Author Topic: CRT vs. Flat Panel  (Read 4346 times)

Offline jb

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« on: February 04, 2003, 07:57:00 PM »
Generally, CRT's have a pretty long life. Do Flat Panels have the same life?

CRT's are free of screen defects during their life span. Besides one or two  missing pixels sometimes when brand new , do more Flat Panels pixel failures occur during their lifetime?

CRT's brightness and contrast decrease over a long period of time. Do Flat Panels brightness and contrast also decrease over time?

Are there specific comparative articles showing the pros and cons of CRT's And Flat Panels?

jb
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Offline krissel

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2003, 09:14:00 PM »
If you are trying to decide which to get there are a lot of other details as well, including to what video card you will connect the monitor.
This 4 page article covers a lot of the basic differences and things to consider.

 CRT/LCD


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Offline krissel

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2003, 09:18:00 PM »
Here are a few more things to read.

 CRT vs LCD

a discussion in a sci-fi forum (note the reference to parents     )

 LCD discussion

ergonomics

LCD ergo


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Offline Epaminondas

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2003, 11:32:00 PM »
jb,

I recently faced the question of CRT vs. LCD vs. money vs. weight and size vs. longevity vs. dead pixels vs. uneven backlighting vs. native resolution - etc., etc., etc.

I followed various reviews and shoot-outs and bulletin board discussions - and looked at a lot of monitors - and talked to friends - and salesmen (the poorest source of information of all, oddly enough) for some time before making a decision.

In my case, I use a monitor largely for print and I do not use it for gaming, watching DVD's, or for colour-critical work - so an LCD would have been a most appropriate choice.

Print is where LCDs excell.

Balancing everything I read over a period of time, however, I chose the 19" Samsung  Synchmaster 957MB CRT monitor.

My choice was based on going with the best of a mature technology over choosing an exciting but immature technology.

Of course, the decision could easily have gone the other way.

Things that influenced me:

One thing that I was seeing that struck me - no one was complaining about CRTs on the various boards I frequented.  But I read lotsa complaints - dead pixels and such - some complaints quite bitter - often unresolved by the reseller or manufacturer - about LCDs.

While others were pleased as punch.

Another common complaint in regard to some LCDs is of the small print at native resolutions - I suspect that it may be wise to get the largest LCD that supports a particular resolution (i.,e., buy the 18" LCD, not the 17", if they both support the same resolution - that sort of thing).

The people who are really big on largest possible resolution (smallest print) seem to be the gamers.

Also - digital input apparently beats out analogue considerably, though more so with some LCDs than with others.  But digital costs more, both for the LCD and the digital-capable video card. Does your computer support digital output, or would you have to upgrade?  Or would you compromise?

Note also that if you are interested in running a KVM switch, that digital KVM switches are a lot more expensive than analogue switches.

Back to the CRT:

Samsung had probably taken Shadow Mask technology farther than anyone else. I went with the Synchmaster 957MB. The best Samsung Shadow Mask monitors have a horizontal dot pitch of .20 (diagonal .24) vs. a horizontal dot pitch of .22 (diagonal .25) of much of the competition.  Makes a significant differentce in print clarity. If you want print on a CRT, this is probably one of the best ways to go. If you are a serious graphics person or gamer or a DVD person, the conventional wisdom is that you should go Aperture Grille, instead.

If you do go with a CRT, I suggest you go with one labeled TCO-99 - not TCO-95, TCO-92 or (yech!) MPR-II.  TCO-99 is the  most stringent of these standards as far as radiation output and energy consumption are concerned.  The cheapest CRTs will not be TCO-99 certified - that is one reason that they are the cheapest.

Oh - LCD technology is moving ahead by leaps and bounds and LCDs continue to come down in price - and will continue to do so.  I do plan to buy an LCD in a few years.  The time, for me, is just not quite yet.

Happy decision-making,

Epaminondas

Samsung LCD review

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LCD shootout X 6
 
 [ 02-05-2003, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

Offline jb

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2003, 03:20:00 AM »
Thank you krissel and Epaminondas.

