Techsurvivors
Archives => 2003 => Topic started by: RHPConsult on February 16, 2003, 12:35:00 AM
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A year or so ago when I was shopping for a digicam, I encountered a comprehensive and really helpful site that allowed selection of competing models - - from a lengthy roster - - so to create a comparison of a large number of features and prices. (In case anyone's interested, that site is being revised, but you can find info on it . . .
Here
Now, however, I'm shopping for a TFT display (20 inch), but I've been unable to find much of a comparison "engine" except those listing prices only . . . and even those come up rather short on info, IMO.'
So, thought I, why not ask Der SearchMeister to see if he might have something to recommend as an aid to researching this problem? Or maybe someone else also knows how/where to gather such comparative data.
I am particularly interested in comparing features of Apple's new 20" Cinema display, with Sony and Viewsonic's "competition".
Shhhhh. Please don't tell my spouse . . . the "result" of this endeavor is to be a gift for her.
TIA
[ 02-16-2003, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: RHPConsult ]
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Hi Dick. Belated Happy Birthday to you and the other "experienced" members.
Don't have much on LCDs, mostly CRT links.
The dealmac Forum is a good place to search or post on this.
For example.
http://dealmac.com/forums/read.html?f=1&i=...43796&t=1038996
http://dealmac.com/forums/read.html?f=1&i=...47524&t=1045882
From what I've read, you really can't go wrong with that Apple 20".
People are loving them.
They do best in OS X. In OS 9.x you lose some features.
http://dealmac.com/forums/read.html?f=1&i=...46644&t=1046644
Is this a factor?
Looks like you can save some money with a Dell or others, but are they better?
Probably not.
You should probably contact tortise about this. He can give some info I'm sure.
Though he's pretty much down on Apple monitors.
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Hi I really like the monitors here,
http://www.dealtime.com/xFN-Monitors/MN-Co...23/Product.html
Look for one with the Built-in TV Tuner
There's some 15" LCD's at reasonable prices.
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Thanks so much, Kelly.
Yes, I had checked with Tortoise, who has a concern about the 1 yr warranty of Apple, vs. the rest of the world (plus, for his work preference), multiplatform capability. He decisively recommends Sony.
I confess to not having known before this that DealMac had forums, so it's nice to know where other experience(s) can be sampled.
The qualities that now seem (possibly) important in my quest are easel vs pedestal support, wide screen vs "traditional" ratio, warranty, compatibility (w/o requiring all sorts of adapters and such), clarity especially in font viewing by . . . ahem . . older eyes (we're not designers out here) and grandkid pic "appreciation", and - - of course - - the $ involved.
Thanks for coming through again, Searchmeister.
[ 02-16-2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: RHPConsult ]
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Well - they're not quite 20" - and they may or may not all be TFT's (I dunno) - but this might be helpful:
January 2003 19" LCD shootout
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RHP I almost hesitate to comment in the presence of more knowledgeable folk, but I have had experience with a pretty good 15” LCD monitor. A KDS which I picked up from the “Loafer’s Glory - Super Store”, about 15 months ago. It quit suddenly after about 3 months, and I contacted them. I had a replacement within two days, and then, I packed up the old one in the same box, and returned. No questions asked, very courteous and I think prompt replacement.
They have 3 year warranty.
The picture quality, is far superior to my previous crt Mac and Sony monitors of course, and rivals that of my G4 iMac 15”
I used it on my Beige G3 with a Griffin Mac PnP adaptor, which was easy to set up and works great.
KDS also has adaptor, and some retail stores may have it in stock, while any good catalog house should have it also.
I have seen a number of units running in large stores with up to 40 monitors and computers turned on and there is a great difference in some.
[However, as you know, monitors can be set to suit who ever sets them up, and their reasons for doing so.]
21" monitor
17" for comparison retail outlets catalog outlets
Out here in the ‘boonies, I am kind of limited in what I have access to, so I am sure that someone makes a better one, and possibly for less money. But my experience with the KDS has been the best monitor so far. Apple should be so good about looking after their customer.
