What programming language would be best?

[Mrious_be]

Hi everyone,

For a while now, I have an idea that I somehow want to see developed up to the point I'll have to make decisions on what to do with it (go for it or not).
My initial idea, and still my most favorite idea is to create an online package that people can access and use as a service to them.
At this point to be able to use this service you'll either have to go to an agency that can help you with it, and you'll pay a good deal of money, or you can do it online but than you'll only have the basic functions.
I want to clear the middle ground and give people the ability to do this without the intervention of an agency and still have full access and control to what they want with all the options that comes with it.
This service is slowly turning in an online business (didn't used to be like that) and that's also the reason why I want to do this online.
Here are my 3 different paths to go:
1) Favorite: create online software package that people can access and use. No need to pay for access or software but payable when you use the service.
2) Offline software package (Windows) free of charge but payable when you use it and publish online.
3) Offline software package (Windows), payable but free to use it on any website/host of your choice.

Obvious, it's easy to predict problems with choice 2 and 3 unless you are really good in making it secure, still... people will find a way around whatever you do.

So, for all of you who have experience in any way with these, feel free to put your choices on the three poll questions published.
First question is about the software you would be using when you would program an extensive package for online use.
Second questions, the same but when you want to create a software package to download/buy
third questions is what you would prefer knowing that the service is online based.

I know, I know.... there's probably much more involved in this than what I said but just spit it all out and I'll even update the poll answers with any other languages you might think are worth looking into.

To finish this, I'm either thinking to learn the language myself but I also realize that when I really want to do this, I'll hardly be specialized enough to create something like this, so I'll need help.
Still, always good to have some basic knowledge.

The software itself will be pretty complicated, involving Word Processing, charting and maths and need to be able to export to Office products.

Bet I scared all of you away now

Hey, thanks anyway and I'm really curious for the answers
MD

[Xairbusdriver]

Add Objective C and the PHP/SQL combo and I'll vote.

Seriously, you may find that some parts of this plan wold best be done in one language while others in a different language.

For now, a pencil and paper will do fine. Figure out what does what and where the effects will be. Simple box drawings will do. Refine until you can describe it to a stranger. By then, you'll have a better understanding of the problems that might be involved and you can let the programmer figure out how to make the code work, hopefully with standards that will enable new features to be added.

Lastly, I'd suggest a totally web-based solution since a 24/7 connection is becoming so common. Storage of data on the users machine is great but even that can be done with basic calls to the OS, no client app needed.

[Paddy]

Marcel, I find it pretty difficult to pick programming languages in this poll, because I think that it will depend largely on exactly what you're doing. Once you get that all mapped out, talk to a programmer about the most straightforward way of doing it. As for the other options - online presumably is platform-agnostic (if done properly) so I'd go with that. Just make sure there is no proprietary M$ stuff in it!

[Mrious_be]

Good point Paddy and Jim
But it's been drawn on paper and using an outliner to 'glue' it all together (although I'm longing for a better one, Omni Outliner will be good but it's not free and for the moment don't want to invest in it).
I have a basic idea of main menus and what it should do/perform but still need to work out the best of it.

I guess, in a way I am trying to find out if you can program a piece of software that is fairly complex for the internet (like let's say in PHP or Flash programming).
In a way I would prefer Flash since it's easy for everyone to keep that up to date, and Flash is equal in all browsers, where other languages might work (or not) depending on a variety of factors of which most I probably don't even know.
But hey, that's my logic thinking and it's probably not going to be like that in the actual programming world.

[Mayo]

None Of The Above...

1GL gets my vote.

[MamaMoose]

Marcel,

I find it difficult to answer your question because programming is partly an art form and what language you use is a matter of taste as what the program requires. So you will get tons of arguments and disagreements (which can be done if presented civilly). In my case, I started in very machine languages - binary, bi-quinary, etc. Then moved to the original Basic assembly code.  Finally, I started using Algol and Fortran. So, even though I have written more than 600,00 line of code in  my day (55 years). my thoughts would be totally useless to you.

One thing I do know is that it helps tremendously to flow chart your software. Doing so, depending on detail, will give you some idea of your program's complexity, what transfer statements are required, and will give you a key to what your program's modules will look like. Modular programming helps reduce complexity and aids significantly in debugging. My guess is outlining will serve the same purpose.

One other important thing is that I feel  one should one learn a modern programming language and stick with it. Years ago, I had so may machine-dependent assembly language stuck in my head, that I got totally confused and made lots of "unforced" errors.

Best of luck,

MamaMoose aka Tom

[Mrious_be]

Thanks for that one Tom :)You mentioned 'flow charts'...Is that something like using an outliner program or is it different?I'm actually trying to find something where I can 'outline' my ideas and I have an account online for a very basic one.However, if creating flow charts uses different software, is there anything usable out there?Or are you really talking about the pen and paper :)As stated before, I'm doing the pen and paper but in my case (maybe because I'm a designer) my head has all the images so I just have to get it down in Illustrator for basic lay-out.I do take notes, and create routes and note down software behavior or however you want to call it but I do loose track between all those papers.I need something to organize without having to write it over and over again on another piece of paper (because the rest of the page has become useless because of scribbling and errors or non usable remarks.

