Post by: Russ Kidd on August 08, 2003, 06:56:54 PM
What do you recommend?
How much do they cost?
Where's the best place to buy one?
Do CD's have to be formatted (like floppies) before you can use them?
Do you have to get special Mac-type CD's (as opposed to PC-type) like you do if you buy pre-formatted floppies?
Are there other issues to consider?
Thanks for any thoughts you have.
Russ
Post by: kelly on August 08, 2003, 07:22:57 PM
One option is an External Firewire CDRW.
$110 or so.
I have an External SCSI CDRW myself. That's another option.
The CD-Rs and CD-RWs work on macs or PCs.
650 to 800 MBs worth. $10 for 25 or less.
Post by: kelly on August 08, 2003, 07:35:46 PM
http://stn2.headgap.com/resale/FMPro?-toke...egory=cds&-find
You can buy CDR Disks eveywhere. Best Buy. K-Mart. Whatever.
I like Maxells myself.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 08, 2003, 08:20:58 PM
My ultimate goal is to upgrade to OS X and I'd like to reformat my hard drive at the same time. So I thought it would be a good time to get a CD burner to back things up beforehand. Will the External SCSI CDRW work with both OS 9 and OS X?
(And thanks for the link you gave me to the $80 External 24 Speed SCSI CDRW.)
Post by: JohnKentucky on August 08, 2003, 09:30:30 PM
I would just save your money up and get a newer Mac...iMac, or whatever.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 09, 2003, 01:56:59 AM
Post by: krissel on August 09, 2003, 04:43:12 AM
Yes, you remember correctly.
Good news:
You can install 10.1.5 on the 9600 with the original 350 processor. I did so on mine and it ran rather well because I had 1.5G of RAM, very important on the older machines. You will need to get the XPostFacto program from OWC to allow the install. I used the original 4G hard drive for the install and have another 18G (partitioned) drive for OS9 and other apps, files etc.
The RAM is all 128 chips. I did interleave them (A1, B1, A2, B2, etc.) even though the XPostfacto forum says some people have to deinterleave to run X. Best is to use chips purchased at the same time for the interleaving, ie, same chips on the A1, B1 and so on.
I did lose one chip along the way in my troubleshooting process (see below) which I think I may have damaged myself or it just couldn't take all the in and out movement. Anyway I now have 1.37G which is running fine.
Bad news:
You will not be able to install Jag or higher unless you upgrade the processor to a G3/4 and you will also need a better video card than the 8MB Twin Turbo that was stock. I upgraded to a G4 and added a 32MB video card with the intent of installing Jag but ran in to a problem where the install CD did not recognize the drives in the machine. I tried all the troubleshooting suggested at the OWC forum except changing the SCSI chains internally. I removed all PCI cards except video, deinterleaved RAM as much as possible, but never got to the install point. I was really tired of fooling around and decided to just live with the extra speed gain of the new processor and video and stick with 9.1 for now.
Oddly X.1.5 would run fine with the old unsupported 350 processor but not with the new G4. Go figure.
Additionally there are major issues with getting printers, scanners, etc. to run with X on older machines. My two printers were serial so they weren’t recognized. My CDRW was SCSI external and was invisible despite trying third party apps that claimed to work.
I now have firewire/USB cards that are connected to external dirves, mice, new 52xCDRW, card reader, etc. and all works fine with 9.1. I also have a Wacom tablet that would not have been usable under X.
If I hadn’t the investment in externals and was looking at the G5 almost here, I certainly wouldn’t spend money on that major an upgrade. Depending on what you do with your machine, about the only addition I would recommend economically speaking besides RAM is firewire/USB cards to run externals. Any CDRWs, scanners, printers or drives you purchase as externals could always be used later with a newer machine.
If you want to just play with X.1.5 to get the feel of X then it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to put in on the 9600. I didn't run into any problems on the original X install and I had to go through about 3 or 4 incremental upgrades which are now rolled into one, I think. Just read through all the info on the XPostfacto site and believe that it will work. Do back up everything first though just in case.
Mi dos centavos..
Happy to answer any further questions...
she said...
Post by: Bill on August 09, 2003, 02:58:31 PM
I use Toast just about exclusively with a burner.
Most likely when you decide on which one you want, it will have a toast lite version. Which is fine in itself. The full version has a few extra features.
Look around at Roxio.com
They're update page is here.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 09, 2003, 04:13:33 PM
Thanks for such a complete rundown on your experience with all of this. I think maybe for me it's best that I stick with OS 9, especially since OS X wasn't meant for my machine and I'm not advanced enough to deal with the incompatibilities with the older peripherals like you mentioned.
I like your suggestion of getting Firewire and USB cards.
