Author Topic: Music Downloads  (Read 10720 times)

Offline D76

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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2006, 11:44:41 AM »
QUOTE(mastercheif @ Nov 5 2006, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just because the RIAA want's to tell you it's illegal, doesn't mean it is. . . .And remeber, lets say you bought a CD of Pink Floyd 5 years ago and you lost it. It is your legal right to download it again because when you buy the CD, you are actulaly buying a Liscence to Play the product, the CD is a added in bonus.
Actually, I'm sorta in the position of a Mac user when it comes to Windows viruses, so far, anyway. It's legal in Canada to download music from anywhere, and Acqlite is in my apps folder. Royalties are covered, however, because blank media are taxed and the money allegedly distributed.

But since my musical tastes are a generation to three generations out of date, contemporary artists have little to fear from me, anyway. Most of the licences for my downloaded music are printed on the labels of my 78s. biggrin.gif

Offline Parker

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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2006, 12:45:55 PM »
I used to use Acqlite
and found it rather slow and always freezing up
so i switched to LimeWire now

QUOTE
Royalties are covered, however, because blank media are taxed and the money allegedly distributed.

By this you mean the money from the taxes on blank media is given to the music industry?
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Offline D76

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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2006, 01:18:09 PM »
QUOTE(Parker @ Nov 5 2006, 01:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
By this you mean the money from the taxes on blank media is given to the music industry?
This Register story is from Dec. 2003.
QUOTE
Three years ago Canada's copyright board imposed a levies on blank media. The cost is 21 cents per blank CD-R data or CD-RW disk, or 77 cents per blank CD-R Audio disc. The new fees for fixed media players are $2 for each device under 1 GB, $15 for devices 1-10 Gbs, and $25 for devices over 10 Gbs.
This is a June 2004 Ars Technica  story.
QUOTE
The Canadian recording industry has had to take a different tack than its US counterpart when it comes to music downloads. Late in 2003, the Copyright Board of Canada ruled that downloading music via P2P applications was legal, and other attempts to follow the route the US has taken with the DMCA have not panned out. While Canadian consumers do pay a tariff on all recordable media as a way of compensating the recording industry for lost revenue from personal copying, on the whole, they enjoy greater fair use rights than their neighbors to the south. Today's Supreme Court ruling closes off one possible avenue for erosion of those rights, ruling out the possibility that SOCAN could make an end-run around the the decision legitimizing downloads and double-dip in the royalty pot.
There is lots of stuff that's illegal to download, such as Talking Books, and it's illegal to upload music.

Offline Xairbusdriver

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« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2006, 03:00:35 PM »
All I'm going to say is consider this from the artists point of view. How would you feel if you were the artist whose work and income was being up/downloaded? If you specifically stated you wanted to give it away, that's your preogative. Otherwise, you would consider it your 'work'. One may have difficulty paying for room and board with 'applause'. I've yet to know of a mortgage company accepting that in lieu of cash.

Legality is based on current laws in various pricipalities. Fair pay for work is much older than most of these copyright laws. Whether it is legal to up/download may vary with each country, ethical actions require appropriate transfer of equally valuable commodities ( gold/silver/cash for works/art/effort ).

The only reason, IMHO, that people still 'debate' this issue, is because they fear the consequences of their own actions. That is not a fear in normal, legal, ethical commerce. And blaming it on lawyers is no excuse. smile.gif
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Offline mastercheif

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« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2006, 03:23:21 PM »
"All I'm going to say is consider this from the artists point of view. How would you feel if you were the artist whose work and income was being up/downloaded? If you specifically stated you wanted to give it away, that's your preogative. Otherwise, you would consider it your 'work'. One may have difficulty paying for room and board with 'applause'. I've yet to know of a mortgage company accepting that in lieu of cash."

That's pretty subjective. Most artists these days could actaully care less about how many albums they sell. The RIAA's Big Three have a absosulte monopoly on the music market. They give all artist's these days really bad contracts because where else are they going to go? If you wanted to have a popular band, where would you go? Sony BMG or a Indi lable? The big three swollow up most of the Artist's CD sales because you can attribute most CD sales to radio playback time, wich the Lables pay for. Most artist's actually make their money from other things such as merchindice and tours.

