Author Topic: Browser performance (Classic)  (Read 3560 times)

Offline cdub1988

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« on: June 03, 2003, 04:08:20 PM »
I know that there was recently a thread on this by Bill (if memory serves) of browsers on X.

Just checking in with those who are still running Classic consistently and seeing what you're running.

Course, there's no problem if you're running on a box like Kelly's, though.  wallbash.gif

Man, I bet that tears up Classic.  biggrin.gif

Anyway, I'm running the "last" Classic build of Mozilla (that I found) on the 6500 (128MB maxed out, original processor) and I have to say that despite the slowness of the app itself moving between functions, it SCREAMS on downloads (hit 40-42K/sec last night downloading 9.2.1 over the DSL, which even techs have been surprised at since I'm well over the allowed distance from the "head-in", or whatever they call it, as compared to 2-2.5K/sec in IE wacko.gif ).

I've officially switched to it for mail and web, because IE, for some reason, is PATHETICALLY slow on downloads. So slow that I timeout most of the time.

I checked to see if it was setup to use a proxy and turned that off, but to no avail.

Tripled the memalloc. No dice.

Decided I didn't like M$ that much, so I am now a fire-breathing dragon user. thumbup.gif

How 'bout the rest of yous?

Take care.

Chris
Umm, I'm a nerd.

Offline Bill

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 4615
    • View Profile
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2003, 09:57:53 PM »
"I'm running the "last" Classic build of Mozilla"

? You lost me! ?
Two cans and a string powered by a big mouth

Offline krissel

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 14735
    • View Profile
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2003, 12:06:19 AM »
Mozilla.org is only developing for X now.


A Techsurvivors founder

Offline kelly

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 17035
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2003, 08:24:33 AM »
Chris. You may gain something from the old IE Fake Proxy Tip. Or not. smile.gif


"Choose Preferences, and click on the Proxies Tab.  In there, Enable the  proxy settings, and type in junk, like CYA.com, port 99, a fake user and  fake password, and a direct connect site.  

We aren't going to actually use a proxy, we just want to create a dummy  preference.  Click OK, and it's saved.  Now go back to Preferences, and  Disable the proxy.  

You now have the 200% speedup.  

The reason it speeds up is because IE needs a default proxy, even if it  isn't being used.  Before you do this operation, you have no default, and  it gets errors instead."


http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/archives/dec99/120799.html
kelly
Veteran SuperUser

Offline cdub1988

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2003, 08:33:28 AM »
Yeah, what Krissel said.

I understand from the industry and "forward-progress" train of thought, but I'm still not able to run X and don't know that I'll have the hardware in the near future.

FWIW, I think it really stinks that there is a "forced" hardware upgrade there.

Oh well, I guess there's always Yellow Dog, Mandrake or Debian...........

I was just wondering how many were really using Classic and if so, what browser.

It really does cruise if you can get over the latency between mouse clicks on the older hardware (which I've consequently gotten quite used to, since that's my only choice at this point).

The downloads it does have been at outstanding speeds for the connection we have. clap.gif

Take care, Kris and Bill.   biggrin.gif

Chris
Umm, I'm a nerd.

Offline cdub1988

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2003, 08:43:53 AM »
Kelly -

The weird thing is that the default preference setting was that IE was looking to a proxy for all traffic, so I guess I am confused as to the difference, unless it's just the matter of IE using the fake domain and then bypassing trying to use it immediately since it doesn't exist (perhaps a proxy integrity check?)?

Regardless, I'm quite satisfied with Mozilla. Guess I'm just fed up with Microsoft. wink.gif

I'm actually getting to the point where I think I'm going to backup all my stuff to another system and wipe the drive and install Linux. That way I can run Mac-on-Linux for whatever Mac needs I have, and I don't have to lose out on the "newest" software. I can run it on my existing hardware and it's mostly open source, like much of the stuff for X.  clap.gif

Take care and thanks for the suggestions.