Your quoted articles were most interesting to read. However none made reference to dead/stuck pixels over the life of the the LCD type of screen.

- krissel. I'm about due (well, within the next 6-12 months or so) to retire my old upgraded and faithfull 4400. One day I'm thinking of an iMac with 17" LCD, one night with an eMac with 17" CRT, one afternoon with an open ended desktop Power Mac with CRT or LCD, one morning with wishes for the latest 17" Power Book. I have my 4400 since September 97, and it has and still serves me well, indeed very well, as I don't play any games and don't intend to. However I can't upgraded it with OS X and its future updates/upgrades. It's maxed out to 9.1.  And it's currently worth only 100$ or so. Anyway I would keep it as a backup for my outdated apps.

- Epaminondas. I have the Samsung SyncMaster 17" Flat Monitor. I have yet to see a better monitor in its category. Back in 95, when I was working, I was given a 17" Sony Trinitron. After a week, I had asked my employer's IT to give me back my old 14" as I could not live with those horizontal 'shadow' lines at 1/5 and 4/5 of the screen. I understand that the latest Sony monitors still suffer from the same thing. As I get older, I'm now 72, I find myself to be more and more conservative. Since 52, I've 'conserved' my cars an average or 7 years.Still I appreciate the latest technology if it's affordable for my means. May be I should do like you did. Get myself a new Mac, keep my Samsung CRT, and wait for a lower  cost 'reliable' LCD or plasma or whatever affordable else.
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Offline WDL

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2003, 05:23:00 AM »
jb:

Epaminondas touched on the key - the CRTs have a 65 year history behind them. No one knows today how the other screen technologies will stand up. Thirty years from now, when we're both 102, let's discuss this again - because by that time they will know how the other technologies stand up.

WDL

Offline Paddy

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2003, 11:57:00 PM »
Much as I love my TiBook, if I have to do a lot of reading, I much prefer my 22" LaCie Electron Blue CRT. Gorgeous CRT monitor - it won't be going anywhere anytime soon - any upgrades on the CPU side will be towers. LCD's still have a fair ways to go, IMHO.

Keep the Samsung, get a tower. Much more flexible, a breeze to add things to - which can't be said of an iMac or a Powerbook.  

Who knows what will come down the pike in the next year or two - and you might want to add a PCI card or two.
"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into committees. That'll do them in." ~Author unknown •iMac 5K, 27" 3.6Ghz i9 (2019) • 16" M1 MBP(2021) • 9.7" iPad Pro • iPhone 13

Offline pendragon

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2003, 01:27:00 PM »
For those considering an LCD, and you wish to test for dead pixels before purchase… Just run Pixel Tester v1.3. It’s for OS X and is 1.6 MB. There is a new/updated version, but the v1.3 was freeware. It runs from the desktop, CD, or Zip and there is no installation. And so easy to use, even Bernie can do it.          

If you are interested in the 1.3 version and would like me to send a copy to you, well, how can I refuse a TSer?

P.S. I just tried out piXel Check v1.2 (freeware, 624 KB) and, IMNHO, it is even better than Pixel Tester v1.3 See http://www.versiontracker.com/moreinfo.fcg...id=11661&db=mac

Harv
 
 [ 02-05-2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: pendragon ]
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~ Voltaire

Offline Epaminondas

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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2003, 11:18:00 PM »
<< I have the Samsung SyncMaster 17" Flat Monitor.  I have yet to see a better monitor in its category. >>

I, also - a Samsung 17" SyncMaster 700IFT CRT, sitting right next to my 19" SyncMaster 957MB. Both are excellent for print - similar specs, oddly enough.  I bought the 17" several years ago after quite a bit of research.  Did more research this time, with an open mind, looking for a 19" - I was surprised at coming up with the earlier monitor's big brother.  One thing I found of interest is how little change there has been in the technology in the ensuing several years. No more leaps and bounds in CRT technology. Price is lower, but technology has not advanced significantly.  

