligible for AppleCare. This is my second refurbished laptop from Apple, and both have been spit-spot.

CK

QUOTE(chriskleeman @ Sep 18 2012, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE

Chris

I would consider refurbished for a desktop machine but not a laptop. Unless of course the battery had been replaced.

Interesting to see that you have 16GB of RAM. I thought that Macbooks maxed out at 8GB. I'm always a bit wary of going down the unsupported road.

I guess that when I do get 'round to buying one I'll just have to put up with 50 Shades of Gray and Apples BDSM trip. In case anyone is wondering why BDSM check out Amazon :-)

Sandy

Hi Sandy,

Macbook Pro's of this generation do support up to 16 GB of RAM. I had a friend who ordered an extra set by mistake, and by the time he realized what had happened, it was not returnable. So I ended up with a fairly cheap matched pair of 2x8 GB DIMMS. Although I haven't booted into SL since I changed the RAM, it too should support it.

Further, IAW Tacit and Paddy, the Apple refurbs are second to none, and you generally have what amounts to a brand new machine under full Apple warranty, and any of the refurbs are also eligible for AppleCare. This is my second refurbished laptop from Apple, and both have been spit-spot.

CK

Thanks again Chris (and everyone else) Definitely worth looking into. However as I mentioned above, because of personal stuff I'm now going to have to put a lot of things on hold for a few months. Here's hoping that it will all be resolved by the end of the year.

Sandy

What could possibly be more important than buying a new Mac?!

Let us know if we can be of help, we have a fairly good group in the HMTS* Unit.

*HMTS = Her Majesties TechSurvivors

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Sep 18 2012, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What could possibly be more important than buying a new Mac?!

Let us know if we can be of help, we have a fairly good group in the HMTS* Unit.

*HMTS = Her Majesties TechSurvivors

Without going into too many details, health issues, unfortunately

Sandy

Well, of course! But many of the HMTS group have also vast experience in that field, also. Some have traveled many miles by boat just to take advantage of those benefits! The one thing we all agreed on, however, is that you take care of the problem post haste and return to 110% of normal!

In the mean time, I'll contact my sources at Apple and tell them to put one of those MBPs behind the counter, so to speak.

Well.. Thanks for all the great advice and suggestions folks but I'm going to go down a totally different path.

I've decided to buy the SWMBO an iPad. She really needs and deserves it right now. I will content myself with an upgrade to my MacBook by putting in an SSD drive.

The MacBook Pro can wait until next year. It means I will (probably) have to accept Mountain Lion, but hey, sometimes you have to be realistic.

Sandy

REALISTIC?! Realistic!!! We don't need no "realistic" around here!!!

Just get cured (<salt> or <smoked>, your choice) soon!!!

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Sep 21 2012, 05:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

REALISTIC?! Realistic!!! We don't need no "realistic" around here!!!

Just get cured (<salt> or <smoked>, your choice) soon!!!

You mean both me and SWMBO I hope

We WILL both get "Cured" but the only smoking will be of the food kind.

Thanks for your very kind reply though.

Sandy

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Welcome to Techsurvivors => Tech => Topic started by: sandyman on September 14, 2012, 08:39:54 AM