Author Topic: 5G vs. airlines  (Read 1082 times)

Offline jchuzi

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5G vs. airlines
« on: January 18, 2022, 12:19:50 PM »
I have zero expertise with this issue, but perhaps someone has the necessary experience to express an opinion:  5G expansion will cause 'catastrophic' economic crisis, airlines claim Jim?
Jon

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Offline Xairbusdriver

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Re: 5G vs. airlines
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2022, 02:24:57 PM »
I'm not sure what "catastrophic" means anymore! At least in Politics.

As for "5G and aircraft", I think there is way too little research and information. And, since the FCC sees selling radio frequencies as a way of cutting the National Debt, it is of little use in protecting anyone. Meanwhile, the FAA has been quietly trying to mend it's recent lapses of trust and has few resources to pay for the studies needed.

Supporters of "5G" claim that it is being used "all over the world" with little impact (an ironic term to use, in my humble opinion!). My question would be; what are those countries and how many of the airports have Cat III approaches. Just as importantly, how many of the airlines operating in those countries have aircraft or crews certified to use Cat III equipment?

"Cat III" equipment allows certified aircraft and crews to fly almost all the way down to landing on the runway. Some equipment can actually land the aircraft, regardless of the visibility, without the pilots ever seeing the runway. I can only assume that these types of approaches and landings are what is included in the "very little impact" 'collection'.

But the actual equipment that can be affected by the frequency duplication/interference is used on almost all landings in commercial service. The affected equipment is called a "radio (and sometime incorrectly, 'radar') altimeter". In most modern commercial (cargo and passenger) aircraft, the crews get verbal cues on every landing as to their actual distance above the (hopefully) runway. Those verbal cues are announced every ten feet: "30", "20", "10". Sometimes there can also be "50" and "40" callouts.
An aside: There is no "Contact" or "We're on the ground" calls,
most pilots just listen for screams or applause from the back for that
confirmation. :rofl: I hardly ever carried passengers, so I would often
ask the tower if we were on the ground. A secondary confirmation was
when the Spoilers activated, that required weight on the wheels.

                                           But I digress...
The potential problem is that when/if the 5G equipment affects these altimeters, a landing may not be conducted safely. Fifty feet above a runway is not a good place to start thinking (or even worse, talking) about what is happening! Many aircraft even have minor system warnings inhibited in these situations to avoid distractions to the crew during this most critical part of a flight. :yes:

If any of you have owned any kind of aircraft, you will already know that anything labeled for use in one is always at least double the same part that might be used in a car! Multi-million dollar airliner parts are even more expensive. Most large commercial aircraft have multiple installations of the same item; 2 or 3 engines-check, 2 pilots-check, 3 to 10 fuel tanks with duel pumps-check, etc. Radio Altimeters are the same there will always be 2 and often 3 installed. Who will pay for designing, testing and replacing these? And, how long will all that take? That's why most pilots laughed when one of the telecoms said they would delay their rollout for two weeks. :doh: :whoosh:

I am just praying that we won't have to wait for safety changes to come in the historical way — the tragic crash of an aircraft. And yet commercial flying is still the safest way to get from any point in the US/Canada/Europe to any other place in those countries. Your trip to the airport will be much more dangerous!!

Write your Congressman and Senator and hope they can read and understand facts! :complain: I frankly fear there are fewer and fewer of those around, however. :coolio:
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system
CAUTION! Childhood vaccinations cause adults! :yes:

Offline Xairbusdriver

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Re: 5G vs. airlines
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2022, 05:20:59 PM »
The original 2 week delay was to go into effect tomorrow.

Perhaps you read or heard something about this again, just this morning? Being now retired, I don't keep up on NOTAMS (basically quickly posted announcements affecting airports, navigation and aircraft controlling centers). Pilots and companies will be checking these notices before and during every flight. There was a NOTAM that was to go into effect at 5pm Universal time today that would have basically shut down about 80 airports in the US IF the weather deteriorated below ½ mile visibility. (Visibility below ½ mile requires a Cat II or III approach.) That is not a rare event. You should also be aware that all commercial flights must also file (notify the FAA) and carry fuel to reach, an airport that they can land at in addition to their normal destination. If the weather is forecast or nearly below the required weather minimums for your destination, you may now lose all those 50 to 80 airports!

An earlier NOTAM listed 50 airports that would be affected. In a couple of weeks, we were up to 80. This 777 First Officer (Juan Brown) has a great YouTube channel normally discussing all kinds of aircraft accidents/incidents. He posted another vid today that shows some one in the telecom industry may be having second thoughts about the consequences of their actions without more (possible) discussions/investigations?

Additionally, the  Aviation International News site has an interesting graphic showing the differences in how this problem is being met by France as opposed to the US.
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system
CAUTION! Childhood vaccinations cause adults! :yes:

Offline jchuzi

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Re: 5G vs. airlines
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2022, 06:58:02 AM »
Jon

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Offline Highmac

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Re: 5G vs. airlines
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2022, 06:18:42 AM »
Thank you Jim, a good read  :thumbup:

Jon - you might find this BBC report helpful since it caters for dumbos like me  :toothgrin:

Some airlines, including BA, cancelled some flights to the US yesterday (Wed), others switched to different aircraft types.

(Even an infrequent flier like me would think it was quite a logistical nightmare!)
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 09:32:51 AM by Highmac »
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Offline Xairbusdriver

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Re: 5G vs. airlines
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2022, 05:18:14 PM »
Another video from Mr. Brown: Still a bit technical but brings into focus why telecoms 'argument' of "it works in the world" is less than candid. As shown in the Aviation International News link (See the chart below), the "standards" in the US and "the rest of the world" are not the same. There is also an explanation as to costs and time involved in developing parts for any aircraft.

The change to the "M" in "NOTAM" is news to me. The "[A]M" used to stand for "airmen". :coolio: I assumed that was of the same sense that "...all men are created equal...". Are we now required to have two versions of the U.S. Constitution?! The change to "missions" is absurd, not to mention irrelevant, useless and stupid (not to put too fine a point on it)! :doh:
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system
CAUTION! Childhood vaccinations cause adults! :yes: