Author Topic: Congratulations America!!  (Read 13410 times)

Offline kimmer

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Congratulations America!!
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2008, 11:26:29 PM »
Sandbox, nice song, nice voices ... too bad those guys can't lip-sync in time to the music. wink.gif

QUOTE(gunug @ Nov 7 2008, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As to any political aspect of this thread I have decided to decline comment as I've "really" learned my lesson about things like this.

Couldn't agree more. smile.gif

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2008, 08:46:42 AM »
QUOTE(kimmer @ Nov 7 2008, 11:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(gunug @ Nov 7 2008, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As to any political aspect of this thread I have decided to decline comment as I've "really" learned my lesson about things like this.

Couldn't agree more. smile.gif

I, on the other hand, could not disagree less. tongue.gif wink2.gif
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline sandbox

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Congratulations America!!
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2008, 03:21:33 PM »
Yes Kim the lips could have done a better job. wink.gif

Gunug.

Of course one can say it's politics, that doesn't make it so. This was a global movement not a partisan one.
We have just been reminded by the world, like it or not, that this experiment does effect what happens everywhere else.
Take for example this argument on economics and see how our policies effect the global markets around the world. Is that politics or mathematics?
The US election was about numbers, how much did each vote cost? If you do the math you may discover the the only difference between one side of the fence and the other was 6% a two percent shift to the left in the partisan debate and a 4% increase in independent activity. Is that a political argument or a mathematical observation? Expectation bring disappointment, not a political statement but a theoretical observation. Music by the Temptations emphasized that point in poetic harmony not in political rancor. If the discussion disturbs you, thank you for not participating. I can easily pass by some posts without comment, without making some leap that it instigates a political discourse, religious fever or sexual innuendo. The post was made, it was received and responded too by those who wanted to add to it, to claim that they or I are bending rules because of the topic rather than the exchanging is taking the rules a bit to far.
We can all take the rules too far....I choose to just ignore the post and the posters that will most likely cause conflict rather than cause the conflict by suggesting that it has the potential to cause conflict. wink.gif


Offline sandbox

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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2008, 10:40:45 PM »
This was a video I found when I happen to be listening to Sting in iTunes and the words struck me as somewhat applicable  to the event and the reaction of the vote.Brand New Day

I like Psychologist Steven Pinker's view of political language and how it works for us, for them.

Offline krissel

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Congratulations America!!
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2008, 04:08:17 AM »
Pinker took 5 minutes to state the obvious.  wink.gif


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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2008, 03:54:16 AM »
QUOTE(krissel @ Nov 10 2008, 06:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pinker took 5 minutes to state the obvious.  wink.gif


True but where do you find anyone telling the broader public that they're voting for obscurity.
The act of saying nothing is the art of politics and people pay billions now for what will surely disappoint them.
The price of nothing is going up. Oh sure, you can read between the lines, you can look at past voting records, you can dream and place an agent of change in it, but you can't hold them accountable for obscurity and so there is no real remedy for what has depreciated the value of our process and nation as a whole.

Where are the facts about our financial crisis? All that is being broadcast is that we're in one, but not why we suddenly find ourselves there. Who are they protecting? You, me or the nations holding 5 trillion in Sovereign wealth funds that want to buy our strategic assets? If the general public knew that we are down to selling our national parks to pay for mismanagement wouldn't they want to examine how we got here rather than accept the fact that we are? It needs to be stopped and accountability is our only remedy, otherwise we may as well just forget about elections altogether.


I'm not addressing politics I'm addressing the process and how ineffective it is for the electorate. I'm amazed at how malnourished the species has become for honest discourse and how desperate they seem to settle for anything even obscurity.

Offline krissel

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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2008, 04:51:06 AM »
Having spent all too many years in the classroom observing what the future holds, I'm not surprised that most of the electorate doesn't know or in fact want to know the truth. We've spent so much time believing what we will and no amount of information will open the eyes of those who don't want to see.

The ignorance of peoples in general won't be cured by reports on the genesis of the latest crisis. I've spent a lot of time lately reading on the implications of Sarbanes/Oxley, repeal of Glass/Steagall, congressional undersight of Fannie Mac/Mae as well as the advocacy of home ownership by the 'underfunded'.  These are just a few of the multitude of acts and events that brought us to our present crisis. Unfortunately much of our populace doesn't understand the basics of a home budget let alone something more encompassing. For sure the education system doesn't do a good job of teaching in this area and the average family fails to emphasize to their children the importance of knowing these things since they don't have a clue either.