I'm hoping to reformat my hard drive, mainly to solve a modem slow-connection problem I've had for a long time (it's not the modem--just bought a new one and have same problem). Plus I'd like to clean out a few cobwebs.
I think I'll just reinstall OS 9.0.4 after the reformat.
Russ
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 09, 2003, 04:15:18 PM
Post by: kelly on August 09, 2003, 06:56:30 PM
Which I agree might be best.
You might still be better off with that SCSI External.
It's comparable technology with what you've got.
Less chance for complications from Firewire. If any.
External Firwire plus Card is going to be much more than the SCSI.
Just my opinion.
Post by: krissel on August 09, 2003, 07:01:18 PM
I'm pretty comfortable inside the 9600 case after all the fiddling so if you have any further questions let me know. Adding firewire/USB would be easy and inexpensive yet give you so many more options.
One suggestion, if you do reformat and reinstall 9.04, you really should update to 9.1.
It was a long time ago when I first did that but I do remember things being more stable and a few little quirks went away. Who knows, mayber your modem problem wouldn't exist with 9.1.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 10, 2003, 03:11:29 AM
I don't have enough experience to know whether Firewire causes problems in older Macs. The only person I've heard from so far is Krissel, who says she's had good luck using both Firewire and USB cards with her 9600. However, she has upgraded her processor, which I suppose could make a difference.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 10, 2003, 03:25:34 AM
Thanks to the link you gave me to OWC, I'm feeling better about my 9600. I get the feeling they specialize in legacy Macs. It's a nice change from hearing about nothing but G3's and G4's. I always feel so left out!
Post by: kelly on August 10, 2003, 10:16:18 AM
That's partly my point.
It isn't for sure you'll have problems with a Firewire Card but people do.
The next machine you'd buy would, with few exceptions, have a CDRW.
You could sell the External SCSI with your 9600 if that's what you wanted to do.
Again. Just my opinion.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 10, 2003, 04:41:30 PM
I see what you mean. Thanks for the perspective.
Post by: krissel on August 10, 2003, 08:21:43 PM
There is a SCSI burner farther down the page but it is over $200.
Generally speaking SCSI peripherals are more expensive than firewire or USB.
Yes, there is a possibility of firewire problems but same with SCSI. All in all a firewire card will not only give you the option of a CDRW but also an external drive, scanner, etc. and you don't have to worry about SCSI ID's, termination and inability to hot plug. A USB card opens up to using all the new printers as well. The combo FW/USB cards take only one slot but more people have trouble with them than with single cards. My cheapo CompUSA combo card works fine for USB but not FW. My separate FW card works great.
Oh, and the PCI cards were put in before I upgraded the processor.
I have a 4x16x4 external SCSI CDRW which has performed like a trooper. But with the new burn speeds and ease of firewire, the only way I would recommend playing with that old SCSI chain is if you have nothing else connected and don't plan on keeping the 9600 much longer. Then it might make sense, but I haven't seen an inexpensive external SCSI CDRW.
Forgot... about 9.1, it is the best for your machine. You can run 9.2 with a special hack but I frankly don't see the need unless you have some application that requires it like the new Painter 8. I did copy some parts of 9.2 (extensions) from my PB that were suggested for the best use of my new processor but otherwise it's all 9.1.
Post by: kelly on August 10, 2003, 08:32:11 PM
What I saw was just an External CD-ROM.
I still think it's a good idea for the same reasons I've mentioned.
Check out some info here for your setup Russ.
http://forums.xlr8yourmac.com/drivedb/sear...h.drivedb.lasso
Post by: Bill on August 10, 2003, 08:45:12 PM
Easy example is I picked up a little external firewire hub.
If I need a firewire device temporally tied into the system, just plug it into it's own power source, then into the hub ... all with the system running etc.
.
pssssst .... another reason why I agree with Krissel is because she never jumps on me about my top-notch grammar.
Post by: krissel on August 10, 2003, 10:45:38 PM
One benefit of the SCSI CDRW is bootability. I can use the Yamaha 4x16x4 to boot from should my regular CD drive fail. You could of course install a burner in place of the internal CD drive but that is another ball of wax.
If you do go SCSI consider the speed of the external SCSI chain at 5MB/second. That is pretty fast for most burning speeds but at approx 150KB per burn speed you have to do some math to find the limit, say around 32x would be pushing it. On the internal SCSI chain you have a 10MB/second speed. Something to think about.
Still like the idea of FW, though.
Oh Bill, you know I wouldn't jump on you for your grammar.
Some other reason maybe...
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 11, 2003, 12:27:12 AM
I would love to have the convenience of the Firewire and USB and the ability to, for example, have a USB printer, but I took a look at the CDRW reports at the link you gave me, Kelly, and there are some definite hassles possible with Firewire. On the other hand, there were a few stories with SCSI too.
