Post by: Epaminondas on October 11, 2003, 11:55:09 PM
No beige box this - I'll bet the B&W is going to kick off a whole new paradigm in computer design!
I feel so - so late 20th century. I even feel like hoarding food and going out and buying bottled water . . .
. . . Back, now. Had to get some gasoline for the emergency generator . . .
The "new" B&W itself is a Macintosh B&W G3 450 Server. Revision 2 motherboard. 256 MB of RAM. Three zoomin' 10,000 RPM SCSI Seagate Barracudas in the 9GB category.
I hope to run it on MacOS 9.x using software which I own that has not yet been upgraded to MacOS X and that does not take advantage of the G4 Altivec engine. The G3 450, this amount of RAM, these SCSI drives and SoftRAID will be a perfect fit for this particular software - probably for several years to come. This particular box will probably never go past MacOS 9.2.2, max - except for some experimentation.
That was the plan, anyway. Too bad this B&W doesn't work.
When I turn it on - from the power key on any of several known working USB keyboards in either USB receptacle or from one known working ABD keyboard, or from the front power switch - the front power light button comes on, the fan(s) come on, I hear a half second "riiiip" sound like machine gun bolt being pulled back (probably a hard drive being momentarily accessed), a few more sounds of hard dirves being momentarily accessed, an occasional click and brp, and that is it.
No welcome chime. :-(
No sustained disk access sound of an OS loading. :-(
The monitor stays dark. :-(
Nothing on the monitor at all.
If I leave it on for a while, I hear an occasional short "brp" sound, like a hard drive calibrating itself.
Although the machine will start up from any keyboard I have thrown at it, it will not shut down from a keyboard - not via any keyboard combination I can come up with (one finger or three finger followed by the enter key).
So - I can only shut it down via the front panel power button.
Troubleshooting thus far - please note, not one thing has changed with any of this troubleshooting:
(1) Before I even turned the box on, on first receiving it via Fed Express Ground (it was double-boxed, better boxed than most, with no obvious damage - the seller seemed to care about what he was doing), I opened it up and, with careful anti-static precautions (touching the power supply first), I made sure nothing was loose. Also confirmed that it had a Revision 2 motherboard.
The only thing I saw loose was the end of the "Foxconn" SCSI ribbon farthest from the motherboard. It has some circuitry there, and is designed to be seated on a plastic thin square gizmo glued to the top of one of the hard drives. I carefully reseated it.
(2) Exchanged out the keyboard, mouse and power cord that came with the machine with known working ones. Confirmed that all these things that came with the B&W work fine on my other machines. So it ain't the peripherals.
Tried it on two different working monitors - a Samsung SynchMaster IFT 17" and a Samsung SynchMaster 957MB 19" - these work fine on both my other Mac and on my Linux box. So, unless the B&W does not like Samsungs (doubtful), it ain't the monitors.
(3)Zapped the PRAM via the keyboard on startup. Zapped the PRAM via the cuda button. Pulled the PRAM battery for over an hour. Exchanged the PRAM battery with a known good one from another working Mac (the PRAM battery that came with the B&W is working fine now in the other Mac).
While I was in the area of the cuda button, I also reset the PMU chip. (Actually, I am not sure which is which - the gray button nearer the battery is labled "S4" while the similar gray button a little farther away form the battery is labeld "S5" - there is no red button or any button labeled "S1.").
(4) Unseated and reseated RAM and every other plug and such I could think of. The PCI SCSI card and the PCI video card are in there very solid and screwed in - couldn't even wriggle 'em. Just pressed down to insure they were well seated.
(5) Tried starting with the shift key down to avoid extension conflicts. Tried rebuilding the desktop from the keyboard.
(6) Took a look at the drives - they are matching Segate Barracuda ST39103LWS drives - two have jumpers (in different places), one does not. I figure that they are probably properly jumpered. Disconnected two to leave just the last one engaged. Then disconnected that one and tried with just the first one engaged.
(7) Through all this, a couple of times, tried booting off a MacOS 9.x CD with the "C" key held down or with both the "C" key and the shift key held down. No dice.
