Author Topic: Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows  (Read 2595 times)

Offline gunug

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« on: April 10, 2007, 02:26:45 PM »
This is from InformIt.com:

http://www.informit.com/articles/printerfr...712742&rl=1

QUOTE
However, the fact that the BSD architecture sits on top of the Mach kernel presents a weakness because it’s possible to use Mach-specific kernel services to circumvent BSD security features by passing system calls and instructions into the kernel itself. This could allow a malicious user with knowledge of the Mach kernel to carry out a number of normally restricted activities.

There are also a number of known vulnerabilities to the Mach kernel. As with most kernel vulnerabilities, they are primarily related to system calls. Some of them have been used in the past to develop rootkits capable of patching the kernel and allowing a malicious user to infiltrate a system without detection. Apple has prevented known rootkits from being used to compromise the current release of Mac OS X. However, there continue to be ways in which malicious users or code can infiltrate the kernel and, by extension, compromise the entire operating system.

I have heard Linux guys argue about the less than secure nature of the MACH kernal but I'm not qualified to know who is right!  

He also talks about the firewall and Bonjour being potential problems.  Someone who knows more than I should probably tear him a new one!  wink.gif
« Last Edit: April 10, 2007, 02:34:07 PM by gunug »
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Offline krissel

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2007, 07:56:44 PM »
QUOTE
SEATTLE (AP) - Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) released four security fixes it deems critical as part of its regularly scheduled software update Tuesday, while it corrected a handful of problems caused by last week's emergency patch.

Three of the updates marked with Microsoft's highest threat rating plug holes in the Windows operating system; the vulnerabilities could be used by hackers to install malicious code on personal computers. The fourth fixes a security flaw in Microsoft Content Management Server software, a business application.

Last Tuesday, Microsoft broke its normal once-monthly update schedule with an emergency fix for the way many versions of Windows, including the newly released Vista, handle animated cursor files. Microsoft and security experts had found that hackers were exploiting the hole and installing malicious software on personal computers.

That critical fix was also added to the April scheduled update.
  harhar.gif

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20070410/D8ODU17OB.html


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Offline sandyman

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2007, 04:30:13 AM »
My local security guru said something similar.  Basically, when Apple moved to a Unix style system they blew the chance to harden it by taking on some of the lessons learned by the *nix community and yes even Microsoft.

BTW, he's not an MS fanboy.  He only ever had a Windows PC for about 6 months and that was when he studied for an MCSE, a certification that he doesn't actually use very much smile.gif

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Offline Xairbusdriver

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2007, 11:32:00 AM »
QUOTE
when Apple moved to a Unix style system they blew the chance to harden it by taking on some of the lessons learned by the *nix community and yes even Microsoft.
Can you expand on this, to me, seemingly incongruous statement? Is your expert trying to say that Apple is using a more ancient version of Unix, one that has not had the decades of research and updates added to it? dntknw.gif

And I'm not even considering what M$ could have taught anyone about OS security! wallbash.gif
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Offline Jack W

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2007, 01:17:41 PM »
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Apr 11 2007, 09:32 AM) [snapback]124276[/snapback]
Can you expand on this, to me, seemingly incongruous statement? Is your expert trying to say that Apple is using a more ancient version of Unix, one that has not had the decades of research and updates added to it? dntknw.gif

And I'm not even considering what M$ could have taught anyone about OS security! wallbash.gif


Ou contrare ABD M$ has taught us all a lesson in INsecurity!

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Offline gunug

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2007, 02:23:36 PM »
QUOTE
Neither Mac OS X nor FreeBSD maintain the microkernel structure pioneered in Mach, although Mac OS X continues to offer microkernel IPC and control primitives for use directly by applications.

This is from the Wiki entry about the MACH Kernal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)

It seems to be saying that OS X doesn't use it exactly; but I thought I understood from my studies for OS X certification that they did use it.  Don't know!  Sorry I stirred it.  Oh, what Sandyman's expert "might" have been talking about was the UNIX Microsoft licensed from AT&T a long time ago: XENIX!  

