Poll

Do you think it is wrong for Apple to include Safari in their PC Software Update, even if the user never installed it before?

"Yes, it is wrong; Apple is 'pushing' Safari"
9 (39.1%)
"No, Apple is not doing anything wrong"
5 (21.7%)
"I really don't give a "whoot" about the problems of PC users... that's why I bought/use a Mac!"
9 (39.1%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple  (Read 7279 times)

Offline Parker

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« on: March 23, 2008, 07:15:14 PM »
From MacWorld: http://www.macworld.com/article/132646/2008/03/mozilla.html

QUOTE
Mozilla CEO: Apple wrong ‘pushing’ Safari to Windows users
by Jim DalrympleMar 21, 2008 5:59 pm


Apple updated its Safari Web browser for Mac and Windows on Tuesday and offered the new version for download from its Web site. The company also began pushing the browser to Windows users — whether it was previously installed or not — via the Apple Software Update, a practice Mozilla CEO John Lilly said is just “wrong.”

“It undermines the trust relationship great companies have with their customers, and that’s bad — not just for Apple, but for the security of the whole Web,” said Lilly in a post on his blog.

The Apple Software Update application is installed on Windows PCs when iTunes and QuickTime are installed. With so many people owning an iPod and installing iTunes, there are quite a few people Apple could potentially reach using the updater.

Lilly doesn’t have a problem with Apple using its software update utility to keep its users up-to-date with iTunes and QuickTime, or any other Apple software they may have installed. The problem for Lilly is that even if you don’t have Safari installed, Apple pushes the update to users and checks the “install” box by default.

“By and large, all software makers are trying to get users to trust us on updates, and so the likely behavior here is for users to just click ‘Install 2 items,’ which means that they’ve now installed a completely new piece of software, quite possibly completely unintentionally,” said Lilly.

Lilly’s concerns go much deeper than offering a new piece of software that users didn’t ask for, he is concerned about the trust relationship that company’s build with their customers and the security of users on the Web.

“Apple has made it incredibly easy — the default, even — for users to install ride along software that they didn’t ask for, and maybe didn’t want,” said Lilly. “This is wrong, and borders on malware distribution practices.”

Lilly said the practice Apple took with the Safari update “ultimately undermines the safety of users on the web by eroding that relationship. It’s a bad practice and should stop.”

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Offline kimmer

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 08:29:17 PM »
I selected 2 answers, just because I could. biggrin.gif

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see how this is an issue of trust?



PS: Since your poll showed up twice, I deleted the dup. smile.gif

Offline Bruce_F

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 09:23:47 PM »
I don't particularly like the way Apple "pushes" applications through Software Update. It doesn't seem like the most kosher way to do get the word out about potential updates.

I have allowed updates to be installed knowing well that I would never use them just so I could get Software Update to leave me alone. Yeah, you can tell Software Update not run an update but then it continues to remind you of that decision.
-Bruce-

Offline kbeartx

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2008, 11:33:34 PM »
QUOTE(kimmer @ Mar 23 2008, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see how this is an issue of trust?


IMO, this guy is right-on and it IS about trust - what if you went to a hospital for one procedure and while you were under the anasthesia they removed your appendix b/c they saw something suspicious about it, w/o asking or telling you about it beforehand?  Maybe a better analogy is taking your car to the shop for a free warranty repair, and the mechanics noticed something else and replaced a totally unrelated part at the same time...

In principle, it's the same thing Apple has done here.  Even if you would have agreed w/ their suggestion had they asked, the fact that they didn't ask is sleazy and undermines trust.  

Or a website you visit that surreptitiously installs some software on your computer w/ asking or informing you about it.

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Offline kbeartx

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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 11:41:02 PM »
QUOTE(Bruce_F @ Mar 23 2008, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, you can tell Software Update not run an update but then it continues to remind you of that decision.


You can set Software Update to stop checking for updates automagically - that way it won't 'nag' you about any of 'em - but  if you want it to 'do its thang' you have to remember to ask it to check manually, when you want it to.  

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Offline krissel

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2008, 11:42:33 PM »
I guess Apple is learning to act like MS a bit too much.  rolleyes.gif


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Offline Parker

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2008, 11:52:36 PM »
thanks kimmer for deleting the dupe...
don't know how it showed up twice...

i'm not a fan of Apple pushing apps through Software Updater... but what they could do is push the app through the software updater and leave it unchecked, as means of advertisement. if the user wants the app, they can check the box... if they're just breezing through it, the box will remain unchecked and will be there next time software updater is run.
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Offline kimmer

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 02:41:56 AM »
QUOTE(kbeartx @ Mar 23 2008, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(kimmer @ Mar 23 2008, 08:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see how this is an issue of trust?

In principle, it's the same thing Apple has done here.  Even if you would have agreed w/ their suggestion had they asked, the fact that they didn't ask is sleazy and undermines trust.  