As to foreign countries buying our assets, yup, that's a danger but somewhat ameliorated now by the fact that many of their funds were tied up in our Wallstreet leverages which of course are now worth little. And since their own economies are struggling they will need to focus their spending on their own turf for now. We do need to watch out for the maintenance of the prime lending rate being kept too low, too long like it was in the Greenspan era. That helped inflate the housing bubble as well as keeping the dollar at a low which encouraged foreign entities to buy our properties.

There are so many things that contributed to this mess and some additional oversight will be necessary. But we have to judge carefully that new regulations are smart ones and not those that will stifle the economy.

Say Mark, why don't you run for office?  wink.gif  tomato.gif
« Last Edit: November 11, 2008, 04:56:08 AM by krissel »


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Offline Gregg

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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2008, 06:57:56 AM »
QUOTE(krissel @ Nov 11 2008, 04:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
These are just a few of the multitude of acts and events that brought us to our present crisis.


Of course the "acts" you mentioned before that sentence are pieces of legislation. The "events" are things outside of the legislative process. As I've alluded to in another thread (not using the same terminology) I think the events have a greater impact than the acts.

A case in point: Here in Milwaukee, voters approved a referendum requiring employers to give their employees paid sick time for themselves or their children. If you employ 10 or fewer (or fewer than 10?) people, they must be given 5 days, otherwise, it's 9 days. I believe there is a minimum number of hours per week that they have to be scheduled to work in order to qualify.

So, how will small business owners respond to the ordinance that makes Milwaukee an island in the local economy?
1. Employees will get fewer hours to keep them under the minimum (think restaurants and other work places where a schedule is made for each week)
2. Small businesses will stay small to avoid the threshold between 5 and 9 days.
3. Someone will test the meaning of "is". That is to say, they might try to award "personal time" which will be defined as any day off that you want, for whatever reason. They will not increase the number of such days at all, because this will encompass their vacation policy.

As I also said in that other thread, we will always need new laws to deal with the unintended consequences of the old ones. Things get dicey when money is involved!
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline sandbox

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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2008, 07:24:32 PM »
Kris, I've looked into the policy changes that opened the gates for minorities in the last administration. It was well intended but too loosely written and the new home owners were regulated under fanny-freedy.  This admin. comes in and creates the ownership society to stimulate the economy, a totally different animal. There were abuses to minorities when the last admin. addressed the issue, income qualification were set at 24-25% of gross. fanny-freddy changed the cap to 31%. I have been involved with a few disputed cases from my little corner of the world. The Go Shopping mentality was a slight of hand and many people took out second mortgages to buy SUV's or vehicles that they couldn't otherwise afford using monies derived from the low interest rates they got on their property. These loans aren't even being addresses in the bailout. These properties were financed at a fictitious value and now that the property value is being reset some of these people are upside down, owing more than the value of the property where it's a smarter move to walk away in foreclosure, file bankruptcy and restructure in 3-5 years. It was a known fact that fanny-freddy were the most secure loaning instruments as compared to any others available prior to the bubble. It is also known the it wasn't until 2006-7 that fanny-freddy bought into the subprime paper, they didn't restructure their qualifications, they leveraged against bad paper. This all started to fall apart in 1980. Deregulation and trickle down economics. it was a mess in 88 and our debt had doubled, equity had shifted up and there was no investment in R&D except by the government which brought in the tech industry. From 88 to 92 the dept doubled again and the administration changed. 92-2000 the equity shifted downward and real wages bought real value as the savings rate began to climb, both personally and governmentally. The Y2K issue was a scare tactic to stimulate retooling computer hardware. When the market was saturated the bubble collapsed, just in time for a new administration. The new millinum rolls in with obscurities about lock boxes and dept reduction but in reality they doubled the size of the debt. Do I see a pattern emerging? wink.gif

Offline krissel

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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2008, 02:38:41 AM »
Perhaps, but a somewhat different pattern in my view. Note the dates. wink.gif

QUOTE
September 30, 1999

In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.


