OT: Good car for Wisconsin in the Winter?

[daryl66]

QUOTE(Epaminondas @ Jul 15 2006, 10:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Milady is looking at a job in Wisconsin and she will need wheels.

The area she is looking at apparently has unplowed packed snowy streets during a significant part of the winter.

All of the replies are valid. In north Idaho we have to deal with snow and ice quite a bit plus living on a big hill makes winter driving exciting, especially for "her" who was born and raised in South Alabama.  We have had a front wheel drive Mazda, a Toyota 4 runner and currently a Nisson xterra. All worked fine. Our neighbors even put on studded tires which are legal here.  The key is driving within your (HER)limits.  I have not seen anthing on the posts relating to price.  The high end Toyota's ( Land cruiser, 4 runner) are VERY expensive. Up to 50-60K on the high end. Nisson xterra can be had for 23-30K. Suburu falls inbetween. The AWD and 4WD would fall into personal preference. I personally like 4WD with a transfer case. Most female drives I know perfer the auto AWD.  Now with that and 5 bucks you can aget a cuppa Starbucks at most anyplace but an airport

Good shopping.

Daryl

[jcarter]

Speaking of cost, whew, just coming back from the beach a few minutes ago, we came across a brand new Mercedes station wagon with its sticker still on it in the parking lot.
$60,700!   Wow, thats more than what most of the boats being put in at the launching ramp cost!
Anyway, we were driving our older Ford F-150 4WD, and didn't even have our boat with us today.
I think that the words "want" and "need" get mixed up nowadays.
Jane

[Paddy]

I have many friends who own the AWD Subarus - around here in MA where we can get some pretty significant snowfalls, and in Ontario, and all are extremely happy with their performance in icy and snowy conditions. In several cases, both husband AND wife now own them. That's a pretty good endorsement!

[Gregg]

my 2 cents...

No holes in the body or floorboard.

Heater works.

[Johanbgoot]

It is quite normal in Montreal to get 150 to 200 hundred inches of snow a year, and temperatures that hover around -25 to -30 C in January to mid-february. We have a 1998 Subaru Outback with 4 top quality snow tires (rated to -40C).  It goes through anything and anywhere.  I have never had to shovel out the driveway in the morning, the car just plows through the banks onto the street.  But it must be said that driving in these conditions needs to be learned and practiced.  If possible, a defensive driving course might be very practical.  I got my licence at 17 and at 27 had a car and a Norton Commando motorcycle.  I thought I knew how to drive.  Well ignorance is bliss, until I took a defensive driving course, and it was the best damned present the first wife ever gave me.  I learned more about handling a vehicle in that one day than I ever imagined needed to be learned, and have practiced defensive driving since.  In the past 32 years I have not had an accident, (well now I've gone and jinxed myself).  
If snow and ice are regular conditions, go for and AWD.

[jcarter]

This is excellent advice!   My dad taught us defensive driving when we moved north into a snowy climate as teenagers.  I would be interested to see if our insurance co., our state, or the local AAA organization, would go forth with a class like this.

Also, we rent Suburu's when on vacation, and have had very good luck with them, enough so that we perhaps would consider a purchase.  They are highly regarded in our family too.
Great advice!   Thank you,
Jane

[Epaminondas]

Down the road in the rain and snow
The man and his machine would go
Oh, the secrets that old car would know . . .

_________________________________________


Thanks, All!

Much good information.


I came away from reading the thread, above,  with the understanding that Milady needs to seriously look at Subarus.

Milady came away from reading the thread, above, with the understanding that the car you drive doesn't matter, it's how you drive it.  Plus the concept that snow tires sound like a good idea.

Funny how two different people look at the exact same material and pick up on such different things.


So - we've been up to our ears in car stuff most of the day - plus keeping an eye on this thread as it grew.


Consumer Reports.  

Gillis' "The Car Book."

The web site of the Insurance Institute for Highway safety.

Epinions.com.

Edmunds.com.


After directing Milady to the Insurance Institute of Highway Safety's report "The Risk of Dying in One Vehicle Versus Another," she has become interested in the Toyota RAV4 - the fifth overall safest car in the US.  Seems that she wasn't interested in buying a new Mercedes Class E for some odd reason (the number one safe car on the list). Anyone know anything about the Toyota RAV4?  I never  heard of it before.