Offline D76

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« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2006, 04:52:55 PM »
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Nov 5 2006, 04:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fair pay for work is much older than most of these  copyright laws. Whether it is legal to up/download may vary with each  country, ethical actions require appropriate transfer of equally  valuable commodities ( gold/silver/cash for works/art/effort ).
The U.S. has the tax . . . er . . .  levy,  too.
QUOTE
At least 25 countries, including most G-7 and European Union  members, have introduced comparable regimes with respect to the private  copying of sound recordings. Canada is one of the last to do so.
 
  The USA is often held out as an example of a place where "this could  never happen", but as far as I can tell, it has been law there since  December 8, 1994. It is part of Title 17, section 1004, and if you go  to:
 
        http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1004.html
 
  you will find this paragraph:
 
        (b) Digital Audio Recording Media. - The royalty payment due  under section1003 for each digital audio recording medium imported into  and distributed in the United States, or manufactured and distributed  in the United States, shall be 3 percent of the transfer price. Only  the first person to manufacture and distribute or import and distribute  such medium shall be required to pay the royalty with respect to such  medium.
 
  Note, however, that in the US there is NO levy collected on "ordinary"  CD-Rs When the legislation was last changed (in 1994/1995) CD-Rs were  not seen as a media intended for copying music. There IS a levy applied  to other digital media, such as DAT and CD-R Audio.
There is  no  tax on iPods in Canada, though.
QUOTE
Canadian iPod price drop after  tax ruling
 
  Posted Dec 22nd 2004 11:02PM by Barb Dybwad
  iPods
 
  A recent federal court ruling means lower prices on iPods in Canada.  Expect to pay $25CDN less for a 20 or 40GB model, and $15CDN less for  the 4GB iPod mini at Canadian retailers Future Shop and Best Buy, or  through the Apple store.
 
  The ruling handed down by the Federal Court of Appeal of Canada says  that the Copyright Board of Canada improperly imposed a levy on digital  media devices, beginning in December 2003. The price reduction is being  immediately passed on to consumers directly from Apple, who until now  has been picking up the tab for the tax.
There is no end to the  labels'  greed.
 
  Here's another  story about all the deductions (including "breakage,"  mentioned in the previous link, that dates back to 78s). It sounds like  the 18th-century Royal Navy's practice of deducting pay until the  sailor owed the navy.
QUOTE
If the same contract terms apply to digital  sales as terrestrial sales, at the $9.99 retail price for albums on  iTunes, an artist would get somewhere between $1.00 and $1.40 per sale.  For a 99 cent single download, an artist would get 10 to 14  cents.
This  story that appears to have been written in 2004 discusses the  Canadian levy.
QUOTE
Given the tens of millions of dollars that the  Canadian government spends annually to support the creation of Canadian  music, it is apparent that the relative impact of lost royalties due to  file sharing pales by comparison.
  <snip>
  While artists may only receive a few pennies per blank CD, those  pennies add up to millions. By the end of this year, the CPCC will have  collected nearly $120 million since 1999 (the levy is expected to  generate $30 million in 2004), though the collective has been  agonizingly slow in distributing the proceeds.
  <snip>
  Despite the apparent success of the private copying levy, the record  labels, who lobbied to create the system in the 1990s, now criticize it  for failing to provide adequate compensation.
The labels argued  for it, and one of the reasons their lawsuits against downloaders  failed is because it was implemented. Such is greed.

Offline Xairbusdriver

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« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2006, 09:07:40 AM »
Dear Kettle,

Assuming what artist's assume gets one onto very slippery slopes, very quickly.

My contention is that the biggest source of the problem on this issue is, indeed, greed. But it's the individual consumer's greed. When most of us 'purchase' an object, we tend to think of it as ours. Unfortunately, 'art' can be so subjectively defined that copyright laws were conceived to protect the work of a wide range of 'art', some of which we now access in digital form. Blaming industry for the form in which artists have had their work replicated is simply an attempt to divert the spotlight of truth from our own dark actions. The fact is, the laws were written to protect the individual artist, whether the art was written, played or spoken/song. The laws give the individual power that they simply would not have had because of being an individual. Some sign contracts and have the resources of a company to help them, but any individual can also secure their rights due to these laws. That some don't, is no excuse for assuming that none care.

Because of copyright laws, we do not own the performances that we enjoy listening to or viewing. If you have trouble understanding what 'intellectual property' is, make an effort to learn, that is what our intellect is for. smile.gif And pray that when you do a days work, your employer doesn't decide that he 'owns' that work, so there's no need to pay you for it. eek2.gif

Greed, like most immorality, is extremely good at deceiving the one who practices it.