QUOTE
In July, the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed that by the year 2001, 50 percent of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's portfolio be made up of loans to low and moderate-income borrowers.


QUOTE
Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...xprod=permalink

QUOTE
September 11, 2003
New Agency Proposed to Oversee Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae

The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.

The new agency would have the authority, which now rests with Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies. It would exercise authority over any new lines of business. And it would determine whether the two are adequately managing the risks of their ballooning portfolios.

The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt -- is broken. A report by outside investigators in July concluded that Freddie Mac manipulated its accounting to mislead investors, and critics have said Fannie Mae does not adequately hedge against rising interest rates.


QUOTE
Significant details must still be worked out before Congress can approve a bill. Among the groups denouncing the proposal today were the National Association of Home Builders and Congressional Democrats who fear that tighter regulation of the companies could sharply reduce their commitment to financing low-income and affordable housing.

''These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis,'' said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ''The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.

''I don't see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,'' Mr. Watt said.


The proposal died in Congress.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...xprod=permalink

The Clinton administration was obsessed with multiculturalism and social engineering which dictated where mortgage lenders could focus their market. Regulations forced some lenders to lower standards for loans in order to avoid government penalties. Bill wanted the Community Redevelopment Act to be the force behind loans that encouraged minority homeownership.

Yes, the meltdown was fueled by greed and overleveraging in the secondary market for subprimes by Wallstreet funders but the origin was much earlier in the mid/late 90's.  Indeed the Bush administration is not blameless, nor is either party in Congress. However the seed was planted in the ’90s by Clinton and his social engineers who were the political catalysts behind this slow-motion financial train wreck.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 02:39:28 AM by krissel »


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Offline krissel

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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2008, 08:05:58 AM »
OK, I apologize to my fellow admins who are probably squirming right now.  wink.gif
I suppose I've crossed that invisible line and I will not make any more personal, political observations... even though I was really just trying to correct a widely misunderstood chain of events.... (slaps wrist). taped.gif


Gregg, you're right of course that events have an unknown effect on how things eventually develop. Sometimes the best of intentions are skewed by external circumstances. Sometimes you can predict the results by looking at past history elsewhere and sometimes not.

In our teacher's contract at one point we had a similar dilemma. In an attempt to save money, the Board of Ed put in our contract that they would not give benefits to anyone who worked less than a 20 hour work week. On the surface it looked fair enough so we didn't object however what happened was anything but fair.  Instead of hiring 3 full time teachers to cover a subject area, they would hire 6 part timers. The writing was on the wall for the future so we spent a good deal of time and eventually other 'givebacks' to alter that ruling. Eventually we added stipulations that made it more difficult for them to just chop up all the positions in order to save on benefits. It still happens to some extent but keeping continuity, especially in the elementary level, is really important to the children.

It just means we have to be all the more diligent in watching what goes on and hoping for the best.  
(Gee, now there's a "duh" statement.)  rolleyes.gif
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 08:06:18 AM by krissel »


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Offline Gregg

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Congratulations America!!
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2008, 12:11:28 PM »
QUOTE(krissel @ Nov 12 2008, 08:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I suppose I've crossed that invisible line ....

Yes you have. It's called page two. Maybe nobody will notice. wink2.gif
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Paddy

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Congratulations America!!
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2008, 12:49:50 PM »
I caught part of the Current this morning on the CBC - they were talking to Robert Auerbach about the bailout, and earlier about the lawsuit that Bloomberg has now filed about the lack of transparency regarding the bailout. Interesting stuff - definitely worth checking out. You can listen to the broadcast and/or read about it here:

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2008/200811/20081112.html
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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2008, 01:39:27 PM »
I've been keeping an eye on that Paddy, I use BTV on DirecTV channel 353 as a satellite market resource as well as http://www.bloomberg.com/index.html?Intro=intro3 online and mobile. In my opinion Bloomberg, Pickins, and a few others should do what they can to restore confidence in the market and the government. my suspicion is that they are protecting friendly investors in oil producing countries who pulled the plug on us. If the population knew who it was they may no longer view them as friendlies.

Offline krissel

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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2008, 02:31:11 PM »
This might be of interest to many:

A Quiet Windfall for US Banks

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0902155_pf.html


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