That safety article is an interesting read.  Did you know that you have a thirty times greater chance of dying when driving the most dangerous car in America - a Chevrolet Blazer 2-wheel drive SUV - compared to the safest car available?

Quite the eye opener.

http://www.iihs.org/sr/2005.html

(Status Report, Vol. 40, No. 3,  March 19, 2005)


I then directed her to another report on the same web page - "Institute announces Top Safety Picks: 10 winners, all 2006 models" - and she got interested in Subarus, again!

(Status Report, Vol. 40, No. 10, December 17, 2005)


Consumer Reports, April 2006, recommends the Subaru Forester over the Toyota RAV4.  Hmmm . . .


According to another article - just out in June - Electronic Stability Control prevents as many as one third of fatal accidents (SUV or regular car).  Plus 80% of SUV rollovers.  It looks like ESC is available throughout the entire Toyota line.  ESC is not available on the Subaru Forester - drat - it is only available on the Subaru Outback and the Subaru B9 Tribeca.

Status Report, Vol. 41, No. 5
http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr061306.html

2006 ESC Equipped Vehicles:
http://www.safercar.gov/pages/ESC-EquippedVehicles-2006.html


Hmmm . . . looks like the Toyota RAV4 also has some variation on all wheel drive . . .


Looks like it is getting down to the Subaru Outback vs. the Toyota RAV4.

Any thoughts of comparisons between the two?


Oh - we'll be calling the automoble  insurance company to get any list they might have on reducing insurance costs -  anti-theft gear, defensive driving school, whatever.

A set of snow tires sounds real good to both of us.

I am thinking that front wheel drive with Electronic Stability Control might be sufficient for the kind of driving she'll be doing - she might not really need AWD/4WD.  But ESC looks to be more important than I realized.

But it will be her choice - we'll see.


Oh - any suggestions on color?

She is thinking lighter over darker for visibility - sounds good to me - but I am thinking that all that may be reversed up Nawth.


Thank, again,

Epaminondas

________________________________________________


Watched him comin' up Winslow
Down South Park Boulevard
Lookin' good from tail to hood
Great big fins and painted steel
Man, it looked just like the Batmobile
With my old man behind the wheel

Well, you could hardly even see him
In all of that chrome
The man with a plan and a pocket comb
But every night it carried him home
And I could hear him sayin'

Don't you give me no Buick
Girl, you must take my word
If there's a God up in Heaven
He's got a silver Thunderbird
You can keep your El Dorado
Man, the foreign car's absurd
Me, I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird

He got up every morning
While I was still asleep
I remember the sound
Of him shufflin' around
Right before the crack of dawn
Is when I heard him turn
His motor on
And when I got up they were gone

Down the road in the rain and snow
The man and his machine would go
Oh, the secrets that old car would know
Sometimes I hear him sayin'

Don't you give me no Buick
Girl, you must take my word
If there's a God up in Heaven
He's got a silver Thunderbird
You can keep your El Dorado
Man, the foreign car's absurd
Me, I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird

Down the road in the rain and snow
The man and his machine would go
Oh, the secrets that old car would know
Sometimes I hear him sayin'

Don't you give me no Buick
Girl, you must take my word
If there's a God up in Heaven
He's got a silver Thunderbird
You can keep your El Dorado
Man, the foreign car's absurd
Me, I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird

Oh, Me I wanna go down
In a silver Thunderbird


Silver Thunderbird
Marc Cohn
1990

[sandbox]

OK E, it's a personal thang....... from this point on.... colors darker in cooler white environments...... of course....... for visibility and warmth.

I have hit many a white car buried under a snow bank with my plow.

Black is hard to keep clean in wet snow/salt/sand conditions/ what's the color of the mud on your car? In Georgia it's red........ so red cars are easier to keep clean if you live in Dahlonega Ga. around the foot of the Appalachian mountain trail. I'll bet in the coal fields a W. Virginia dirt get grayish. Earth colors are preferable. Keeping it clean = time & water.
The L.L. Bean addition is nicely equipped.

Moving on........ noise levels is an issue from manufacturer to manufacturer. "Listen to the road noise" Open wagons may seem louder than a sedan, snow tires are louder than standard issues.

