Author Topic: iPod City  (Read 7426 times)

Offline Paddy

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« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2006, 09:46:02 AM »
QUOTE
While there is a long and honorable tradition of U.S. journalists with definite points of view who hoped that their reporting would have a political impact--from Thomas Paine to Ida Tarbell to I.F. Stone--what distinguishes Stossel is his willingness to warp reality to fit his ideological preconceptions. His reports, notable for their one-sided sourcing and rejection of inconvenient facts, are frequently marred assertions from Stossel and his favored guests that are misleading or factually incorrect.


http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1133

Stossel is NOT an accurate authority on anything...

As for education advocates having an agenda - last time I checked, the agenda had something to do with educating our children; not making a political point or a big profit. Please note, I'm not saying that teacher's unions are always acting in the best interests of our kids, but that is NOT their purpose anymore than it is the purpose of the automotive unions to act in the best interests of GM. But for some reason or other, we seem to demand the impossible of our teachers - we pay them badly (for the education level most have obtained), demand more and more of them as parents abdicate their responsibilities, insist that they waste vast amounts of time testing our children rather than teaching them, and then see fit to abuse them whenever Johnny gets a C - or heaven forbid, they ask for a 3% raise. I could go on and on, but I won't because I'm way off topic here. But as a parent, sister of a teacher, and extremely active school advocate in a town that has been invaded by some who would quite happily destroy the public school system out of sheer selfishness and greed (which is all Libertarianism is about, if you ask me) I couldn't ignore this.

As for Apple and iPods - well, look around people. How many things do you already own manufactured in the third world under similar working conditions? Are you willing to forgo each and every one of those items? Will it help the workers in China if you do? Not likely - at best, the companies will simply move elsewhere, leaving those workers out of work. Presumably they chose to work in the factories, finding it preferable to eking out an existence in farming or some other low-paying pursuit. Look at our own history. Anything sound familiar here? Look at Japan. It used to be the go-to place for cheap manufacturing. It used to be that "made in Japan" wasn't a great recommendation. Now - different story altogether. I'm not saying that any of it is particularly good - especially as I sincerely believe that our relentless demand for growth is eventually going to doom us all - but it is the structure of our entire global economy we're complaining about here; Apple is just one tiny part of it.
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Offline RHPConsult

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« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2006, 02:02:08 PM »
At the risk of igniting further distress among TeeEssers I genuinely treasure as good friends (Forgivers all!), I would like to point out that I suggested Strossel offers some interesting perspectives on arguable issues of public policy and weal . . . plus an interesting bibliography.

Your mileage may vary.

Throughout vast expanses of the "developing" world a "sweatshop" is quite superior to other venues of human employment. When Henry Ford brought the repetitive assembly line to auto manufacturing, he also generated many complaints regarding grinding toil . . . until he also introduced the $5 a day wage in a $2 environment. (See Econ 101)

One further musing: Libertarianism ≠ Anarch-ism

Offline sandbox

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« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2006, 02:58:03 PM »
OPS>>>>> this post was started an hour earlier but put aside to answer the doorbell. It is out of sequence with the post by RHP.

Paddy I'm not diminishing the value of educators, I was just expanding on kris's point,
QUOTE
media has some sort of agenda as do those in business and politics
. An educator like any other field of endeavor wants more....... more for their students, more for their schools, more for their school district, city, county, state...... their teachers union and yes themselves. Is there not an agenda in there somewhere to define?

Mind you, I do not approach this issue disconnected, I have educators sprinkled though out my extended family, family, with two grown children teaching at college level. I do somewhat comprehend how the two income family has burdened the school system, along with segregated social pacification projects that left all the children behind.

What's wrong with education? Well in a business model it hasn't been innovative enough to keep up with the social changes. Of course teachers will become Baby Sitters when survival requires two incomes. Of course teachers will become disciplinarians when the disenfranchised are integrated into an antiquated system, and of course teachers will be under paid when these additional tasks are added to their schedules. Why did teachers allow the system to get ahead of them? I suspect because they are part of the same two income trap. because they were not willing to sacrifice it all for the principles they held. If every teacher walked out tomorrow the system would be trapped, forcing it to face it's short comings. The game is hardball, and only the system is willing to play.

QUOTE
Stossel is NOT an accurate authority on anything...