Yesterday I went to a Mac store near me to see what they had in the way of CDRW's and Firewire cards. They only carry one kind, a La Cie unit that they sell for $189, which comes with Toast Lite. I asked the guy why they only carry one brand and he said they consider La Cie to be the best. They have two kinds of Firewire cards: 3-port and 6-port. He mentioned a price of $89 for a Firewire card--not sure if that's for 3-port or 6-port (probably 3-port).
This probably sounds blasphemous to all of you, but one thing I could do is just take my machine to them and have them install a Firewire card with the La Cie CDRW on the condition that I get a refund if they can't make it work.
I always hate to have someone else do it because you don't learn anything yourself about your equipment and next time you have to have someone else do it for you again. But I also hate to get really stuck and spend hours and hours.
On the other hand, I wouldn't mind you all trying to talk me out of giving in!
I do appreciate you spending so much time with me on this.
Post by: krissel on August 11, 2003, 03:31:18 AM
A 3 port FW card should not cost more than $30 max and you can get a 52x burner for around $120+.
Here are some of OWC's products which are warranteed and most TSers have been very happy with their service and products. I am a very satisfied customer.
FW card
52x burners
I have the first 52x burner listed although I bought the parts and assembled it myself. I don't think you would be unhappy with that deal and all that is included. I can vouch for the fact that the burner works with our machines.
I was very nervous about going into the case and moved in slow motion the first time I opened it being very careful not to touch anything. By the time I finished with the upgrading I could almost do it blindfolded. Installing PCI cards can be very easy or you may encounter one that doesn't sit right or needs to be in a different slot. That is something you can't tell until you try. But if you are interested in learning about the innards of the Mac and want to feel confident mucking around you have to get your feet wet sometime.
Oh, here's something else to check out:
USB card
Post by: Bill on August 11, 2003, 08:56:46 AM
QUOTE
Some other reason maybe...
Me-sa such a nice guy too
Post by: kelly on August 11, 2003, 09:02:08 AM
You could buy a newer machine for what they're wanting to do.
Adding a PCI Card is not a big deal.
Just be glad that's a 9600 and not a 9500.
Post by: kelly on August 11, 2003, 09:28:37 AM
http://new.lowendmac.com/imac/edeals.html
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 11, 2003, 03:17:24 PM
Post by: Epaminondas on August 12, 2003, 10:57:34 AM
An alternative that might work: an internal ATA/EIDE CDRW running off a PCI ATA/EIDE card. Your 9600 has plenty of room for both. Just check out for compatibilities, first.
Advantages of the ATA/EIDE route over some other solutions:
(1) Cheap. ATA/EIDE CDRWs are the standard internal CDRWs in PCs. Both Plextors and Lite-ons would likely work in your Mac. You can usually pick up a 52/24/52X Lite-On or Plextor ATA/EIDE CDRW for around $50 if you keep an eye peeled on Dealmac. The ATA/EIDE PCI cards were running around $70-80 on OWC last time I looked.
Lite-Ons are the choice of the value/features crowd. The typically more expensive Plextors are the choice of serious audio types and people who prefer higher quality/quieter mechanisms with minimum burning errors - many consider the Plextors to be the gold standard CDRW burner.
(2) Speed.
(3) The ATA/EIDE PCI card would open up your Mac to cheap IDE hard drive and Zip drive and CDROM possibilities.
(4) Noise - external enclosures often have noisy fans.
(5) Upgradability. Compatibility with OS X.x.x.
Media: Taiyo Yuden CDR blanks are the widespread choice of CDRW fanatics. In lab tests, they typically have the fewest errors. I believe that Taiyo Yuden invented CDR media, so they have been at this for a little while. These CDR blanks can be a little hard to find branded as "Taiyo Yuden," but all FUJI CDRs made in Japan (not Taiwan) are Taiyo Yuden. You can typically pick up a spool of 50 Fuji/Japan CDRs for a good price - there are often rebate deals out there if you want to hunt for them.
Good luck,
Epaminondas
_______________________________________________________________________
ATA/IDE PCI controller cards (check with OWC for which will handle bootable drives and ATA devices):
OWC
EIDE internal Lite-On 52/32/52X CDRW for $30:
EIDE Lite-On internal CDRW for $30
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 12, 2003, 03:11:17 PM
How hard is it to install an internal CDRW versus an external?
QUOTE
(3) The ATA/EIDE PCI card would open up your Mac to cheap IDE hard drive and Zip drive and CDROM possibilities.
Could you elaborate on this a bit? My novice brain needs a little additional. (By the way, my 9600 has a second hard drive (Seagate) and an internal CD-ROM drive.) When you say Zip drive, do you mean adding a high-capacity Zip in addition to my original 100 MB Zip? I saw a 750 MB Zip disk the other day--is 750 MB the current Zip standard?