By the way, how's that new box, Kelly?

Chris
Umm, I'm a nerd.

Offline kelly

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 17035
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2003, 08:51:34 AM »
I'm very happy with it Chris. smile.gif

Even if it is nearly Year Old Technology. wink.gif
kelly
Veteran SuperUser

Offline cdub1988

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2003, 08:59:51 AM »
QUOTE(kelly @ Jun 4 2003, 8:51 AM)
Even if it is nearly Year Old Technology. wink.gif

It's a tough job, huh?  biggrin.gif

Take care. thanx.gif

Chris
Umm, I'm a nerd.

Offline krissel

  • Administrator
  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 14735
    • View Profile
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2003, 07:17:13 PM »
Unfortunately that proxy fix was for IE 4.5, it was "fixed" in later versions.

Chris, I never really answered your original question about browser speed in classic OS 9.

I use IE mostly but also run Mozilla and Netscape 7. I do notice the latter two to be a bit quicker on some sites but occasionally slower than IE. The difference may be 15-20 percent in time. That sounds like a lot but if you are talking about either 25 seconds or 30 seconds to load a site, the extra 5 seconds is not that noticeable.

If the mozilla based browsers supported my mouse completely and css as well, I'd probably do the switch for a default.

As for general download speeds, I'm stuck with 32 at best due to the phone line between my home and the server. I'm over 4 miles away which precludes getting anything better.

Here is the definitive read on 56k line speed/modems.   smile.gif


A Techsurvivors founder

Offline Epaminondas

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1247
    • View Profile
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2003, 10:00:04 PM »
Chris wrote:

<< I know that there was recently a thread on this by Bill (if memory serves) of browsers on X.

Just checking in with those who are still running Classic consistently and seeing what you're running.  >>


Chris,

With each new iteration of browsers, your browsing experience on an older Mac will become slower and slower and slower . . .

My experience with Mac browsers on an ol' Mac running MacOS 8.6:

(1) Netscape 4.7.x is the slowest of the bunch. It is ridiculous. Don't even think it.

(2) iCab is small, light, nimble, and ideologically perfect.  At least give it a try:  

www.icab.de

Unfortunately, the last few versions I tried crashed so much as to be unusable for me. I found earlier versions to be more stable, but they are no longer available.

Maybe the developer has gotten his act together by now - it has been a while.  He was only an email away . . .

You might want to try it - maybe you'll get lucky.

(3)  I fiddled around with Opera.  Can't tell you why I didn't stay with it.  I just didn't.

(4) IE 5.1.6 is slow but runs good.

(5) Mozilla 1.2 is about twice as fast as IE for me, and runs stable. I have been runnin' it for many months. I know that the Mozilla web site states that a G3 at 233 MHz is the minimum acceptable hardware for Mozilla, but I downloaded it on an older machine on a lark anyway, and it works fine - much better than IE. Plus, Mozilla can easily be set to block pop-up ads - these ads are not only an irritant, but a real time-waster. So the add-blocking speeds you up significantly.

I haven't seen a pop-up ad in weeks with the exception of the New York Times web site - it can sneak an occasional one through somehow.

Mozilla's tabbed browsing is a real blessing once you learn to "load links in background" via the Mozilla preferences.

Mozilla does take much longer than any other browser to load - I get up and do something else while it is loading. Once loaded, however, it's speed beats IE and old Netscape hands down.
_________________________________________________________________

Chris wrote:

<< I understand from the industry and "forward-progress" train of thought, but I'm still not able to run X and don't know that I'll have the hardware in the near future.

FWIW, I think it really stinks that there is a "forced" hardware upgrade there.

Oh well, I guess there's always Yellow Dog, Mandrake or Debian........... >>


Yup.


I have come to a similar conclusion, but with a somewhat different twist than your own.

I bought a $200 Linux box from Walmart over the Internet.  I have both the ol' Mac runnin' MacOS 8.6 and the new $200 Linux box running Red Hat 8 on my desk, side-by-side, hooked into the same router <--> same cable modem.

