Author Topic: Congratulations America!!  (Read 13411 times)

Offline Mayo

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 3215
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2008, 02:38:43 PM »
In the spirit of providing equal time for differing viewpoints I feel compelled to respond to Kris' earlier post...

It has become fashionable among some conservative politicians and more than a few conservative pundits to place a lot, if not the majority of the blame for the mortgage meltdown on government sanctioned lending to minorities and lower-income citizens. It is just more of the same simplistic reasoning and fear-mongering that has been the bedrock of Republican pandering to its base; I hope that now that the conservative ideology has been so thoroughly discredited that we will be able to move on and intelligently address the many complex problems facing our country.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 03:04:38 PM by Mayo »

Offline Gregg

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 11748
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2008, 04:30:16 PM »
QUOTE
Maybe nobody will notice.

So much for that!
I guess it's time....
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 06:25:57 AM by Gregg »
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline sandbox

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 7825
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2008, 02:38:54 AM »
Kris, No doubt Clinton's policies effected the leveraging of loans beyond the normal limits. No argument there.
The purpose was to help people who worked and live on the margins. A noble cause, arguable.
The Bush Bill failed in a republican congress, no? No doubt he knew it would.
If you examine the failures and foreclosure rates of fanny and freddy before the bubble you may discover that they were lower than the market average. Although the Mac loans were going to people on the margins the qualifications were high and so was the oversight. That's why Bill pushed harder, he thought that there was more wiggle room, he thought that the banks were not taking enough risk since the risk was being leverage by the Fed. He thought he could push the envelope, he did, and still the failure rates were low. To me that's the key,... were the Mac Loans failing, and from my observation they were not. Yes they had too much paper out on loan, but it wasn't foreclosing at a high rate, it was lower than average so the risk was worth it. Along comes a need to invest with an over liquid economy. There was tons of money and no place to put it. The tech market was saturated, 9-11 shifted huge borrowed funds to the pentagon, the economy was stagnant so property was stimulated, not by demand, but by lower rates and speculation. It was a windfall until Katrina and reality set in. My property value quadrupled in 5 years, which made me laugh and scream because i knew it was a fabrication and now I was forced to pay a huge insurance bill on a fabricated price and a tax increase to boot. The states, counties and local communities loved it, they had money to burn, they weren't about to regulate anything.

I got 5 offers a week to sell, 10 to buy, and that wasn't nothing compared to friends who lived on the beach and picked  their mail off the ground because  the box was too full to hold it. Their property increased 700%, how's them apples? And, the people who were buying up the properties were not home owners, they were speculators. They just passed the property back and forth between them for 5 years and not with freddy/fanny money. You had to be here to appreciate it. Loan sharks walking the streets giving out second morgages like milktoast and folks driving home in their new Escalades. These were smart people being convinced that they needed to get on the band wagon, it was so stupid. the cars were being sold with 0 down and no payments for 3 months, some were 6 months....please....my sides were killing me from laughing so hard. Welcome to Disney Town. hi.gif wink.gif This area, like so many developing regions, were targeted by professionals. The failure here were by speculators not folks living on the margins buying houses beyond their means.

I'm sure as the economy begins to dry up, that more marginal people will fail, they are the first to loose, but they weren't the cause of our local crisis nor do I suspect they caused the failures in Nevada, California, or any other high impacted region. Property held in other states were not effected, it was only in developing or re-developing areas of the country. The first planned bailout was a joke, Paulson should be ashamed of himself for trying to bailout the speculators.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 03:05:15 AM by sandbox »

Offline krissel

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 14735
    • View Profile
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2008, 03:14:31 AM »
Mark, my community went though the same kind of extremely exaggerated price inflation. I would get offers in the mail from real estate brokers who were dying to sell my house or buy it themselves to flip. I even had a couple knock on my door, too. Now mind you, my house is a little dump but it is on a nice piece of property in a town full of McMansions. As of last year (I'm sure not now) half the houses in my town were assessed at $1 million or more. My mistake was probably in not selling out and moving to a cheaper place while I could. Oh, well I couldn't leave the folks anyway so that will remain just a pipe dream. rolleyes.gif

As to all the foreclosures these days and the desire for people to own homes..well I joked to my Dad tonight that all anyone has to do is wait a while and home prices will be affordable, everywhere. If they have no job maybe not, but anyone who managed to save prior to the present day should be able to pick up some nice bargains. wink.gif

As to who is at fault for all this... the list could go on infinitum.

As far as I'm concerned the ultimate "blame" lies not in the labels or slogans attached to personal beliefs, nor in a particular political party. It lies in each individual who thought that somehow they would be getting something for little or no effort. Corporate greed is a manifestation of personal greed extrapolated. According to Gekko (aka Boesky), greed is a catalyst for good and there may be a kernel of truth to that. However the problem lies in the level of greed, its intent, extent and how it is channeled.