Post by: Epaminondas on August 12, 2003, 04:54:44 PM
<< How hard is it to install an internal CDRW versus an external? >>
External - plug in and go. Easy as pie - as long as everything works. There are termination issues if you are going SCSI - they are beyond the scope of this course.
Internal - one or two steps more difficult than adding RAM. The only tool you will need is a screwdriver that fits whatever screws you will be using. Typically a small Philips.
Still no guarantee that software and hardware will be compatible - you need to try to determine that ahead of time. One good way is to check out the www.xlr8yourmac.com drive compatibility database. Other is to ask the nice folks at OWC. Buy on a charge card with lotsa guarantees. Understand return policies!
Open up machine. Your new internal ATA/EIDE CDRW typically comes with mounting screws and an ATA/EIDE ribbon cable, but ask the seller first to make sure.
You will need a free 5 1/2 inch external drive bay - probably above or underneath your current CDROM. You pop the little plastic cover off (gently - do not throw it away), screw in the CDRW (four little screws), plug the cable into the back of your new CDRW, thence to the ATA/EIDE PCI card, and you should be good to go.
Oops - one important detail - you will also need a power cord to the CDRW. Same kind as fits into the back of a hard drive or a CDROM. Look around all the wires coming out of your power supply or attached to other drives (do unplug your computer from the wall/UPS and "ground" (well "equalize") yourself by touching the unplugged power supply before touching the computer internals first!). If you have no extra internal drive power plugs available, buy a Y-plitter when you buy the CDRW - this will allow one cable off the power supply to feed two devices. The guys selling you things will know what you need.
<< Could you elaborate on this a bit? My novice brain needs a little additional. (By the way, my 9600 has a second hard drive (Seagate) and an internal CD-ROM drive.) >>
The stock 9600 350 is an excellent machine - it's a real chick-magnet. But it is SCSI-based. No ATA/EIDE/IDE. None. Nada. Sorry.
SCSI is better than ATA/IDE for all sorts of excellent reasons, but ATA/EIDE is much cheaper. Cheap wins out over quality in my book any day.
Your 9600 has six PCI slots - one for the video card, the others are likely open. If not, you have some interesting exploring to do. This was the most upgradeable Mac, to my way of thinking, ever made.
So - you just stick an ATA/IDE PCI card into one of the open slots - and the whole new world of cheap ATA/EIDE/IDE devices becomes open to you. Just make sure when you buy it that it is bootable and that you can run CDRWs off of it. Note - these PCI ATA/EIDE controller cards built for PCs will not work in Macs - the Mac versions are more expensive than the PC versions (welcome to the world of Macintosh!).
The 9600 is a big box with lots of power and lots of room inside. Internal expansion is the 9600's forte. No need to go with the higher expense, noise and clutter of external devices.
If you do not fill a 9600 up, it will go hungry and it's stomach will rumble day and night and you will be very, very sorry.
Internal is good.
<< When you say Zip drive, do you mean adding a high-capacity Zip in addition to my original 100 MB Zip? I saw a 750 MB Zip disk the other day--is 750 MB the current Zip standard? >>
As far as I know - yes. Your limit is the limit of available external drive bays. Start countin'!
But once you have a good fast CDRW, you will likely find that you have no reason to bother with a Zip drive. After installing my CDRW, well - I haven't used a Zipper in years.
Off for a few day's adventure. Don't cut yourself (you won't on a Mac box - they are a pleasure to work in).
See ya when I get back -
Epaminondas
Post by: Epaminondas on August 12, 2003, 05:54:03 PM
The people here know a lot about the 9600 - ATA/IDE and SCSI. You might want to look around a bit first - the search button is your friend - before asking quesitons.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 12, 2003, 11:59:42 PM
Have a good trip.
Post by: krissel on August 13, 2003, 10:47:58 PM
Since you already have two hard drives, floppy drive, CDRom and zip in that machine you will have to put the burner on the floor of the case on what is called the "drive carrier". The burner would interfere with the video card placement that was stock from the manufacturer (last slot) so you will have to move the video card to a higher location.
Not sure if a sled or rails are needed for the carrier.
No big deal, just so you know.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 14, 2003, 01:11:17 AM
One other thing maybe I should have mentioned up front: I fiddle around with songwriting and need to be able to burn CD's of my own music with the CDRW. Does everything we've discussed so far fit in with that?
I.e., I assume there are some CDRW's that are not suited to recording music.
Post by: krissel on August 14, 2003, 03:39:13 AM
As far as I know most CD blanks are OK for music but some are only for music and not data. I use and recommend the Data Life Plus by Verbatim for data and I believe those would be fine for music as well (they've worked for me), though I think others who record music more than I may have other favorites.