Some day maybe more will be as pure and perfect as I am. flower-smilie.gif

Signed: The Black Pot
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Offline Paddy

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« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2006, 09:47:59 AM »
Further note - last time I checked, possession was nine-tenths of the law. I would respectfully suggest that if you owned a Dark Side of the Moon CD "once upon a time" and then lost physical possession of it, you are no more entitled to downloading (for free) another copy from some ILLEGAL source like Limewire than someone who has never owned it at all. It makes about as much sense as losing a pair of running shoes and marching into a store and walking out with a replacement pair without paying, on the theory that "you used to own a pair." Sure, the music isn't a physical thing - but the harm is still there.

Limewire exists primarily to traffic in ILLEGAL downloads of copyrighted material - music, software, movies etc. What is so damn difficult to understand about this? Very little of what is on offer is actually legal.

This whole discussion has me immensely peeved. Artists own the copyright to their material - any attempt that you make to obtain that material without the express permission of the artist (either through purchase or the fact that that artist is explicitly allowing free distribution) is ILLEGAL. What part of that don't you all understand? There is no wiggle room there. "Fair use" does not apply in this situation.

As for the Russian site - you're a fool if you download music from there. As someone who has had a credit card number stolen by the Russian mafia (here in the US) I can assure you that they're a busy bunch. Wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole!!
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Offline RobW

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« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2006, 10:57:51 AM »
My $.02 for what it's worth. This thread has gone pretty far off-topic. I'm a bit concerned because there have been statements made here as "fact" with regards to the law that are simply not true. There are several people and sites that I'd be happy to refer people to should they be interested in what the law in the US is with regards to downloading and uploading of copyright protected music--and the risks they assume when using a p2p program. There are also many artists who would strongly disagree with the statement that the artists are the ones who are protected by copyright laws and are hurt by downloading of music via p2p apps. Again, I'd be happy to refer you to those that I consider as having expertise in this area. However, while I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this debate--it certainly doesn't seem like the right thread for it.
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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2006, 12:09:37 PM »
Proof of purchase is all you need. If you cannot produce a legitimate receipt for anything you posses then having anything in your possession can be questioned. Ignorance is no excuse, and cannot withstand the scrutiny of the law.

All your online activities are monitored and as technology improves the future will reach back into the past to produce documents of your illegal activity. 10 years from now when you’re applying for a position I will be able to access a databank, which will expose where you got that CD-MP3

It is happening today right here in our courtrooms, I deal with lawyers constantly and these cases are increasing their workload and income bracket. Youth is no excuse, your parents will be held liable for your illegal activity today, as you will be in the future. The cost is high when factoring in the court’s expenses, not to mention, a criminal record that will not be hidden by juvenile indiscretions.  nono.gif

Offline Paddy

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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2006, 02:48:48 PM »
Rob - you are correct in stating that not all artists own the copyright to their music (or any other form of art) - it is possible to sell the copyright. But copyright is just that; it protects the legal owner, whoever that may be. Some people seem to think that because a copyright may belong to a company rather than an individual that it's OK to infringe/"borrow"/illegally download...whatever. Some people also seem to think that because of perceived (whether real or imaginary) "unfairness" to artists, that ripping off record companies is ok.

So far the courts in the US have held that it is not legal to download copyrighted music without paying for it. You may not agree with the law or the "system" but that does not give you the right to rip others off, whoever those others may be. This may not be the right forum for this debate, but as soon as it strayed into recommendations of using Limewire to download music, it entered the arena of illegal downloading. Limewire itself is not illegal (despite what the RIAA may have to say about it - Limewire is not responsible for what its users do) - but the vast majority of users downloading music are doing so illegally.

Not getting caught doesn't make it right. Ripping off big companies doesn't make it right.

Proof of purchase is just fine - but how many of us have kept the receipts for every CD we've bought? And what about those given as gifts? And if the CD is "lost" - what are the chances someone else has it in their possession? I know I'm splitting hairs here - but if you don't have the CD in your possession and don't know where it is and are not sure that it is in fact physically destroyed, then you haven't much of a case. wink.gif
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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2006, 04:02:55 PM »
QUOTE
Proof of purchase is just fine - but how many of us have kept the receipts for every CD we've bought? And what about those given as gifts? And if the CD is "lost" - what are the chances someone else has it in their possession? I know I'm splitting hairs here - but if you don't have the CD in your possession and don't know where it is and are not sure that it is in fact physically destroyed, then you haven't much of a case.