A simple test - accessing the www.CNN.com web site via different browsers on the two different machines:

Ol' Mac runin' 8.6:

Microsoft IE 5.1.6 - 50 seconds

Netscape 4.7.9 - 36 seconds

Mozilla 1.2 - 22 seconds

______________________________________________________


Walmart $199 Linux box runnin' Red hat 8:

Mozilla 1.0.1 - 4 seconds


The difference between 22 seconds and 4 seconds in downloading web pages is the difference between night and day.

______________________________________________________

You can spend $1000-$2000+ getting *nix with a GUI on a new Mac.

Or you can spend $200+ getting *nix with a GUI on Linux. ;-)


With the Linux box you get no intentional obsolescence.  You do, however, get increasing market share over time, which translates into increasing mindshare. OS and OS upgrades are free. 8000+ free programs - good enough, and getting better all the time.  And you can pay - or not pay -  or help out - or not help out - any way you wish.  That freedom can affect people over time, often in good ways.  Linux is all about choice.

Wiith the new Macintosh box you get the intentional obsolescence that you are currently encountering head on. You get decreasing market share over time, which translates into decreasing mindshare.  The MacOS and major OS upgrades are gonna cost you.  Most programs are gonna cost you.

There are excellent reasons to go Mac, but there are also excellent reasons to consider alternatives.

I use both.  

The rule is: the best platform for the particular job at hand.

For more and more work over time, that platform is becoming Linux.


I originally considered $200 for the Linux box a risk.  If I didn't like it, I would be out $200.

As it has turned out, that is one of the best $200 that I have ever spent.

 (That time in Bangkok is another story).


Chris.


Happy browsing,

Epaminondas

______________________________________________________________

No need to go cold turkey in kicking the MacOS off your machine - if you have the room, I believe that Linux and the MacOS can coexist on the same hard drive.

Yellow Dog Linux is faster than Mac OSX running on the same Macintosh hardware.

A Yellow Dog Linux 3.0 Review

<< The Conclusion.

I love my Linux iBook. It really is the perfect computing platform. The marriage of such excellent hardware and a Linux distro customised to take advantage of it all make the iBook a joy to use with YellowDog. Using it for day-to-day tasks brings back a joy that I thought died with the Amiga. Everything just works. If you're someone who needs to use their computer to work, and can't tolerate software failure or hardware incompatibilities, this Yellow Dog Linux on Apple hardware fits the bill very well indeed.>>
« Last Edit: June 04, 2003, 10:06:16 PM by Epaminondas »

Offline kelly

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 17035
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2003, 10:29:14 PM »
Happy you're happy with Linux Epaminondas. smile.gif

But for sure it's not for everyone.

For those unhappy at the thought of a Command Line in OS X,

it's really not the way to go.

I just don't see Linux overtaking/replacing OS X.

It might be rational for it to do so.

Cheaper, faster on older machines, etc..

But. IMO. It's just too Geeky and labor intensive.

We can agree to disagree. smile.gif
kelly
Veteran SuperUser

Offline cdub1988

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2003, 10:41:29 AM »
Epaminondas -

I have been wanting to get YDL 3.0, but I hadn't researched the specs to see if the 6500 will handle it. I suspect it will, but X will be a challenge (at least running X). No matter, I think I will try to run Mac-on-Linux.

Kelly -

Your argument for OS X certainly is true in some cases.

In fact, the argument that you make against Linux is the same one that M$ uses in discussing the overall TCO difference between Windows and Linux (please don't take offense to my collectiveness of that to your case - I'm not saying you take sides with M$, Kelly - I'm saying that there is a given necessity for a greater level of expertise configuring and refining Linux as both a server and desktop platform.)

Thanks for the replies, all.

Take care.

Chris


These are just opinions, and mine at that. We can happily agree to disagree. biggrin.gif
Umm, I'm a nerd.