OK, guys, sound off....
If you are referring to the burner itself, I can't imagine why you would run into trouble with any burner recording music. If it works for data it should also for music. I'm guess the software would be more important in that situation.
I think...
Post by: kelly on August 14, 2003, 08:59:03 AM
As far as I know.
The Special Music CDs are just a way to include a fee to the Recording Industry
in the price of the CD for those who are honest or don't know any better.
I wouldn't pay them anything for your own Music.
Some also hold more Data.
You'd just need the cheaper "regular" CDs.
Post by: Bernie on August 14, 2003, 09:00:37 AM
Post by: kelly on August 14, 2003, 09:04:54 AM
But I think it needs a Beige G3 to work.
The 9600 will have a SCSI Internal CD-ROM to begin with.
Maybe a PCI/IDE Card and this would work though.
Post by: Bill on August 14, 2003, 10:12:17 AM
QUOTE
As far as I know most CD blanks are OK for music but some are only for music and not data. I use and recommend the Data Life Plus by Verbatim for data and I believe those would be fine for music as well (they've worked for me), though I think others who record music more than I may have other favorites.
I've used Verbatims Data Life Plus for both.
By Kelly:
QUOTE
The Special Music CDs are just a way to include a fee to the Recording Industry
You've got that right!
Though not all "regular" cds are the same. Been down that discussion before.
You'd be better off doing a search here at TS alone on that issue let alone other places on the web. <gr>
Post by: Gary S on August 14, 2003, 11:43:00 AM
Verbatim CD-Rs work the best for me.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 14, 2003, 04:29:50 PM
Yes, I'll be using CDR's for music recording and CDRW's for data.
Thanks Krissel, Kelly, Bernie, Bill and Gary.
Post by: krissel on August 14, 2003, 06:10:26 PM
What may be important in your case is getting the full version of Toast, possibly Toast w/Jam if you are very serious about your recording. The platinum version of Toast (which I have) contains several extra programs for recording and printing labels, etc. It probably has more settings , bells and whistles, etc. I only use the basic settings for most of what I do so I can't speak to all it's capabilities.
You really should go and check it out. TOAST
Many other TSers record music regularly and can give you more info in this department than I can.
Post by: Bernie on August 14, 2003, 10:16:11 PM
I use Verbatim Blanks for Data also. Unlike Memorex. Good burns all the time.
Memorex =
Verbatim = 
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 15, 2003, 02:22:53 AM
Hey, Kelly and Bern, let me run my interpretation on what you said back past you and you tell me if I'm reading you right. (I need to be sure I've understood what you said before I can go further with it. I know it's basic stuff with you, but the light bulb is just starting to come on for me.)
Since the 9600 is SCSI-based, not IDE-based, I need a PCI/IDE card to run that combo IDE/ATAPI burner you pointed me to. And you think that might work on the 9600.
Hey Bern, did somebody try to steal your signature? You're the only guy I know with a copyright.
Post by: krissel on August 15, 2003, 03:37:12 AM
A few brain cells just kicked in and I want to clarify some earlier info and add some.
First of all, when I mentioned putting the burner on the drive carrier my brain was on vacation. That would be OK for a hard drive but not a burner since the media needs to be ejected.
You would have to either replace one of the upper drives with a bezel (like the present CDRom) or move your extra hard drive to the carrier below and use the sled/shelf of that drive for the burner (just below the zip).
Here is an illustrated instruction page for replacing the CDRom with a burner.
Install burner in 9600
Yes, the IDE PCI card will allow you to run the burner but there are some caveats. Depending on the card and burner you may have some problems with playback in the burner if it is in addition to the CDRom that is now there. Sometimes only one audio source is recognized. (There is also the possibility of a SCSI to EIDE adapter which would attach to the drive and then to the present SCSI connectors and then you would not use a PCI card.)
Do go HERE. Enter the search info CDRW, EDE PCI card (interface), 9600, 9.1. You will get several reports on various peoples experiences. Note however that many are older and won't apply to the more recent burners and cards. It will give you an idea of what may work or what problems you may encounter.
The more I think about it, for simplicity and ease of installation, the external FW burner would be most appealing to me.
Post by: kelly on August 15, 2003, 08:42:57 AM
It should work but I don't know that for a fact.
The advantage to the Apple Model is that it should be Bootable.
One disadvantage is that there are faster newer Drives.
Also. The DVD Player aspect of it may or may not work.
You're in kind of a dilemma with your model.
If you go Firewire Card and External Firewire.
You can get a really fast Drive and use it on a newer Computer.
That may be the way to go.
Then if things don't work out you can BIOK.