The profit motive has been responsible for much of the advances in our society. The real question is at what point does the desire for enlightened self-interest (as Adam Smith noted) cross the line to become greed? While some of the execs walking away with billions have more money than I will ever have, at least I have something they don't...the ability to recognize how much is enough. (apologies to Joseph Heller)

Capitalism may be put down by those who desire a more controlled environment and with the recent events that's understandable. However it is the Capitalist philosophy that provides for creativity, innovations and opportunity. Where would Apple be today if not for the economic freedom to invest in their future and that of their consumers? And largess is often the purveyor of advances that result in cheaper prices brought about by economies of scale.

Of course unbridled greed is all too often part of unfettered aggression and illegal manipulation within the business world that is destructive to markets and societies. Equipment-related capital investment can bring about inexpensive products but low wages or using cheap foreign labor does little to advance the economy as a whole. Thus the need for limitations to prevent the extremes that we have witnessed to sickening excess these past months. However too much government intervention can result in equal damage and dysfunction thereby curbing any motivational resurgence that will be necessary to pull us up out of this crevasse.

Ultimately it is the citizen who is responsible for what happens in our country and indeed conditions demand that we are highly extrospective in the days to come.

Some interesting reading on greed:

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=85971  (from 2002)

http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/GreedIsGood.htm
« Last Edit: November 13, 2008, 03:19:50 AM by krissel »


A Techsurvivors founder

Offline Gregg

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 11748
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2008, 06:42:06 AM »
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline sandbox

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 7825
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2008, 03:40:46 PM »
Kris, then you know from experience what the market created. Folks around my other properties outside Florida haven't got a clue. They will pay for something that never effected them. There was no boom or bust in those communities. Here, folks had to sell their properties to speculator because they could no longer afford the insurance and taxes. It especially hit the commercial property owner hard. These people weren't even playing, they had no intention of buying or selling, they were priced out of their properties by money chasing high returns.

I'm all for rewarding risk, which basically is all capitalism is. Like all games there needs to be rules. Imagine a football game without referees? Or even worse, they have referees that pretend they're regulating when in fact they are not so the people think th the rules are being followed and do nothing to address the issue. The market was abused and people were exploited and now they're telling us there is no justice because the players were too big to fail. Meanwhile they took the profits offshore, away from regulation and taxes and the system is structured to allow this to continue.

Along comes Change, a new beginning, a time of co-operation for the future but with no commitment to accountability. Without a commitment to accountability we can only expect a return to this game in the future when the money is looking for higher rates of return. The higher rates devalue labor and so the bell tolls once again.

The third world is catching up, in 25 years India will be producing 6x more emissions than they do today. China will be producing 4x more. Central an south America will triple in todays investment strategy but if with finance trade with the south the emissions could be 7x todays rate. All these countries will be on a fast tract to the bottom, who can produce at the lower cost. I think it's too late to have any influence on any of these countries. I think they have the capacity to create economies between them and without us. We set the example and now we have to live and die with it.




Offline krissel

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 14735
    • View Profile
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2008, 02:56:38 AM »
Yup, in the vernacular, we got 'screwed'.  wink.gif

I would like to think that most of TS members are intelligent and hardworking yet I'll bet (like me) they were unaware of what was going on behind the scenes. We, as the citizenry, have to be more proactive and question all the changes and laws that will be proposed to be sure there are checks and balances in place.

Which brings me to a question to anyone who has bothered to follow this thread...(probably scared away everyone wink.gif)

Have you contacted your home insurance agent to ask if they are going to reduce your coverage, hence your premium?

If our homes have reduced in value then the insurance we had on them should be lowered. Yet I'll bet no insurance carrier has taken the initiative and offered to do so. That's a ton of money that those companies will bank during the downturn in values. I haven't seen any articles or reports on the subject.

Anyone had such a conversation with their agent?  Thinking.gif


A Techsurvivors founder

Offline sandbox

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 7825
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2008, 03:45:08 AM »
Oh ya, went right to the city council to reduce the tax rate, same with the county. Then went after the insurers. Now, we kept our insurance though we own our properties, some folks dropped their policies and risked hurricane season without it. Others who have financed property are required to have insurance, and they were the ones in a pickle. I want my property to continue to fall; it's still way over valued. And I suspect that's what the Fed is waiting for as well, they don't want to back over-priced properties then sit on the houses until they reach a point of affordability.

It's a balancing act and no one knows where the fulcrum is. For the folks established before 2003 they should be OK unless the hocked their equity. Anyone with newer acquisitions purchased in an inflated market need to have the prices stabilize now, just so they're not upside down. They purchased in the bubble and should pay for their mistake, but they shouldn't be destroyed over it. A 10% slap on the wrist for not paying attention and they will learn a lesson. But a 40% devaluation could be a lifetime of playing catch-up, and that's just not fair. All the speculators that got caught without chairs in the game of musical chairs should pay full price. And all the people and companies that exploited the system should be milked of their resources and held accountable for their actions.