So you say as a
QUOTE
parent, sister of a teacher, and extremely active school advocate
but RHP who comes to this argument from another field of study seems to find value in what he has to say, specifically I don't know what that would be, but, RHP's agenda seems to advocate it. In general I suspect he thinks that all battles are won in the will, (SunTzu) and if one applies oneself mountains will move. Stossel's book may be an advocate of this approach to living.

I'm wondering, like so many others will, if Apple has renounced their social principles in contracting China to assemble their products. I'm also bewildered by a nation who can invent such products but can't afford to buy them when they're manufactured at home.  coolio.gif
« Last Edit: June 18, 2006, 03:05:36 PM by sandbox »

Offline Paddy

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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2006, 10:22:44 PM »
I dunno, SB, but expecting the teachers to fix a system that is an part of a much larger social infrastructure is probably expecting too much.

As for my reaction to Stossel, it may seem extreme to some who haven't been in the trenches for the past few years - but there is a war out there, a war on public education, and he's one of those lobbing hand grenades. I live in a town that in recent years has become infested with a nasty group who are anti-school/anti-tax and Stossel and his ilk are their heroes. Our schools have suffered year after year of budget cuts - if we don't pass a pay-as-you-throw trash fee on July 10, we may have to cut a further $1.5M from our school budget (currently $33M) and fire 10 to 15% of our teaching staff because we've already fired everyone else that we can. Kids will be in classes of up to 36 in grades 1-5 and in the high 30's throughout the middle and high schools. Many kids in the high school will have no electives at all, the middle school will have no foreign language or electives, and both the middle and the high school will have study halls that won't meet the state time-on-learning requirements.

I'm afraid that quoting/mentioning John Stossel to me at the moment is rather like waving a red flag at a bull.

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Offline Dreambird

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« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2006, 12:37:00 AM »
QUOTE
I'm also bewildered by a nation who can invent such products but can't afford to buy them when they're manufactured at home. coolio.gif


This is partly what has me wondering... just pondering...

1 (one) 60GB Video iPod... in China... what is the assembly cost of that unit?
What might it be if it were assembled in Mexico?
What might it be if it were assembled in a bare minimum wage setting in the US? Canada would be higher at minimum wage and quite impossible.

What I wonder is this... that 60GB iPod retails for  $399 US or $499 CAD... I doubt it costs that much to assemble, package and ship in any of the locations above... it just comes down to a question of how much of a profit does a corporation and it's stockholders expect and are they willing to cut just a little for better standards of living for the workers?

This could go for any product... not just iPods.

Just a thought... and we all know that mine are usually quite socialist by today's standards... wink.gif tomato.gif
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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2006, 02:38:55 AM »
Well Paddy it seems like you have a fight on your hands. If you have a good school then defend it. All public schools are not equal.

The public school system lost me 35 years ago when I was forced to move to a small town that had good public schools for my children. As the years went on that small town was unable to maintain it's quality education because of an influx of outsiders with different backgrounds pushed each classroom into spending more time in redundancy and discipline. Laws removed the authority from the teachers so that they were almost powerless in a classroom, teachers and administrators were reluctant to discipline children in fear of legal reprisals so the system slipped into chaos. Both my children and I attended classroom with 30+ students, that was not a problem for us or the schools we attended.  coolio.gif

What am I paying for?


Specifically, the study’s findings include the following:

    * Only 70% of all students in public high schools graduate, and only 32% of all students leave high school qualified to attend four-year colleges.
    * Only 51% of all black students and 52% of all Hispanic students graduate, and only 20% of all black students and 16% of all Hispanic students leave high school college-ready.
    * The graduation rate for white students was 72%; for Asian students, 79%; and for American Indian students, 54%. The college readiness rate for white students was 37%; for Asian students, 38%; for American Indian students, 14%.
    * Graduation rates in the Northeast (73%) and Midwest (77%) were higher than the overall national figure, while graduation rates in the South (65%) and West (69%) were lower than the national figure. The Northeast and the Midwest had the same college readiness rate as the nation overall (32%) while the South had a higher rate (38%) and the West had a lower rate (25%).
    * The state with the highest graduation rate in the nation was North Dakota (89%); the state with the lowest graduation rate in the nation was Florida (56%).
    * Due to their lower college readiness rates, black and Hispanic students are seriously underrepresented in the pool of minimally qualified college applicants. Only 9% of all college-ready graduates are black and another 9% are Hispanic, compared to a total population of 18-year-olds that is 14% black and 17% Hispanic.
    * We estimate that there were about 1,299,000 college-ready 18-year-olds in 2000, and the actual number of persons entering college for the first time in that year was about 1,341,000. This indicates that there is not a large population of college-ready graduates who are prevented from actually attending college.
    * The portion of all college freshmen that is black (11%) or Hispanic (7%) is very similar to their shares of the college-ready population (9% for both). This suggests that the main reason these groups are underrepresented in college admissions is that these students are not acquiring college-ready skills in the K-12 system, rather than inadequate financial aid or affirmative action policies.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ewp_03.htm
« Last Edit: June 19, 2006, 02:43:21 AM by sandbox »