Blame It On Krissel.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 15, 2003, 05:46:55 PM
I did a lot of reading there and, funny thing, stuttering audio is a big problem with CDRWs when using an IDE PCI card. Mike Breen, who I gather is the founder of the site, reviewed one card in particular, the Promax TurboMax IDE PCI card, and said that audio stuttering will usually occur in pre-Beige G3 series machines. (Kelly, you were right about the card needing a Beige G3 to work.
) Even Promax itself recommends against using the card in older Macs because of the stuttering audio problem.I did a search at the site for reviews of CDRW's in 9500s/9600s with the IDE PCI card interface and found 14. I read all of them and many reported stuttering, although one person had a stock 9600/350 with no upgraded processor and had no problems whatsoever, so it's not a 100% failure rate. Interestingly, even in the reviews where stuttering was not a problem, the reviewer usually said he/she was relieved to discover that stuttering did not occur. So it's apparently a well-known problem. Bottom line seems to be that using the IDE PCI card is risky.
I think maybe it will be best for me to do what you did, especially since you had such good luck.
I think you said you can't boot from your CDRW. Did you say there might be an issue of my machine not recognizing both CD drives (built-in CDR and external CDRW), or was that just in the context of the IDE PCI card? I.e., does your machine recognize both?
Question: Once I burn a CD of my own music, will I be able to put that CD in my CDR drive and burn another copy in the CDRW drive? That would be nice.
Kelly, as you can see, I think maybe going Krissel's route of the external Firewire may be best for me. Plus I can pester her about it when I have a problem.
Post by: kelly on August 15, 2003, 07:45:00 PM
Sure.
Post by: krissel on August 16, 2003, 02:27:02 AM
For some reason the stock CD will not play music, that is there is no sound emitted. The CDPlayer works fine (as does SoundAPP) and I see the tracks counting off the seconds, Toast tests the CD drive and says sound is fine, and I have done every combination of pref tossing, PRAM zapping, settings in the Sound Control Panel, etc. but if I wanted to play music via the computer I have to use the external FW CDRW, oddly enough. When I insert an audio CD in the external I get a different icon (with a treble clef on it) and also the option of 3D stereo in the CDPlayer. This doesn't happen when put in the stock CDRom. I have no clue as to why the 9600's CD drive isn't playing music CDs whether commercial or homemade. I suppose there could be some connection to the upgrading I did last fall or possibly the Toast CD Reader which can conflict with the Apple CD reader. Nonetheless I can play through the FW CDRW with no problem.
Yes, you can just copy from the internal CD drive to the external burner. Despite not playing music I have no trouble copying music or data CDs from the internal to the external FW.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 16, 2003, 03:41:17 AM
Krissel, how odd that you can't hear audio CDs in your CDRom drive.
QUOTE
When I insert an audio CD in the external I get a different icon (with a treble clef on it) and also the option of 3D stereo in the CDPlayer. This doesn't happen when put in the stock CDRom.
Just out of curiosity, I tried playing a CD in my CDRom just now and the icon I get is just a picture of a CD -- no treble clef like you get with your CDRW. And I don't get the 3D stereo option in the CDPlayer. Those must be unique to the newer standards for the CDRW or something.
I guess as long as you can play a CD in at least one of the two drives and it doesn't affect your ability to copy music or data CDs from CDRom to CDRW, it doesn't really matter. But that's odd. It's also the kind of thing that tends to drive me nuts. As I mentioned earlier, I get frustrated fairly easily and when something like that comes up, I start to go crazy trying to find out why. You may not be interested in exhaustively trying to solve it, but have you thought about posting the problem at xlr8yourmac.com?
Post by: kelly on August 16, 2003, 07:12:18 AM
https://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm...tem=OWCYAMCDCBL
Really thin wires. Small plastic Connectors on the ends.
Post by: krissel on August 17, 2003, 12:24:58 AM
It's not that easy to just open up this thing and look as it requires major disassembly of a multitude of spaghetti cables and dragging the 35 lb thing out from under the desk, etc.
Will look next time I have a need to go inside.
If those connectors are not in place would I be able to hear sound from applications that run off a CD? I have some encyclopedia/history/education CDs with media that play sounds OK.
Post by: kelly on August 17, 2003, 09:28:15 AM
Yeah. Just take a look the next time you're in there.
Post by: kelly on August 29, 2003, 08:45:42 AM
This would replace your CD-ROM. $30
Hewlett-Packard 6020i 6x Read / 2x Write CD-R Drive W/ 50 Pin SCSI-2. Mac Bootable! New
http://eshop.macsales.com/Catalog_Item.cfm...&Item=HPCC6020I
I got by at 2x for several years.