I wasn't out to make people unhappy by bringing this up; but rather I wanted people to not be complacent about security.  The number of "professional" (read criminal) hackers out there working full-time to break into things is increasing.
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Offline sandyman

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2007, 03:11:31 PM »
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Apr 11 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]124276[/snapback]
Can you expand on this, to me, seemingly incongruous statement? Is your expert trying to say that Apple is using a more ancient version of Unix, one that has not had the decades of research and updates added to it? dntknw.gif

And I'm not even considering what M$ could have taught anyone about OS security! wallbash.gif

What he was saying is that some of the security procedures used by *nix were not implemented by Apple as they were more interested in other aspects of OS design. I'm meeting up with him and another security bod for a couple of beers next week so I'll ask again.

Re MS.  Yes they have had a bad reputation but by all all accounts Vista is much more secure.  They got badly bitten and have put measures in place to combat their problems.

To take two examples

MS SQL Server has had far fewer security vulnerabilities than Oracle over the past year or so
MS IIS has had almost no recent vulnerabilities.

If you want to check out further have a look at NGSS. founded by David Litchfield

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Offline Xairbusdriver

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2007, 03:11:57 PM »
QUOTE
...I wanted people to not be complacent about security.
A noble and difficult task, especially in the Mac world, I fear. sad.gif
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Offline tacit

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2007, 01:23:25 PM »
It's always difficult to get into simple "which operating system is more secure?" matches without really understanding computer and operating system architecture because not all OS-level security vulnerabilities are created equal.

If you count the number of security vulnerabilities in Mac OS X over the past twelve months and the number of security vulnerabilities in Windows over the past twelve months, the numbers are pretty similar. But Windows is completely overrun with viruses, and the Mac has none. Why? Many people, especially people who do not understand computer security, believe that if both operating systems have the same number of security flaws, then it makes sense that they should both be about as vulnerable to viruses, so the fact that there are more Windows viruses than Mac viruses must be because there are more Windows computers than Mac computers.

But not all security vulnerabilities are created equal. In order to be useful for spreading viruses or worms, a particular security flaw must have several very special characteristics. It must, for example, be remotely exploitable, which means it can be triggered by someone who is not sitting in front of the computer--for example, by sending a special code to a Web browser, or by causing a special string to be sent to a particular TCP/IP port. It must allow arbitrary code execution, meaning that the attacker must be able to use the security flaw to run any code he wants it to--a security flaw that simply causes a Web browser to crash, for example, but does not allow the attacker to run code on the affected computer, is not useful for spreading viruses or worms. And finally (and most importantly from a standpoint of attacking Mac OS X), the code that the attacker runs must run with elevated privileges, and be free to affect system files or other files on the computer.

If you look at a list of security vulnerabilities on the Mac and on Windows, you quickly see that a good many Windows vulnerabilities are remotely exploitable, whereas fewer Mac OS X vulnerabilities are. The vast majority of Mac OS X security exploits require the attacker to be able to physically sit down in front of the computer and use its keyboard. Security vulnerabilities that can only be exploited by a local user are still a big concern, especially for businesses where many computers might be used by many people, but they are not useful to people who want to spread worms or viruses.

There are a handful of Mac security vulnerabilities that are remotely exploitable, but most of these are "denial of service" attacks, meaning they can cause the computer to crash, but they can't be used by the attacker to run code on the computer. And of those attacks which are potentially remotely exploitable and allow arbitrary code execution, there is one fundamental difference between Windows and OS X that has so far stopped every OS X virus in its tracks: the operating system requires the user to type an Administrator password before a program can be run with elevated privileges.

To date, not one single security flaw has been found in OS X which is remotely exploitable, allows arbitrary code execution, AND allows a program to change system files without the user typing in the Administrator password.

However, there are many such Windows vulnerabilities, in part because Windows does not enforce the same kind of division between "user" and "administrator" that Mac OS X does. That is the great Achille's heel of Windows. many Windows programs and processes, even if they are run from a limited user account, run with full administrator privileges at all times. Bizarrely, and catastrophically from a security standpoint. Internet Explorer is one of these. Internet Explorer is a program that always has full access to all parts of the system at all times, even if the user is running from a limited account. That means any security flaw in Internet Explorer can be used by a hacker to take over complete control of the system, without the Windows user needing to type in an administrator password. This is why Internet Explorer can be used for "drive by downloads" (which infect a computer whenever the user visits a certain Web site). This is also why a Windows user can become infected by reading a specially rigged email, even without downloading the attachment--because in Windows, when you read an HTML email, the Internet Explorer libraries are used to interpret the email, and the Internet Explorer libraries run with full system access.