Offline Gary S

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« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2006, 09:16:40 AM »
I wouldn't put any faith in research commissioned by ABC or any of the networks.

As for John Stossel. I respect his journalism about as much as I do Stone Philips............and the whole team over at Fox News!

Fox is something else. I sometimes wonder where they find thier people....
right wing conventions? mellow.gif

I don't believe the proaganda....I mean news anyways, these days. coolio.gif
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Offline kelly

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« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2006, 12:58:14 PM »
MacInTouch reader Ken Tidwell offered insights on the issue of iPod factory conditions:

http://www.macintouch.com/#tips.2006.06.19
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Offline LR827

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« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2006, 02:12:32 PM »
Interesting link, kelly.  Ken Tidwell is defending the Apple plant by comparing it to how much worse off the workers could be in other Chinese workplaces:

QUOTE
As for cramped quarters ... here, comfort is relative(!). Ask most workers, and they will tell you, yes, the dorms are packed, but not as bad as they could be(!). The salaries are relative as well. At least Foxconn makes good on its promise to pay(!). And the little they make compared to other countries is more than they made on the farm(!)...in most cases, more than the entire family made... Ages are supposed to range from 18 to 25, but you can always find them under 18 if you check their documents closely(!). Considering the options are either factories ... or brothels(!), these factories are doing their part to provide humane employment(!) (exclamation points added)


...So these workers should be happy that the dorms are packed, but could be packed even worse; they are paid for their work; they make less than the rest of the world, but more than farmers; they employ child labor; and at least it's not a brothel.  How can they be so ungrateful????
« Last Edit: June 19, 2006, 02:14:25 PM by LR827 »

Offline kelly

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« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2006, 02:22:53 PM »
I don't understand your points of emphasis Lorraine.  huh.gif

Brothels would be better?

Making more than entire families is bad?

Etc.

China is in big trouble. This is about a good as they're going to find.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2006, 02:23:26 PM by kelly »
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Offline kelly

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« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2006, 02:31:13 PM »
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Offline LR827

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« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2006, 02:44:16 PM »
QUOTE(kelly @ Jun 19 2006, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't understand your points of emphasis Lorraine.  huh.gif

Brothels would be better?

Making more than entire families is bad?

Etc.

China is in big trouble. This is about a good as they're going to find.



I agree with you, kelly.  I think the comparisons amounted to "damning with faint praise."  

He is praising Apple for "at least paying" the workers, and so forth.  

I think we need to stand back and recognize that the conditions are terrible, and beings slightly "less terrible" doesn't make them good. But that is no different from the way our immigrant labor is used right here, like I said a ways back there.  It's not Apple, it's not China, it's big business everywhere.

Offline kelly

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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2006, 02:51:29 PM »
I didn't read him that way at all Lorraine. smile.gif

Could just be me.

People should read that article though. smile.gif
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Offline Paddy

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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2006, 04:00:06 PM »
Interesting article, Kelly - especially this:

QUOTE
Apple takes pains to validate working conditions, from numbers of engineers, along with their ages and sex, to what type of fuel is used in the indoor forklifts. As far as the Foxconn facility, it is without a doubt one of the better domestic examples. I can only guess why this hit the headlines, since there are many other topics that do deserve attention, such as the increase of fat-laden Western fastfood being put on the market and the business tactics Microsoft uses to buy into China's future. Knowing the Chinese, I'm fairly sure they can see Microsoft for what it is, but the fast food chains are going to have waistlines here mimicking the US by the end of this generation.


Indeed, one does have to wonder why this hit the headlines - can't help but wonder if someone with an axe to grind had something to do with it?

As for the study you quote, Sandbox (another right-wing think tank, BTW - and I can cite lots of articles that disagree with both its thesis and Jay Greene) - this brings us to the single most important factor in determining how kids do in school.

It isn't how much money you pour into the schools (though there is a point where going backwards does make a difference - North Andover is there - that's another issue).