Post by: Russ Kidd on August 31, 2003, 02:35:02 AM
Thanks for the thought. That's a great price, but I think I want to go Krissel's route with the Firewire external unit. Plus I'd prefer to keep my existing CD-ROM so I can make copies from it to the CDRW. I'm just about ready to order the FW card and the unit.
Post by: () on September 01, 2003, 01:11:55 AM
There are a lot of CDRW's out there and my personal favorites iare the IOMEGA and QUE-QPS cdrw's drives. They works well with Roxio Toast and I have never had a problem with any of their products.
Post by: Epaminondas on September 01, 2003, 01:43:14 AM
Lite-On 52x32x52 Internal CD-RW Drive - $15 after rebates / free shipping
Russ Kidd,
If this won't work for you internally, you might consider putting it in an external firewire box.
Choice is good -
Epaminondas
Post by: Scott on September 01, 2003, 01:10:31 PM
Post by: Russ Kidd on September 01, 2003, 06:10:14 PM
I checked Iomega's website and the only CDRW drives I saw there require newer machines than my 9600. I don't have USB, so I'll be getting a PCI card for either USB or Firewire depending on the drive I get.
I went to the QUE website, but the CDRW's I saw there didn't list the system requirements. Then I found one review of a QUE CDRW on a machine like mine and the person had some problems. Bottom line is I just don't know much about QUE.
Thanks for the input.
Epster:
Hope you had a good trip. The info I've read says that PCI IDE cards usually produce audio stuttering in pre-Beige G3 machines. In the xlr8yourmac database, I found 14 reviews of CDRW drives using IDE PCI cards on 9500/9600's, many of which had the stuttering problem. ProMax, maker of the TurboMax IDE PCI card, does not recommend using it on pre-Beige G3's. Unless I'm missing something here, I think I'd better avoid IDE PCI cards for a CDRW drive.
What's the "external firewire box" you mentioned?
Post by: Bill on September 01, 2003, 07:41:22 PM
I've had no personal experience with the "QUE" models but a few friends have.
One in particular has gone through three bad ones. He finely gave up on *them* sending bad ones back and switched to a Yamaha external.
I've talked to him several times since and he never says anything about it.
So I guess all is A-OK.
Oh yeah. He does know his way around macs and then some.
Post by: krissel on September 02, 2003, 12:13:42 AM
See you are carefully going at this. Good idea.
Just want to recommend firewire over USB when it comes to CD burning. You are going to need the speed of FW to be sure you don't have any buffer problems. My Lite-ON 52x24x52 is in an external FW/USB case and it works great connected via the firewire cable. I have Toast Platinum which allows for the 52x burn speeds. I don't know if the Toast Lite that comes with many of the units has that speed ability. It might be worth checking with Roxio to find out. That may make up your mind as to whether to get an already put together unit with software for a bit more money or getting the parts, saving money and then investing in the Toast software. (BTW, the new Toast 6 is due out soon so don't get caught buying the older version without a free upgrade). And make sure when you buy blank CDs that they are rated for that speed. I actually have 48x rated blanks and they burn at that and 52 speeds. I always verify after burning, too.
Also want to remind you that internal installation will require you to move your second hard drive down to the bottom of the case to install the CDRW at a level where there is a bevel opening. You do not want to replace the SCSI CDdrive you now have with the FW unit. It will not be able to boot a system CD should you ever have to, and you will.
I was burning the other day a lot of data backups and it was wonderful to be able to do a full CD in two minutes or less. Actually it took some getting used to since I didn't have time to go off and make a cup of tea or do the laundry like before.
Post by: Epaminondas on September 02, 2003, 12:23:55 AM
External Firewire Drive Enclosure
Note that this enclosure utilizes an "ATA interface" not an "IDE interface."
This is important.
This is just the box ("drive enclosure") - you have to supply the drive. An external CDRW is useful if you need one drive to transfer data between multiple computers or need one drive to backup multiple computers. Not of much interest if you just need a CDRW for one computer, however.
Note that firewire transfer rates are much faster than USB 1.1 transfer rates. If you are going to go with an external drive, you want firewire (or SCSI, but that's another story) over USB 1.1.
I do not believe that your 9600 is going to handle the faster USB 2.0 spec unless you can upgrade it to Mac OSX.1 or higher - a dubious proposition, at best.
There are probably less expensive external CDRW drive enclosures out there - perhaps someone else can point you to one?
<< The info I've read says that PCI IDE cards usually produce audio stuttering in pre-Beige G3 machines. In the xlr8yourmac database, I found 14 reviews of CDRW drives using IDE PCI cards on 9500/9600's, many of which had the stuttering problem. ProMax, maker of the TurboMax IDE PCI card, does not recommend using it on pre-Beige G3's. Unless I'm missing something here, I think I'd better avoid IDE PCI cards for a CDRW drive >>
Ru-Ru-Russ Kidd,
Exactly. Precisely. Correct.