HTH
wd
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Actually, I'm going through the same decision making process in regards to monitors: I can't make up my mind between the 20" & 23" Apple displays; I've heard pros and cons on both: I'll read in some forums the 20" is better, while others say no, get the 23" ... I've got about 6 weeks or so to make up my mind. This display will be hooked up to the new G4 1.42 Ghz.
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There is a review in the 2/2003 Macworld on the Formac Gallery 2010 LCD monitor. It compares very favorably to the 23" Apple Cinema HD Display for $800 less than the Apple display.
The Formac has a 1,600 by 1,200-pixel display vs. a 1,200 by 1,024 display with the original 22" Cinema Display. Formac claims a 600:1contrast ratio, twice that of Apple's Cinema Displays. The Formac comes with a three-year warranty and no more than two dead pixels vs. Apple's one-year warranty and ten dead pixels.
I haven't had the opportunity to compare the Formac and Apple monitors, but if I was in the market for a large LCD monitor I would make the effort to do so before making a final decision.
I don't see the review on the Macworld website, but it can be found on page 43 of the current issue.
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Thanks, Mayo ... I've heard a few things about Formac that were less than praiseworthy: customer service is horrible, and the displays were "flimsy". But, of course, this is hearsay, so I shall delve deeper.
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I've also seen many complaints on Formac support, or lack thereof.
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Time for a bit of an "intermediate" report on my quest, should it be helpful in any way to anyone.
I've had a chance to compare the Apple 20" and 23" side by side and, to my aging eyes, the 20 is absolutely dazzling. BIG and beautiful and competitively priced (finally!). BUT, the question remains, will wp fonts be as easy for the recipient's eyes (which, also, are . . . uhmmm . . . "mature) to discern? The "real" fonts appear awfully small, however sharp.
Ironically that issue was addressed in letters in a forum that Harv found for me, where the discontinued 22" was compared to the new 20" and the continuing 23". Resolution-varieties aside, the physical number of pixels per inch are different only in the 22, now zipping out of stores at fire sale prices (which I have apparently missed). It is specifically noted that makes fonts larger and easier for "seniors" to perceive.
A couple of other notes.
Apple's easel support, I have decided is, in fact, "better" for us than a pedestal support, since I have always believed that the so-called ergonomic data one sees published, re: montior viewing, is simply wrongheaded. I've never seen anyone hold a book/newspaper/typrwriter!/whatever up to "eye level" to read and compehend (as many presumed authoritative computer-setup diagrams imply). Especially w/bi-tri focals, having the screen situated "normally" for reading, i.e well below "eye level" is far more comfortable and the Apple pedestal would facilitate that.
The "boot-in-9" vs Classic issue (w/the new 20" only) was simply wrongly described by a Jobs' minion at the Palo Alto Apple store . . . i.e. WRONG! To my genuine distress. If they can't get it right, how are we amateurs to do so? (I could, 'cause the trusty Pendragon has been looking over my shoulder, so to speak, during this quest). All the way from Maryland!
The truth?
It depends. Some G4s, depending on their video cards, will boot in 9.2.2. some will not. Ours apparently will. This is important because we have some really old word processor apps (and archived files to match) that require 9.2.2 (not Classic) to open successfully. (Fie on you, untrained Apple Store employee and associated inept management!)
Connectivity (w/o extra expense, that is) is a given with the Apple TFTs. Not so with many of the competition. Also, IAWK and sokukodo about reports of Formac's reputation for service. Lots of personal reports decry it.
So there you have it. I have yet to make a decision - - given the font-legibility questions remaining - - but the search for data is certainly a lot more interesting than reading a single review somewhere. Thanks for all the help to this point. Any other observations are absolutely welcome.
[ 02-19-2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: RHPConsult ]
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Thanks for much needed insight, RHP ... if the 20" and 23" are close, quality wise, what is the HD distinction? Is this simply marketing? hmm ... I was leaning toward the 23", but now ... the 20 is sounding better ... I only wish that there was an Applke store closer than Durham, NC: that's a long bike ride!