According to Tort law standards the burden is yours to bear. Of course if you have nothing to hide it’s unlikely someone will ask for proof, but if they were already looking your gift would need to be accounted for within reason. You can’t ask a dead guy for example, but you can research a dead guys financials at Christmas 2002 to see if by chance he bought a Dark Side of the Moon CD.

Sounds silly today….. but the future is right around the corner.

For example, in 1969 I got a parking ticket in Vermont at the State Park. Two years ago when I went to renew my Fl. License, my License was revoked because of this parking ticket. I paid the ticket back then but had not way to prove it, so 35 years later I’m forced to pay it again or go to Vermont to contest it.

How did this happen? A new databank was installed and the payment was not properly recorded, in somebody’s pocket maybe, I don’t know, but for sure I would have been notified long before this time, given all the licenses I hold, that I had an outstanding warrant for parking tickets.

Sure I could fly to Vermont and demonstrate that they were wrong. I may even be able to access bank records if the bank had not been merged, which it was, three times.

The point is once called upon to prove ownership you would need to do so, within reason, that’s the law.

Offline Mayo

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« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2006, 04:56:44 PM »
I think that it is a complete waste of time to try and convince downloaders/freeloaders that what they are doing is wrong.  Most couldn't care less and do not think about the ramifications of their actions, just like all thieves.  The minority that do care to engage in these kinds of discussions have their rationalizations pretty well thought out, even if they are based on spurious logic.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 09:48:01 PM by Mayo »

Offline RobW

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« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2006, 05:24:52 PM »
Paddy wrote
QUOTE
...Limewire is not responsible for what its users do) - but the vast majority of users downloading music are doing so illegally. ...


Paddy, just to clarify--and again--it's already way off-topic here--In a US Supreme Court decision from June 2005 it was ruled (unanimously) that makers of software applications can be held liable for how their users use the product. So, while p2p applications like Limewire can be used to download a variety of files that are NOT copyright protected, they can be held liable if they "induce"  or otherwise encourage their users to download or share copyright protected files.

There are artists (and I've alluded to this in the past) who do allow (and even want) their work to be shared on p2p networks as a way of promoting themselves. Some are small indie artists, others are more well known. Janis Ian is one such example. BTW, when the RIAA uses people for copyright infringement, don't think for a second that the artists are the ones who receive those funds. My only point here is that it can be a somewhat complicated issue, and not as black and white/good vs evil as it may seem. It's also an issue that could have been addressed many years ago (in the early Napster days) had the industry not been so shortsighted and possibly greedy.

Sluggo, what was the question again? smile.gif
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Offline tacit

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« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2006, 06:41:32 PM »
AllOfMP3.com is an illegal site. People who use it in the United States are breaking the law.

The site is not illegal in Russia, because Russian law does not recognize non-Russian copyrights. (This may change; Russia is seeking entry into a Western trade group, and so far they have been denied because they do not recognize copyrights or patents from other countries. They are currently considering legislation to change that.)

However, if you are not in Russia, you are breaking the law by using it. If you are an American, you are bound by American copyright law. As an American, in the United States, under American law, it is illegal for you to make a copy of a copyrighted work without the copyright holder's permission no matter how you do it, what country the copy is made in, or under what circumstances the copy is made.

If you are an American and you are using AllOfMP3.com, you are breaking the law. Period. End of statement.

Many people attempt to morally justify violating copyright law on the grounds that the record labels are greedy (which is true), that the record labels behave in ways that are immoral (which is also true), that the record labels treat their artists poorly (which is undeniably true), and that the record labels lie about the cost of music downloads (which is true). None of these justifications changes one important fact: it is still illegal.

It is illegal to steal from someone you don't like. It is illegal to steal from someone who behaves immorally. It is illegal to steal from a business or corporation, just as it is illegal to steal from an individual. No bad behavior on the part of the recording industry makes copyright theft OK.

The people who try to justify and excuse copyright theft are almost always people who never create anything of their own, so they do not recognize the work that goes into making something original, nor appreciate the position of the person who created it. No matter how you slice it, stealing someone else's copyrighted work is not okay.

I do appreciate this, because I do create things that are novel, and I have had my intellectual property stolen by people who do not respect copyright. If I make a bad deal with some distributor and as a result that distributor doesn't pay me what I am worth, well, that's a poor choice on my part--but it still does not make it OK for you to steal what I have created.

If you like the music, pay for it. If you do not want to pay for it, don't have it.
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