I keep hearing that the task is too great, that they can't get all the bad guys. Well, I can identify everyone that was involved in this neck of the woods, and I'm sure with a key player in every market we could round them buggers up and cash them in. I can't tell you how many calls, emails or conversations I've had from seniors who were being hustled by marketeers, many, many. And I have all the contact info about each one. I've been busy, waiting for this to unravel as have others. wink.gif

Offline Gregg

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 11748
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2008, 06:28:58 AM »
QUOTE(krissel @ Nov 14 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which brings me to a question to anyone who has bothered to follow this thread...(probably scared away everyone wink.gif)

Nah! But I bet had the sharper partisan criticisms been leveled at the other side, it would have been locked.
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline krissel

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 14735
    • View Profile
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2008, 06:53:35 AM »
Nope, this is an attempt to discuss a problem that affects us all.  I made a mistake in being a bit too political and I stated such. A different view has been expressed and that's that. Judging which criticism was 'sharper' or more 'partisan' would be a guessing game at best. Let's let that be.

It's more important at this point to keep each other informed of events that are ongoing in our path through this economic morass. We've covered the blame part, now let's see if we can help one another survive what is to come and keep an eye on what is happening around us.

smile.gif
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 06:54:41 AM by krissel »


A Techsurvivors founder

Offline Gregg

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 11748
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2008, 08:41:11 AM »
QUOTE(krissel @ Nov 14 2008, 06:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Judging which criticism was 'sharper' or more 'partisan' would be a guessing game at best. Let's let that be.

I disagree with the first statement, and agree with the second. Apology accepted, however, the posts in question do violate our rules. The inaction violates policy, and does not conform to precedent. I've seen threads locked for far less. I kept being shocked when I came back to this forum and saw this thread still open.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 08:46:10 AM by Gregg »
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline krissel

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 14735
    • View Profile
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2008, 09:18:06 AM »
What, you aren't ready for change?  wink.gif

Seriously, each individual has an opinion and that's what makes life interesting. You are entitled to yours...however I am equally surprised to see you attempting to re-ignite the situation. Thinking.gif


A Techsurvivors founder

Offline Paddy

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 13797
    • View Profile
    • https://www.paddyduncan.com
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2008, 10:44:35 AM »
Well, Gregg, call it an experiment to see if TS could discuss a potentially prickly subject in a civil manner. Believe me, we've been keeping an eye on things. We agreed (in our own discussions behind the scenes) that the current thrust of the discussion was both interesting/valuable and had veered away from being particularly political. If people can keep it that way, we're happy. We're not keen on locking threads if we feel we don't have to. Obviously there are a couple of contributions in this thread which could be viewed as over the line - we are well aware of that. Those contributions weren't responded to - or not in a way that took things in a political/flame-baiting direction - which should be fairly indicative of the membership's lack of tolerance for that sort of thing. In this instance, self-policing seems to be working. Let's keep it that way.

Now...back to the discussion at hand.

In MA, the towns and cities are allowed to increase the total amount collected by 2.5% over the previous year. (Based on the total assessed value of ALL property and there is a levy ceiling of 2.5% of all assessed property). I don't think any towns tax at or near the ceiling, so in most cases, taxes won't go down, even if the assessed value drops significantly, unless the assessed value drops significantly in comparison to the rest of the property in town.

In Toronto, we don't have any tax limitation law - the city looks at what it needs to raise and then sets the mill rate accordingly. The valuation is from Jan. 1, 2008 - and it's no good going to the Municipal Property Assessment Corporation and complaining because your assessed value is less since then - they don't reassess every few months! (I AM a little annoyed that a few of my neighbors living in houses built in the past 2 or 3 years seem to be paying taxes based on the bungalows that used to be there...but that's another story).

So - it really will depend on the tax situation in the place where you live, but overall, since values have fallen fairly uniformly within municipalities, I wouldn't expect anyone's tax bill to go down much (and in fact mill rates may increase in order to collect the needed amount). Insurance is a different thing of course - though again, it should be based on the REPLACEMENT value, rather than the actual real estate value, so I'm not sure you'd be likely to see much decrease there either, as there hasn't been any mass reduction in the cost of building materials or household goods.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 10:45:55 AM by Paddy »
"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into committees. That'll do them in." ~Author unknown •iMac 5K, 27" 3.6Ghz i9 (2019) • 16" M1 MBP(2021) • 9.7" iPad Pro • iPhone 13

Offline jwboyd

  • Super Duper Poster
  • ****
  • Posts: 912
    • View Profile
    • http://
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2008, 03:52:53 PM »
I, too, have watched this thread closely as it has morphed from being close-to-the-line political into practical economics. Now I've surprised myself by chiming in. So far, the posts have mostly been interesting and enlightening.

I am president of the Homeowners Association in our small subdivision. We have recently had informal discussions along these same lines. I will visit with our insurance agent in a couple of days, about Association business. I will ask him about whether it is possible to adjust premiums based on current market values and/or replacement cost.

I vote for keeping this thread open so long as it does not become blatantly political.
I'm not a complete idiot -- a few parts are missing!

Offline Paddy

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 13797
    • View Profile
    • https://www.paddyduncan.com
Congratulations America!!
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2008, 04:53:24 PM »
Interesting information on insurance premiums and where those premiums actually go can be found here:

http://www.iii.org/media/facts/statsbyissue/homeowners/
"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into committees. That'll do them in." ~Author unknown •iMac 5K, 27" 3.6Ghz i9 (2019) • 16" M1 MBP(2021) • 9.7" iPad Pro • iPhone 13