Incidentally, I can relate to the aging eyes thing ... I wear tri-focals, and I've heard that LCD screens are much easier on the eyes!
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Richard:
If the font size weren't an open question, still , we'd already have a 20" sitting on the desk. Its default resolution allows for easy two page viewing . . . but you probably should check-out the legibility of fonts at that resolution for your own particular vision.
I could imagine no reason to spend an extra 600 bucks for the 23", if the booting-in-9 issue doesn't apply to your G4.
The 20 is simply gorgeous.
[ 02-19-2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: RHPConsult ]
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Thanks, RHP, the booting into 9 really isn't an issue as I very seldom go there anyway ... hmm ... now I find myself leaning toward the 20.
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I have learned to take Macworld's reviews with a liberal dose of salt, so I wouldn't rely on the Formac review without doing more research myself.
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And the beat goes on........
Despite the bad/stupid/misinformed advice from both the Apple Store and CompUSA, I made a second visit today to fool with resolutions, checking various font sizes.
The decision has been made. It's the 20. Truly gorgeous!
But, our/her G4 tower has only a ATV Rage 128 Pro card as OEM which must be replaced by a Radeon 8500, according to the Knowledge Base, to accommodate the 20".
I've ignored a lot of prior TS threads on such topics in the past, unaware that someday they might have some personal relevance. Now I need to find out what to get and where to get it.
So its off to more on-line shopping. Any ideas on which direction to march?
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The latest.
http://www.macintouch.com/cinemadisplays02.html#feb21
sokukodo. Richard. Saw your dealmac post.
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Thanks, again, Kelly.
I got in touch w/ATI (Toronto) yesterday . . . 'twas a somewhat confusing website, but very pleasant and informative folks on the phone.
What I need, according to Tech Support, is the (latest and greatest) Radeon 9000 card. More power for less $, I'm told. That sounded like a good plan.
So, I just called MacZone and it's (20" and Radeon 9000) d-o-n-e. Thanks to everyone for their advice, counsel and URLs
Gonna be delivered after I get back from trip next week, so a "Consumer's Report" from the recipient of this gift will be a bit delayed.
[ 02-21-2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: RHPConsult ]
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Yes, I think I'm going to go for the 20" ... I'm now up to my eyeballs in opinions, and the consensus seems to be the 20" as a good all-round better deal ... some have even suggested two displays (17" and 20"), for the price of one 23", although I have no need for TWO displays (of course, the wheels are spinning, and I find myself creating the NEED for two displays). lol.
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Richard:
When I finally was able to try different resolutions, it "solved" the concerns I had about how my spouse's favorite fonts would be viewed. A key concern, since I believe our eyes are a bit more . . . uhmmmm . . . mature, than yours may be?
When I came home and looked carefully at her old 19" Radius, I was amazed at the difference I'm sure she will see. . . and enjoy.
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Well, I know, that at age 56, the old eyes are not getting better ...
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Ah, youth . . . enjoy it while you can . . .
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LOL! I'll try and keep that in mind as I try and dig myself out from under this pneumonia I've had for the last week ... nothing like illness to make one feel mortal!
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Cool Dick.
I suggested you might try the 9000 Pro.
http://www.techsurvivors.net/cgi-bin/ultim...ic;f=1;t=010282
If you're running Jaguar on that machine you might try this Radeon Demo.
Pretty amazing stuff.
http://www.ati.com/developer/demos/r9000mac.html
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I saw one of the new 20" screens the other day along side a 23".
For the money difference I'd get the 20 incher without hesitation because they both looked great.
I've always thought the 23" was bit on the overkill anyways,like the 17" screen on the new powerbooks.
If you're going to get a big screen,why stop at the half-half point with the 23"? Go and pick up one of those ((BIG)) monster size screens then.