I don't see it that way. Since all the user has to do is unselect it, or go into prefs and tell it to not mention it again ... I guess it's a matter of perspective. Which is okay. smile.gif

QUOTE(Parker @ Mar 23 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
i'm not a fan of Apple pushing apps through Software Updater... but what they could do is push the app through the software updater and leave it unchecked, as means of advertisement.

Yeah, this would be the nicer thing.


Parker: you're welcome. smile.gif
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 02:42:15 AM by kimmer »

Offline gunug

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 08:18:10 AM »
People in general I think don't really like being forced to take things in order to get things.  I don't really "like" Safari because it always seems to run counter to my expectations and slowly!  So far I haven't had Safari "pushed" onto my PC's so I guess I'll wait and see how I feel if and when it happens!
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Offline Xairbusdriver

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 10:00:48 AM »
First, the default setting should never be to download anything that is not already installed. Period. This is a page right out of SPAMmers 'social engineering 101.' Don't give them a choice and maybe they won't even realize what they're getting. wink.gif

I would even go so far as to say the default setting for all update offerings should be an open checkbox. If the program is good enough for you to use and appreciate, wouldn't the user almost always agree by clicking the 'download' box?

Second, SU is a little more flexible than some seem to think. It can be set to not bug you about a specific software title, not just all or nothing.

Third, I have taken the position of never allowing any automatic install of any software from anybody, if possible. FF (and it's Add-Ons) are an exception, I've never had any trouble with their automatic installations). I wish I could say the same about Apple. Fortunately, SU allows for "Download Only" and that's what I use.

Fourth, I always make an archive of the original program (and its required files) before doing any kind of installation. Period. Why get cut by the bleeding edge?!

While analogies are often difficult to make, I'm not sure that I wouldn't want extra surgery performed when it is more easily recognized. And I suspect that the waver one signs is specifically to avoid any problems in that area. And I would also want any safety related item replaced, especially if still under warranty, if it is found during any other service on my vehicle. At the least, I expect to be notified that there is an additional problem found during other work and an authorization requested to repair it. That's the point I was trying to make in having suggested updates set by default to "available" instead of "automatically install" as in SU.

The "trust" comes from allowing the customer to choose what and when she wants something. If I am simply told, "This is good for you" just because it is available, I tend to question the company and expect some explanation as to why. There is an area of Psychology that states postulates that behavior can be quickly learned by a bad experience with some phenomenon (even a child quickly learns no to touch a stove). But learning a behavior because of a good experience takes much longer. Most animals, including humans, are not a trusting group, we must see continued evidence that the trust we supply has been earned by repeatedly good experiences. Thus, I allow FF updates automatically but not many others.

Now, where is that survey... laugh.gif

BTW, I hope the "don't give a whoot[sic]" votes are made with toungue in cheek. It's certainly not the attitude we usually display at TS. dntknw.gif
« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 10:03:32 AM by Xairbusdriver »
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system
CAUTION! Childhood vaccinations cause adults! :yes:

Offline Gregg

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2008, 12:13:31 PM »
As always, very good info here. I've got to figure out how to make SU stop alerting me to old updates I don't want!
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline kimmer

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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2008, 12:47:43 PM »
QUOTE
First, the default setting should never be to download anything that is not already installed. Period. This is a page right out of SPAMmers 'social engineering 101.' Don't give them a choice and maybe they won't even realize what they're getting. wink.gif

I do agree, off by default would be the best line. I asked several of my win pals (those who are computer savvy and run virus protection, etc) about this, and none of them were upset. They were split on accepting Safari and trying it, and unchecking it and not downloading it.

QUOTE
I've got to figure out how to make SU stop alerting me to old updates I don't want!

Highlight whatever the update is, go to the UPDATE menu and select IGNORE UPDATE. smile.gif

Offline Xairbusdriver

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2008, 03:04:20 PM »
QUOTE
go to the UPDATE menu
That's also where the "Download Only" option is.
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system
CAUTION! Childhood vaccinations cause adults! :yes:

Offline Mayo

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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2008, 05:06:57 PM »
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Offline Gregg

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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2008, 08:57:08 PM »
QUOTE(kimmer @ Mar 24 2008, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE
I've got to figure out how to make SU stop alerting me to old updates I don't want!

Highlight whatever the update is, go to the UPDATE menu and select IGNORE UPDATE. smile.gif


Or, I could just wait til someone tells me. Having never used SU until very recently, that's the easiest way!

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Shhhhh! Mayo's trying to sleep. (I could tell you how to use Expose for that....) wink.gif

P.S. I bet there's some way to get that little accent mark to show up over the 'e'.... Speaking of E; long time no see.

´E é É
« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 06:48:36 PM by Gregg »
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.