On to tires...... a good set of All weather tires is all you'll need if issued by the manufacturer. If your doing at lot of off the road driving in deep snow then season swapping is a good idea. If you live in an area the has a lot of Black Ice, studs work well. If your crossing mountain passes in the US, some require chains. I run Michelins on my Cages and Dunlop's on my bikes.

Rear window wipers with defoggers are preferred

Interior comforts, hip & shoulder room is an issue in smaller vehicles. Can she reach the peddles,radio, mirror?  

Drive a lot of vehicle, test drive some upscale units in the same size to set some bench marks, after all It's the Ride that matters.....

 .....and the comfort and convenience of hour upon hour of redundant driving that will make or break a days end report. If wifey gets out of her car at the end of the day in discomfort, brought on by seating position or unnecessary driving fatigue, all your research would have been for not.

other issue: Residual value, length of ownership, marketability, own...... lease ....insurance cost....

Safety is important but buying a car for it's safety alone is not a good idea. They're all safe, really. The conditions of the roads, law enforcement, average age of drivers, or locations of bars is a study that would produce a better safety report. IMO

Happy Trails

[jcarter]

Chuck likes his V8 Fode and so do I, but its not great in the snow.  
http://www.chuckberry.com/music/lyrics.html#maybellene
Jane

[amaizen_aristotle]

There is a lot of good information here, but I will add a few things to consider (or not).  Regarding the drive wheels -- I agree that all wheel drive (AWD) is the way to go in general,  but it isn't the only thing to consider.  The general driving dynamics of the car play a large role in how the car handles in snow.  A well balanced rear wheel drive car will handle better in the snow than a poorly balanced front driver.  The advantage with AWD is two fold -- they have all four wheels available to bail you out of tough conditions, and because of the way the drive train is set up they are more likely to be fairly well balanced.  My wife had an Audi A4 Quattro that was incredible in the snow.  We traded it in on a Honda Accord, and to be honest, the Accord is more refined, handles very well in comparison to the Audi (which is quite a performer in sport trim), and with the traction control does well in snow here in Michigan.  Honda's are well known for their balance and handling, and this reputation is well founded.  Having driven (and raced) many different makes, Hondas have been in my driveway for years (my wife and I have had 5 Hondas now).  With this commercial in mind (I swear, Honda doesn't pay me a dime!) I would throw in a vote for the CR-V.

As for snow tires, I would highly recommend them.  They make a huge difference and would be money very well spent.  Blizzaks are especially good, though other makes are good as well.  The following article at Car and Driver might be worth a read.  This magazine is considered one of the premier in the auto world, and I generally agree with their opinions (when I am able to drive the cars that they review -- my access to Ferraris and Porsches and such is limited!).  



http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/3467/t...ing-column.html


Hope this helps,

AA

[bil207]

QUOTE

As for snow tires, I would highly recommend them. They make a huge difference and would be money very well spent. Blizzaks are especially good, though other makes are good as well. The following article at Car and Driver might be worth a read. This magazine is considered one of the premier in the auto world, and I generally agree with their opinions (when I am able to drive the cars that they review -- my access to Ferraris and Porsches and such is limited!).

I whole heartily agree and have Bridgestone Blizzaks on my Honda.

In winter I do quite a bit of driving in Northern New York's Adirondack Mountains and there is a noticable increase in stopping and handling ability as well as acceleration traction on snow, sleet and ice covered roads compared to the stock all seasons.

[Epaminondas]

Thanks again for the wisdom.

One thing that is helpful is the existence of significantly different opinions.  Not necessarily any one "right" answer.  Milady will see what experienced people think, focus on her areas of interest, and make her own decisions.


Oh - I survived a number of Toledo winters driving a Gremlin (fathers can be cruel - the Oedipal Complex swings both ways).  Rear wheel drive with 70% of the weight of the car on the front and 30% on the back.  Standard tires.  I learned to routinely rock my car out of parking places (I thought that was normal) and routinely performed controlled skids through turns - my car and I were as one.

So I'll probably be fine whatever I drive.  I have the experience.

But Milady has relatively little driving experience - it's a different situation.

I originally trained her to drive, myself -  on a video game machine at a video arcade - it was called  "Death Race 2000."  

She actually got to be pretty good at it.