(8) Took out one of the two matched 128 MB sticks of RAM - I think it's the good stuff:
The big white sticker reads:
MT16LSDT1664AG-10E27 PC100-222-620
SG NA1PP010 199931
APPLE 333-0317
The eight small chips on one side read:
9930 4-2
MT 48LC8M8A2
TG -8E E
A57V
The eight chips on the other side are similar:
9930 4-2
MT 48LC8M8A2
TG -8E E
A55L
Exchanged the two 128 MB RAM modules. The white sticker numbers were the same. The numbers on the small chips on each side were the same with the exception of the four-character code on the side of the chips: A4R2 and Y57L. Looks like the two chips are pretty closely matched, anyway.
Finally replaced both where they were originally - in the two slots farthest from the edge of the keyboard. Firmly seated.
(9) Pulled the SCSI card entirely (screwdriver time!). So - no hard drives connected. Tried to boot solely via the CD with the "C" key held down.
The SCSI card, assembled in Singapore, is as follows:
SCSI ULTRA2-LVD/SE
AHA2940U2B/
MAC APPLE
1795500 E
9928
FAB 1692307-00 REV B
It has one internal SCSI plug and one external SCSI plug. The gentleman at SoftRAID was kind enough to note that both will not work at the same time.
I know that there may be a firmware update on this card, but I have no way of knowing if it has been applied.
(10) Pulled the video card - heck, I wasn't getting any video, anyway.
ATI RAGE 128 GL
AMC VER. 2.O
During all this time I did an occasional keyboard PRAM Zap, "C". etc. At the end, another cuda button and PMU reset.
No dice.
My conjectures:
(1) Bad motherboard. Either from transit or from an incompetent/dishonest seller.
(2) I dunno some secret about how to handle a B&W.
(3) I wonder if the seller may have tried to put MacOS X on it without doing the appropriate firmware update first. Or may have tried to put an incompatible version of Mac OS 10.x.x or 9.x.x, perhaps without an appropriate firmware update. Or if he applied a firmware update which hosed the machine. If so, I do not where to begin in regard to recovering the machine.
I would like to get this machine running - if I can, it is perfect for my software situation. But if it's broke, it's broke.
If anyone can help with troubleshooting, I would greatly appreciate it.
Or next step is back to seller.
Thank you,
Epaminondas
Oh - I am already familiar with most of the relevant materials at lowendmac.com and xlr8yourmac.com.
The troubleshooting that I have not tried and why:
(1) Hooking up an external USB or Firewire drive. I have neither.
(2) Hooking up a known working video card. I have one - an Ultimate Rez - but I have kinda run out of steam on this approach.
Post by: kelly on October 12, 2003, 12:17:08 AM
http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G3-ZONE/trouble.html#start
Post by: Epaminondas on October 12, 2003, 11:15:29 AM
My thanks.
Checked out the information you posted.
I have tried tightening down everything in sight on the premise that something could have loosened in transit.
No dice.
People on DealMac seem to think it is likely processor, multiplier, or motherboard related.
Getting time to give up and call the seller.
Darn. Heck. Gee.
I really wanted this machine to be a keeper.
Thanks, again,
Epaminondas
Post by: Gary S on October 12, 2003, 01:12:50 PM
Sorry to hear it doesn't work.
I would call the seller first and ask some questions. Maybe he or she knows something about that machine. You would think they would, if they were the original owner.
Could you post on how it turns out?
Post by: tacit on October 13, 2003, 03:29:14 PM
QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Oct 12 2003, 4:15 PM)
People on DealMac seem to think it is likely processor, multiplier, or motherboard related.
This seems quite likely, sad to say.
One thing you may try is opening the side case and turning the unit on. If it passes all its processor checks, a tiny green light located near the IDE connector on the motherboard will come on as the computer initializes the IDE connection and attempts to search for a boot device. If this light doesn't come on, it's not getting past POST (Power On Self Test), which likely indicates a serious hardware problem.
Another thing to try is pulling the RAM and inserting one known-good DIMM. A RAM problem can cause symptoms like what you describe, though it's quite unlikely.
Post by: Epaminondas on October 14, 2003, 06:50:16 PM
(My Mercury Sable seems to be dying - after only 230,000 miles. Trash. This time I'm going to get a car that will last).
On paper - the Toyota Avalon looks very good.
I think I can probably keep it going 20 or 30 years.
But I am - I am unexcited.
Calm, cool, and quiet, yes.
But unexcited.
Getting a new car should be a bit of a thrill.
Does the thrill die over time?
Or is this just the wrong car for me?