Mature technology.

<< Back in 95, when I was working, I was given a 17" Sony Trinitron. After a week, I had asked my employer's IT to give me back my old 14" as I could not live with those horizontal 'shadow' lines at 1/5 and 4/5 of the screen. I understand that the latest Sony monitors still suffer from the same thing. >>

I have read that these lines are now less obtrusive than they used to be.

I have never owned an Aperture Grillle CRT: I had to look for the lines at the store while shopping - probably wouldn't have noticed the lines if I hadn't read about them.  Then  again - I did not look at the monitor for hours on end . . .

<< Since 52, I've 'conserved' my cars an average or 7 years. >>

Why such a throw-away mentality?  ;-)

I am driving a 1979 Delta Olds 88.

The car has - personality.  

Really.  

It's not just me.

When I let other people drive it, they get out laughing and tend to pat the car on the roof.  Especially Eastern (well, Central) Europeans. The latter find it kinda - kinda big.

People like my car.

Question.  

You have been at this car thing a little longer than I have.

What can you tell us about older and newer cars in regard to personality?

<< Still I appreciate the latest technology if it's affordable for my means. May be I should do like you did. Get myself a new Mac, keep my Samsung CRT, and wait for a lower cost 'reliable' LCD or plasma or whatever affordable else. >>

Makes sense to me.  But I just presented this as one mode of thought - expecting other reasonable people to disagree.

I admit - I am surprised at the absense of dissenting voices.

<< Your quoted articles were most interesting to read. However none made reference to dead/stuck pixels over the life of the the LCD type of screen. >>

OK - you asked for it.

No mercy . . .

What I was trying to do with those articles was to demonstrate the rapid change in LCD technology which is occurring even as we speak.

The thought being that it may be difficult to predict the durability of something which has only just been invented.

My error was in not making my thoughts in this matter clear.

My apologies.

As to your concerns about LCD longevity - I have not seen anything official.  And I have been keeping my eyes out for that kind of information.

As far as I know, that information is just not out there.

I can offer what I have gathered in regard to the dead pixel issue - not from personal experience or official industry materials, but from reading of others' travails.  I will give you my read on the matter - but I do not offer this as objective truth.  Just one man's second-hand impression:

(1)  Magazine reviews have generally not mentioned the dead pixel issue at all. It seems to be a dirty little secret.  I guess the magazines have to keep their advertisers happy.

I never even knew about the dead pixel issue until seeing it raised on various internet bulletin boards.  Usually in the context of vehement outrage . . .

(2)  Perhaps 95% of WWW bulletin board complaints about dead pixels that I have seen have been in reference to new LCDs. The standard sceanario - guy buys his dream LCD via email, unwraps it, feels great about his new expensive toy - then is vastly disappointed to find several dead pixels  staring back at him in the middle of his screen.  So he calls the vendor to send it back, thinking he is facing a temporary inconvenience, only to find that the vendor/manufacturer defines fewer than ten pixels as "not defective" - and he can't send it back and he can't get his money back. By now, he hates his new toy.  Feeling violated, he lets the world know!  Others pipe in with sympathy and similar stories.  

An unhappy time is had by all.

Seems to me that a quick call to the credit card company would clear the matter up in short order.  Defective is defective - a manufacturer trying to redefine the English language is unlikely to get far if pressed.  I have never had any problem with such foolishness.  If a company is reluctant to accept a return - or will not answer its technical support line or RMA line in a reasonable amount of time - I just call the credit card company, and they handle it.  No problem.

The obvious solution to this matter is to only buy an LCD at a local store and to carefully and thoroughly examine the LCD before purchase. Buy with a credit card.  And to have a clear concept of return policies before purchase.

(3)  Perhaps five percent of the complaints I have seen involve an LCD where a dead pixel has developed over time.

Some advice then comes up advising the person to "massage" out the dead pixel.  Some people report success with this technique.  

(4)  Some manufacturers consider ten or fewer dead pixels to be "within spec."  Others consider two or less (but these LCDs do cost more).  Probably worthwhile to check this out before buying.