Come to think of it -  maybe a defensive driving brush-up would be helpful for her, after all.


I just came up with a few more tidbits last night - plus some thoughts:  

(1) The Subaru Forester has an approximately four times higher death rate when compared to the Toyota RAV4.

That may seem unimportant to many - it is certainly not important to Consumer Reports.

But I've only got one girl.  

Whether or not it is important to her is her call.

(2) The Toyota RAV4 has some weird sort of 4WD/AWD set-up where it primarily powers the front wheels unless the back wheels are needed.  Apparently something of a next-generation electronic stability control.  We'll probably stop by a dealer this week and learn more.

(3) As long as whatever car she gets has some form of ESC with some form of traction control, I am for it.  I'll give her all the safety information I can, since my primary interest is in her safety - but she is the one who will have to balance safety against comfort and style and price.  This will be her baby - she will be the one paying for the machine.  But she has never dealt with the American car-buying system before - I'll be giving her a little guidance there - i.e., no extended warranties, etc., etc., etc..

(4) Sounds like we might want to visit a Honda dealership, as well.  I'll need to look at safety/ESC/traction control info.

(5) The specific snow tire recommendations are greatly  appreciated.  This may also impact housing - we may need room to store an extra set of tires (or two).


Thanks, again,

Epaminondas

_____________


Standin' on side of the highway 4 exit
A lady in tie die, a bag by her side
Not really lookin' like anything special
Saw Tennessee tags and she waved for a ride

Sat right beside me as the meter hit sixty
Explainin' her travels and her family background
When she got through I could not help but thinkin'
She's a long way from a West Nashville grand ballroom gown . . .


. . . Six hours later we hit Cincinnati
Yawning she woke and asked where we were
When she found out she said "I must be going"
This close to Nashville was too close for her.

So I stopped by the roadside and I gave her five dollars
She took it then kissed me and gave me a note
She told me just to read it then mail it in Nashville
On old loose leaf paper to her mother she wrote . . .


West Nashville Grand Ballroom Gown
Jimmy Buffett
1974

[Highmac]

As far as training is concerned, have you got a skidpan anywhere near you... something like this? Or is that what you call a defensive driving school anyway?

[RHPConsult]

Attention – Residents of Wisconsin (eastern MN, northwestern IA, northern IL)

QUOTE

I originally trained her to drive, myself - on a video game machine at a video arcade - it was called "Death Race 2000."

Uhhh . . .ummm . . . at what speeds: Fast, Incredibly Fast and Light?
 




 

[Epaminondas]

After a little more research:

Death rates compared to the Toyota RAV4 (RAV4 = 1):

Toyota Corolla - 5.1 X the death rate of the RAV4
Toyota Camry - 3.1
Toyota Avalon - 2.5

Honda Civic - 3.7
Honda Accord - 3.2
Honda CR-V - I cannot find this information

Subaru Forester - 3.9

Chevrolet Blazer 2dr - 17 X the death rate of the RAV4
______________________________________________________________

QUOTE

As far as training is concerned, have you got a skidpan anywhere near you... something like this? Or is that what you call a defensive driving school anyway?

I have never seen the skidpan training - looks like it might be a good idea.

I trained skidding for snow on a deserted snow and ice-filled movie theatre parking lot until I got pretty good at it.  More formal training might be a good idea, but I suspect it would be pretty expensive.

"Defensive driving," as I was trained, involves assuming that the other person may make a mistake - so give the other guy lots of room and lots of leeway.  Drive predictably and non-aggressively.  In other words - the opposite of what you see in Poland.

QUOTE

Attention – Residents of Wisconsin (eastern MN, northwestern IA, northern IL)
QUOTE
I originally trained her to drive, myself - on a video game machine at a video arcade - it was called "Death Race 2000."
Uhhh . . .ummm . . . at what speeds: Fast, Incredibly Fast and Light?

Death Race 2000 works best if you maintain the pedal to the metal.

I don't recollect there being a brake pedal.

It made teaching her to drive so much simpler.


I explained to her that my philosophy of driving is: "Other people don't like to have accidents."


First thing I did when I  got her in the driving seat of a real car was to deflect all those nasty distracting mirrors:

"What you can't see can't hurt you."


I can't understand why she seems so timid about driving . . .


Best regards,

Epaminondas