QUOTE(Mayo @ Jul 16 2009, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

None Of The Above...1GL gets my vote.

Hi Mayo,1GL... is that for online programming or software packages?
By the way everyone, I added Flash Programming (Actionscript) for online programming.

[Mayo]

Marcel, I was kinda teasing you (like the Dutch tend to do...)

1GL: First Generation Programming Language

First-generation programming language(1GL) is a machine-level programming language, which was written in 1s and 0s. There is no compiler or translator required and it can be understood and used by a CPU directly. The code using 1GL can run very fast and efficiently since it is directly executed by the CPU. However, machine language is somewhat more difficult to learn than higher generational programming languages, and it is far more difficult to edit if errors occur. Furthermore code portability is significantly reduced in the 1GL based code. First-generation programming language is mainly used now on very ancient computers. Machine level programming still finds a use in several areas of modern programming with the help of native-code compilers which creates machine language, usually from a higher-level language.

[Mrious_be]

QUOTE(Mayo @ Jul 16 2009, 05:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Marcel, I was kinda teasing you (like the Dutch tend to do...)

 

[Xairbusdriver]

Here's a <list of flow chart apps> for the Mac. Have no experience with any of them. OmniGraffle is highly recommended, but also expensive...

<Here's another list>. Note that there are also Windows only apps in there. Not sure how up-to-date this one is, but OmniGraffle is certainly not as expensive as I have been lead to believe. There are several on this list that are much more expensive!

[Mrious_be]

Thanks Jim

Funny that Omni comes back on the list with OmniGraffle this time, while before I found OmniOutliner to be a good outliner software but... expensive also yes.
Now if they would create a software that does both what OmniGraffle and OmniOutliner does... I'll be happy

I downloaded this one:
http://flowproject.economy-x-talk.com/index.php?doc=flow

And now trying it.
It's a demo though, I couldn't find anything decent that is freeware but maybe I shouldn't be so cheap
The full version is 23 Euro so that wouldn't be bad anyway.

thanks

[MamaMoose]

Marcel,

I am so old that my musical taste stopped growing before Elvis! I usually use pen and paper to set up a flow chart. I start with a large piece of graph paper and say put in a circle indicating start then an arrow to another box where some I/O is brought in. Then to another box where where some calculations are done (you don't put in any detail just an overview text about what the program does. Suppose you are at a decision point. I draw a diamond and at one point say, i point to a subroutine call while the other point leads to another decision diamond. Inside each decision diamond I will put an IF or Go To  saying what is the parameter is the decision basis. For example, IF IFLAG = 0 GO to A OR IF IFLAG = 1 GO TO B. Continue on breaking out groups of code, decision points, INPUT, OUTPUT, etc. until you come to an end. What all this does is set up a logic flow so you can more easily see where you might have a logical trap. It should save you hours of debugging.  I've used it several times especially where my programs exceeded 1000 lines of code. It may not be necessary for small programs.

I will try to find an example of  of one of my flow charts. XABD has some excellent for flow chart programs. You can alos use a flow chart to chart an existing program so you can again see the logical flow.

Good luck,

Tom

[Xairbusdriver]

I think you can even buy those clear plastic templates to draw the various box types, arrows, etc. A good art supply store might have them, especially one that caters to engineers/students. But you can certainly draw these shapes yourself and don't have to be constrained to any set of standard shapes. Just be consistent: make the text input look like a typewriter, the calculations box like an HP handheld calculator, the video output like a 24" iMac...OK, maybe these suggestions are a little too detailed and slightly over the top! The point is, these charts will not only help you decide what the app will do and how it will behave, but you can have a great tool to show to any reliable programmer, should you decide to hire one. And, the only cost is for paper and pencils (colors are extra, of course!).

[Mrious_be]

LOL... yeah, I think that might be the best... to find me a good programmer
I wish I had a personal contact who knows good programming but I don't.
For me, I'm not even a beginner myself and the things Tom was explaining went over my head till I read it slowly again, and it's pure logic (paths to follow).
Still, I don't know how any programming language works so all I can do for now is create a flow chart based on what I feel the program should be doing and based on the menus I would insert.
The good thing is that I have that in my head and although it's extensive what I want to achieve, the worst part is that my head keeps on working in 'design' mode
You can compare it with people using DW in the WYSIWYG mode or going for plain coding... although I design most in the coding my head still works in WYSIWYG mode.

(((sigh))) If I could only connect my brain to a BWT* it would be so much easier...

*BWT: Brain Wave Transmitter

[sandbox]

a suggestion from the edge