Time to take another swing at the computer.
Thanks for the help - I'lll let y'all know how things go.
Epaminondas
Post by: krissel on October 14, 2003, 09:45:25 PM
Had a loaner from the dealer a year ago while mine was being serviced. Even though that car was new, the only difference from my buggy was it being about a foot higher off the road. The interior was almost the same with nearly identical controls, etc.
I think you have to be buying a very different type of car to get excited about it. I know if I were just to trade up to the newer Toyota it would probably only get me anxious about where I parked. Now I don't worry about dings from other car doors or being a target of thieves, especially since most of the cars in the town where I live are luxury or high end SUVs.
My little warrior sits among them like a wise old soldier... been there, done that.
Post by: sandbox on October 15, 2003, 03:32:51 AM
Post by: Epaminondas on October 19, 2003, 10:57:49 PM
TechTool Pro and Norton all check out fine.
It looks like a solid machine.
Credit goes to the wise gentlemen of macgurus.com, the 293 page B&W service manual, troubleshooting various, and resetting the logic board about six times.
Next: getting a CDRW, a Zip drive, and an internal modem up and running. Plus getting another PCI SCSI card running in order to access legacy SCSI devices.
And then I get to actually use it.
______________________________________________________________
The Toyota Avalon still leaves me a little cool.
Brother suggested considering buyng a used car. Something about letting the other fellow take the depreciation hit.
Heck - I do this with Macintoshes.
Why not cars, as well?
Starting to look into the possibility of buying a used Lincoln Town Car.
It seems that Town Cars are of fairly good quality and seem to hold up fairly well over time. And yet - happily - they depreciate in monetary value precipitously during the first few years of ownership.
The last big change was in 1998, when the body style was changed from the large rectangular style of earlier years to the more rounded style of the present.
I would be happy with either one.
A real highway cruiser - I always enjoy captaining a boat.
Advantages: Proven (some might say "ancient") technology! Most crash-worthy. Relatively comfortable. Relatively quiet. Low insurance costs. Relatively low repair costs.
Disadvantages: Relatively high gasoline consumption. High theft rate. Difficult to park.
The difference in gasoline costs between the Town Car and the Avalon would run me about $400/year.
But the car would be much less expensive.
First purchase would be an aftermarket anti-theft system. Installed.
Then again - I probably wouldn't get it much over 200,000 miles.
Hmmm . . .
Anybody have any experience - good or bad - with the Lincoln Town Car?
Thank you,
Epaminondas
Post by: sandbox on October 20, 2003, 01:51:20 AM
Since you were lOOking at a Japanese 4 door, I posted the Subaru 2.5 GT to add some excitement. Very popular in snow country with a better residual value in the long run. 4x4’s are fun, this one gets good mileage, and it’s rated high in crash tests, as well as smiled upon by JP Powers.
There are a few thing to consider when purchasing a car, one is if someone else is paying!
Then there’s tax incentives for lease options if or depreciation if your self employed. There’s a big tax incentive on SUV’s if you have a business. In the long run fuel will be the biggest concern, say 4 years down the road. Looking back to the early 70’s will give you a picture of how fast the value of large gas hogs will devalue when the price of poker is high! Fuel demands from the east will cause the prices to flow uphill, so the guy who gets use to driving a economy car now not only saves in fuel but also saves the speedy devaluation.
Mileage is a factor, if you drive a lot and your paying for the fuel, a smaller car makes sense. If your only driving a few thousand miles a year, then the fuel price isn’t noticed.
Buying expired lease cars from a dealer is the better value if your not a wrench. They keep only the best ones for themselves and the rest are wholesaled to car farms. You could also consider the managers demonstrator model, often times you can buy them 10-15% less. The prices a negotiable because the factory has what’s call a Hold Back on demos and leftover model that use to be 5%. That could be a total savings of 20% on a new car with 7,000 miles on it. The mileage a dealer can put on a demo varies from maker to model. You can check on the internet to see if the car has ever had an insurance claim for damage, by posting the V.I.N.# That way you don’t buy a damaged car or a Floater, (one that seen to much water) there are a lot of them this year.
Post by: Gary S on October 20, 2003, 10:10:56 AM
The last car I bought was a Chevy cavalier, used. It was a drivers education car for the local HS. My brother in law owns the Chevy dealership in town and he can keep an eye out for deals at auction.