With the 17" powerbooks. The whole point intended for laptops/powerbooks etc was portable. The 17" blow that way out of the saddle!
[ 02-22-2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Bill ]
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RHP. Which Sawtooth is it?
Seems to be a problem with some of them,
http://www.macintouch.com/cinemadisplays02.html#feb27
"No display using ADC connector on RADEON 9000 PRO MAC EDITION"
http://www.ati.com/support/infobase/4123.html
The following early G4 PowerMac® models featured an AGP slot, but did NOT include the extra power connection required for ADC (they are NOT ADC Enabled):
* M6921
* M7232
* M7824
* M7825
* M7827
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Uh oh . . . thanks Kelly for the "oversight".
I'm not home at the moment (attended the "monthly meeting" of TS' Hawaii Caucus this morning), . Accordingly, I won't be able to check the model number, sotto voce, until I get home tomorrow night.
The surprise is still scheduled for next Monday.
I really very much appreciate your looking out for me
[ 02-27-2003, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: RHPConsult ]
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No problem Richsrd.
The affected Models seem to be what they call Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics)
Pretty much a Sawtooth. 350, 400, 450
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58418
http://new.lowendmac.com/ppc/g4saw.shtml
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I too am looking to buy the 20 inch display from Apple. Will I have to upgrade my video card? I know I will have to get a DVI to ACD adaptor, I can do that... However I don't think I will be able to afford the RADEON 9000. Do I really need to get it?
This is what my machine has now: 350 mhz processor, AGP Graphics, ATY Rage 128 Pro, 16 mb card (video) memory.
I hope I am understanding this whole thread correctly.
Jay
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Jay. First. Do you have a DVI Port on that Card?
Notes
1. The Power Mac G4 (AGP Graphics) may contain a card with a VGA port only or both a VGA port and a DVI port.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58418
Second. Yes you will need one of these. This is a little cheaper.
http://dealmac.com/articles/47413.html
Third. I don't know that this will work. Just probably.
You'll need to ask when you buy. Or not.
http://www.apple.com/displays/acd20/
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I'm heading home from the Sandwich Isles in about an hour, so my curiosity is growing as to "which we have and what we'll need" I think, from only 2500 miles distant, that the G4 is about 14 months old.
These URLs will be genuinely helpful, Kelly. Thanks for sorting them out for me . . . since, regrettably, there appears to have been a lot of mis-/non-information being furnished by ATI and Apple last week, sad to say.
And I was clueless . . . as I guess were some of those writers on the other Forum.
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Well. You could be in to Quicksilver range then Dick and it won't be a problem.
http://new.lowendmac.com/ppc/quicksilver.html
In OS 9.x I just found that number on my machine in Apple System Profiler under Production Information.
Sales Order Number. For me it's M8689LL/A
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Whew! . . . I think
My Profiler only lists a Sales Order Nr but that appears to be the "proper" one M7627LL/A. Not on The List, it would seem..
More importantly, now that I can physically compare the box against the pictures on that very informative Apple printout, it appears we have a PowerMac G4 Digital Audio model, complete with an ADC and VGA port.
So I guess we'll be OK.
Monday is the BIG day, and I'll probably have time to doublecheck with ATI before undertaking the card switch, in preparation for the surprise.
I really appreciate your sticking with this mystery for me.
[ 03-01-2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: RHPConsult ]
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Thanks for the links, Kelly. I was looking at that apple care site the other day. Was very helpful.
There are two ports right next to eachother on the back of the tower. One is being used by my existing monitor. I assume that means that one is DVI and the other VGA?
Maybe I should ask this: What exactly do I need to have in my tower to get the 20-inch? What would prevent me from getting one, if anything? (besides $)
Jay
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Jay:
Check this site, to see if it answers at least some of your questions . . . lotsa pages to explore:
ATI here
Then, via Profiler and the matrix on that Ariticle 58418 that Kelly cited, you should be able to precisely identify your model.
That oughta do it for you . . . they surely helped me out of my dilemma.