But you are talking IDE cards.
You need an ATA card.
I would run this by MacGurus - they know the 9600 like nobody's business. If this problem has been solved - say, by a specific make of ATA PCI card - MacGurus can tell you how to do it. If they have no firm answer for you, then agreed - pass it by.
The xlr8yourmac database is excellent as a heads-up for problems - but it raises questions, it does not solve them.
MacGurus solves problems.
<< Hope you had a good trip. >>
She wants to get married in Paris.
<< What's the "external firewire box" you mentioned? >>
A little more on this -
As I understand it, all an external firewire or USB drive is - whether you buy it preasssmbled from QUE or Iomega as a package or put it together yourself - whether it is a hard drive or a CDROM or a CDRW - all an external firewire or USB drive is is a plain old IDE/ATA drive in box with a firewire and/or USB controller card inside the box and a port to connect it to your computer - wherein you have to place a PCI firewire or USB card for your computer to connect to it.
You are not buying a "firewire" or "USB" external drive. Ain't no such animal.
All you are buying in an IDE/ATA drive that has been stuffed into a box and jiggered to connect to your computer from an external source.
Some of these external boxes are firewire conversions, some USB 1.1, some USB 2.0, some a combination - but they all have plain ol' vanilla IDE/ATA drives residing inside them.
So - you pay a lot of extra money and put up with a lot of extra noise for an external box/fan/powersupply, a converter in the box, etc. for what?
An IDE/ATA drive.
In doing so you also often sacrifice some functions, such as drive bootability. This just depends on your setup. Which depends on your advance research. Which is what you are doing. Which is good.
Now - people (including myself) tend to use the terms "IDE" and "ATA" interchangeably, and we usually get away with it fine when dealing with hard drives, but not when dealing with optical CDROM and CDRW drives. But there seems to be a crucial difference: a lot of the problem with running ATA CDRWs off a PCI card is that "ATA PCI cards" can handle IDE hard drives and ATA optical drives (CDRWs), but "IDE PCI cards" may only be able to handle IDE hard drives and not optical ATA drives (i.e. not be able to handle CDRoms and CDRWs). So ya gotta be real careful when choosing an IDE/ATA card for an internal ATA CDRW - it has to be one that can handle optical drives.
I do not know if that is the problem people are having with stuttering internal CDRWs on the 9600 or not. The people at MacGurus likely already know that. You might be wise to run a search prior to asking - they are a bunch of swell guys and all that but they do sigh kinda loudly when answering the same question over and over and over again. Particularly one that they already solved several times years ago.
You are going to be running an ATA CDRW one way or another. One way - internally in your 9600, relatively directly. The other way - externally while converting it to firewire or USB - which seems kinda Rube Goldberg in comparison to me.
But, hey - that's just me.
An external firewire box may be the best choice for you. I'm just not sure whether or not that has been fully established.
Looks like there are several good ways to skin this cat.
Ruff!
Epaminondas
Post by: krissel on September 02, 2003, 01:33:31 AM
enclosure (third one down USB 2.0/FW 400)
burner (fourth one down)
note free FedX shipping for both
You would have to buy separate software if you go this route. As I said, I already had Toast.
My thinking on external enclosures is that one of these days I will be getting a new puter and when that happens I may install the burner internally in the new machine depending on what comes in the unit and put an extra hard drive in the enclosure, or maybe a DVD burner or whatever. While the 9600 can't use USB 2.0 it would be possible in future Macs. Meanwhile FW400 works great. Oh, and I can use it with my Wallstreet.
Post by: Russ Kidd on September 02, 2003, 02:11:02 AM
Thanks for your feedback.
Krissel:
It's amazing all the replies we've gotten on this. I had no idea there were so many ways to go, but I'm still leaning towards what you have. Being able to compare notes with someone who has the same thing is a big deal to me at this point.
Don't worry, I'm not planning to do anything to my existing CD-R drive.
Thanks for these latest links on what you have. That really helps.
And I like your thinking on integrating your current equipment into an eventual new computer. What's a Wallstreet?
Epster:
Hmmm . . . I love Paris in the springtime . . .
You've really given me an education. Thanks for your great explanations.
As I mentioned to Krissel, I think going with what she has is probably the best thing for me now. I'm just getting my feet wet with adding things to my Mac and to have someone with the same stuff who knows what she's doing is a big plus.
Post by: kelly on September 02, 2003, 08:26:18 AM
http://new.lowendmac.com/pb2/g3series.shtml
http://new.lowendmac.com/powerbooks.html
Post by: Russ Kidd on September 02, 2003, 02:23:54 PM