Vista makes things better--but not by much. Microsoft claims that in Vista, Explorer does not have full system privileges any more. That is only partly true. What actually happens is that a supervisor program sits on top of Explorer and decides what level of system access Explorer should have. Unfortunately, there are vulnerabilities which allow a malicious user to trick the supervisor into thinking Explorer should have full system access when it should not...

Vista also has introduced a security option that creates a stronger division between "user" and "administrator" functions, like Mac OS X. However, many reviewers have said it is so badly designed that it is virtually non-functional, and that most Vista users turn it off. (I only know one Vista user, and she has turned it off.) So many normal, day-to-day operations of a normal, everyday computer program require access to what Vista considers "privileged" system resources that in practice, the password prompt comes up again and again and again and again--dozens of times a day, even when you're not installing software or modifying the system. For example, on my friend's computer, it comes up every time she starts Photoshop. So in practice, people tend either to stop reading the dialog and just always type the password because they get so used to seeing the prompt, or they shut it off completely. (There is a Mac TV commercial that makes fun of this, in fact.)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 06:32:44 PM by Xairbusdriver »
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Offline krissel

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2007, 02:50:45 AM »
Thanks, tacit.  Clears things up quite a bit.  smile.gif


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Offline gunug

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2007, 04:09:20 AM »
I don't want to stir things up too much but Symantec (who couldn't write an OS X app to save their lives) has issued a report that says Windows is more secure becasue it fixes things faster:

http://www.internetnews.com/security/article.php/3667201

QUOTE
The report found that Microsoft (Quote) Windows had the fewest number of patches and the shortest average patch development time of the five operating systems it monitored in the last six months of 2006.

During this period, 39 vulnerabilities, 12 of which were ranked high priority or severe, were found in Microsoft Windows and the company took an average of 21 days to fix them. It's an increase of the 22 vulnerabilities and 13-day turnaround time for the first half of 2006 but still bested the competition handily.

Red Hat Linux was the next-best performer, requiring an average of 58 days to address a total of 208 vulnerabilities. However, this was a significant increase in both problems and fix time over the first half of 2006, when there were 42 vulnerabilities in Red Hat and the average turnaround was 13 days.

The one bright spot in all of this is that of the 208 Red Hat vulnerabilities, the most of the top five operating systems, only two were considered high severity, 130 were medium severity, and 76 were considered low.

Then there's Mac OS X. Despite the latest TV ads ridiculing the security in Vista with a Matrix-like Agent playing the UAC in Vista, Apple (Quote) has nothing to brag about. Symantec found 43 vulnerabilities in Mac OS X and a 66 day turnaround on fixes. Fortunately, only one was high priority.


Microsoft has 12 high priority security problems and OS X only has one that was!  dntknw.gif
« Last Edit: April 15, 2007, 01:42:23 AM by gunug »
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Offline Xairbusdriver

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2007, 06:26:18 PM »
You can't sell your stock at inflated prices if you can't show your company actually produces profits. I suspect Symantec will always make money as long as MS writes operating systems ( or tries to keep them patched ). This 'report' is like saying that Airline A got 12 important missing bags to their owners. While Airline B took longer to get its missing baggage tags delivered, even though no bags were ever lost. The obvious 'better' airline is the one who loses bags but gets them returned quicker! wallbash.gif

Further proof that figures say exactly what their supplier wants them to! laugh.gif
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Offline krissel

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Discussion of whether OS X is more secure than Windows
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2007, 12:56:59 AM »
As Jim implies, if they can't somehow convince Mac users that they need a virus program they might as well give up offering one.

Let's see, would you rather drive a car that has 12 potential flaws that can kill you but the manufacture recalls them 3 weeks after each is discoverd, or a vehicle that has only 1 possible major flaw and it takes a couple weeks longer to address it?

This is the key quote from the article:
QUOTE
Anuj Nayar, manager of Apple's Mac OS X and developer relations, would only say "Apple takes security very seriously and has a great track record of addressing vulnerabilities before they affect you."


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