(5) A major concern in regard to longevity is the LCD backlight losing brightness over time.  I have seen one estimate of LCDs losing as much as 40% of their brightness over three years. And there are concerns as to whether or not the backlights can be replaced, or if they can be replaced in a way that makes economic sense.

Warranties then become very important.  A three year warranty makes a lot more sense than a one year warranty.  Some LCDs are warranted for three years - except the back light is only warranted for one year.  Buyer beware.

Some charge cards will add a year to a warranty.  Check it out and jump through the hoops before buying.

These discussions tend to mention that CRTs also fade over time, but apparently significantly less than LCDs.  I.e., a CRT tends to last over many years through several computer upgrades.  There is considerable concern over whether or not LCDs will have comparable longevity.

Discussions futher emphasize using energy saving modes / screen savers set to "blank screen only" to save brightness of the LCD / CRT over time.

Others pipe in that this is a good reason to buy an LCD with maximum brightness to start with - so it will hold up better over time - i.e., more reserve as it fades.

Whether or not it works out that way in reality, I do not know.

Notebooks may have less of a problem with this issue as notebooks have energy management features standard that may conserve LCD life - energy management features that a desktop user may not ordinarily use.

______________________________________________

Sorry I cannot give you a yes-or-know answer.

These are just things I have gleaned from numerous Internet bulletin board discussions and articles and such over time.  What is true and what is false, I cannot say for certain.

JB.

Good luck on your decision,

Epaminondas

______________________________________________

Oh, to be seventy again!

[Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., at 90, upon seeing a beautiful woman]
 
 [ 02-06-2003, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

Offline jb

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CRT vs. Flat Panel
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2003, 12:41:00 AM »
Again thanks all.

Epaminondas. I'm curious... Is there a particular meaning or etymological sense to your user name? Are you really 90? The fully comprehensive content of your posts with their literary rendition and command of the verbs would make one think that with such verve and vigor, you would have been a much younger person. I truly enjoyed reading you, and looking forward to read you again.

As for my cars. Actually I have had 8 cars, which lowers my average from 7.28 to 6.37 years. I guess I had a worst throw-away mentality than I thought!

1- My first car was a 2 door 52 Ford  Custom, V8, 86,000 miles.
2- 2 door 55 Chevrolet 150, IL6, 104,000 miles.
3- 2 door 60 Chevrolet Chevelle, IL6,  91,000 miles.
4- 2 door 65 Chevrolet Bel Air, V8, 96,000 miles.
5- 4 door 69 Chevrolet Biscayne SS396, V8, 110,000 miles.
6- 2 door 74 Pontiac Astre, 4, 93,000 miles.
7- 2 door 81 Oldsmobile Cutlass, V8, 134,000 km
8- 2 door 92 Oldsmobile Achieva, V6, 120,000 km so far, and still going strong.

Thanks again Oliver.

jb
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Offline Epaminondas

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« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2003, 09:59:00 AM »
See "Epaminondas and His Auntie" by Sara Cone Bryant.  The hardback version is preferable - the paperback version is but a shadow.  Avoid Bowdlerized versions - they are for weak minds. Be skeptical of reviews: judge for yourself.

Not 90.  Three grandparents did make it well into their 90's, however, and I hope one day to do same.  Knock on wood.

Oh - did any of those cars have a personality?  Or were they merely machines for getting from there and back again?

A '55 Chevy - neat!

See you in the electronic ether,

Epaminondas

____________________________________

XLIX
 
 
Think no more, lad; laugh, be jolly:
  Why should men make haste to die?
Empty heads and tongues a-talking
Make the rough road easy walking,
And the feather pate of folly        
  Bears the falling sky.
 
Oh, ’tis jesting, dancing, drinking
  Spins the heavy world around.
If young hearts were not so clever,
Oh, they would be young for ever:
Think no more; ’tis only thinking
  Lays lads underground.

Housman

____________________________________
 
 [ 02-06-2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]