If you correct for every other factor, there are actually two things; the socioeconomic status of the student's family and to a lesser degree, the education level of the mother. In other words: poverty. Until the US does something to fix THAT, then you will see the sort of statistics you quote. While Mr. Greene and some of his friends may disagree, the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

From a listserv I belong to, a posting from Dr. Sharon Hill:

QUOTE
It is not the $$$ per se that make the difference.....it is the fact that higher SES (socio-economic stratum) families have more discretionary income to spend, and will spend it on vacations (that educate in many ways), books, progressive toys and technology, and activities that significantly increase social skills as well as academic (music and dance lessons, sports, etc.).

All of these things are expensive, and beyond the means of parents without $$$, many of whom are also too stressed out on their own to pay any attention to their children's needs - even if they knew what they were. Wealth also increases contact with influential others, which often help pave the way for children of the wealthy. America has definitely created its own aristocracy through the interface of wealth, big business and politics.

There are poor parents who value diverse experiences as well - they are the ones that read (and expect their children to read and have library cards), take advantage of free educational and social activities (4-H, scouts, church and other activities), and make certain that there's money (often earned by the child's personal efforts, like baby-sitting and working odd jobs) for a week of summer camp, a bus trip, or even a short airline trip just for the experience. I know this, because I grew up in poverty and have excelled in education and in life far beyond the limited expectations of my rural community - but not beyond the expectations of my mother! But she valued education, and was also in a place and time when it was possible to survive with the support of a community -communities that seldom exist any more. I am not unique.....in my tiny rural school of 33 kids from 1952-1958, 4 PhDs and 7 MAs became superintendents, university professors, teachers, counselors and Peace Corps volunteers - making a difference all over the world.

Unfortunately, urban poverty can be much more difficult and devastating; and
most poor parents have no training for parenthood any more than they have
training for skilled jobs. It is a vicious circle, and some of the limited research on resiliency in children tells us that the financial stresses lead to interpersonal and social breakdowns that must be overcome in specific ways if a child is to find his or her way out of the cycle. The complexities of it are overwhelming; and are powerfully influenced, for 'good' or 'bad,' by the child's own personal traits, interests, and capabilities. These are often damaged or destroyed early on in places of high stress, and emotional and physical violence.

Until we are willing and able to address more than the symptom - $$$$$ - we will find no solutions. And as long as we spend billions on wars and shopping for stuff, we're not putting our money where our mouth is.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2006, 04:46:11 PM by Paddy »
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Offline krissel

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« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2006, 08:24:42 PM »
Apple is doing an audit.



QUOTE(sandbox @ Jun 19 2006, 03:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All public schools are not equal....


Which is why Stossel's use of single examples to represent the whole is repugnant.

QUOTE(sandbox @ Jun 19 2006, 03:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Both my children and I attended classroom with 30+ students, that was not a problem for us or the schools we attended.  coolio.gif


Totally different time. I'll bet you used pencils and erasers, too.
The days of kids sitting in rows and listening to the teacher for fear of repercussions on the homefront are all but gone. Today's child is weaned on entertainment and instant gratification (mostly due to my own generation's coddling of them.) dry.gif

Today I went to the end of the year luncheon held by my former school to honor one of the faculty who was retiring. There were 6 other recent retirees there with whom I had worked and we all were commenting on how we didn't know how we managed to survive so long. Then we looked around at the newer faces and wished them luck. I spoke with one of my still teaching friends who has 34 years experience and he told me that as hard as it may be to believe, the kids listen even less than when I was there, a scant four years ago. And he doesn't teach math or science or other potentially boring subject... he's the phys ed teacher! Another went on about how she (a gifted and talented teacher who gets the cream of the crop and is a state-wide workshop leader) was not able to get kids to complete projects.

And the district in which I worked for 32 years has gone from a middle class, education minded and peaceful town to one which is on the "rim" of poverty, defeating school budgets and dangerous after dark.

QUOTE(sandbox @ Jun 19 2006, 03:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As the years went on that small town was unable to maintain it's quality education because of an influx of outsiders with different backgrounds pushed each classroom into spending more time in redundancy and discipline. Laws removed the authority from the teachers so that they were almost powerless in a classroom, teachers and administrators were reluctant to discipline children in fear of legal reprisals so the system slipped into chaos.


You asked earlier why teachers couldn't just take over or walk out?

You answered your own question.    wink.gif


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