Offline kelly

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 17035
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2003, 10:51:02 AM »
Not sure what your point is Chris. smile.gif

I guess we agree that Linux requires more work than OS X or, ugh, Windows.

I'm not against Linux in any way, shape or form.

I've just fiddled with it enough to know how much work it can be.

You're a Tech. Epaminondas is obviously pretty knowledgeable.

I just don't see Mom and Pop jumping on the Linux bandwagon.

Where I do think Linux will make inroads is in the Corporate arena.

M$'s practices have pushed many to their camp.

I just don't see it becoming the choice of a lot of average users. smile.gif
kelly
Veteran SuperUser

Offline Epaminondas

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1247
    • View Profile
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2003, 12:04:33 AM »
<< We can agree to disagree >>

Agreed.

It looks to me like the Macintosh platform is the best choice for yourself and a mixed environment is the best choice for myself - and perhaps for potential Macintosh switchers, as well.  For others, an exclusive Linux environment - or Windows or whatever - may be best.

You can use all sorts of hammers to drive in a nail.


<< For those unhappy at the thought of a Command Line in OS X,

it's really not the way to go. >>

I originally thought the same.  Which was why I thought that I might be throwing my $200 away.

'Cause the command line is not really where I want to be.

But, you know -  I haven't used the Linux command line in the last three months  of running Red Hat 8 on my desktop.

No need.

Didn't need the command line to install Red Hat 8 on my PC - nor do I need the command line to set up or to use the web, do word processing, print, etc.

If you are a command line geek - hey - it is there for you in all it's geekish glory.  Great stuff, I am sure.  Go for it!

But me, well - I am but a mouse-using refugee from MacOS 8.6.

You know - point and click?

I just like pretty pictures.  :-)


I hear that there is a somewhat similar situation with MacOS X: I understand that if you want to use the command line in MacOSX, you have it, but if you do not want to use it, you do not have to.

I do not know MacOSX - but the command line in desktop Linux for me is kind of analogous to ResEdit on a Mac.

Sure, there are ResEdit hacks out there about which I have little clue.

And sure - I am no doubt missing something of the Macintosh experience by not being a ResEdit geek.

And, sure - I have used ResEdit once or twice - but only with some trepidation and with cook-book instructions at my side, feeling very un-Mac-like in the process.

But by and large, you don't really need to use ResEdit much to work your way around a Mac.

And by and large, you don't really need to use the command line much to work your way around a Linux Desktop.


Servers are, no doubt, an entirely different proposition.


I did buy "Linux for Dummies" and read through it carefully in order to be able to learn about this complicated thing called "the command line."

Then I haven't much used it.

I am almost disappointed . . .

To me, the Linux desktop has proven to be just another desktop.

No big deal.


<< I just don't see Linux overtaking/replacing OS X . . .

. . . MO. It's just too Geeky and labor intensive. >>

That is what I thought, too - before I finally tried it.

And I have waited until fairly late in the game to do so.

I figured that what I was saving in money I would be paying for in time - but I had some time to waste, so heck I figured, why not?

But the learning curve has really not been that bad.

And I would have had to undergo a similar learning curve in converting to MacOSX, anyway.

Which is kinda the whole point of using this as a good time to explore Linux instead of MacOSX.

Plus - I would have had to spend a lot bigger bucks going MacOSX.

It's something to consider.


In the balance, there have been a number of time-saving aspects to the Linux conversion, as well.

Overall speed, for one.


Over the years I have watched patiently from the sidelines as Linuxheads were predicting that "next year" would be the year of the Linux desktop - year after year after year - the magic day always being just around the corner, never to arrive.

But with Linux preloaded on compatible hardware overcoming the common hardware compatibility problems - coupled with Red Hat 8's arrival somewhere back around the beginning of the year - I think that the year of Desktop Linux has finally pretty much arrived.

Such has been my experience, anyway.

Red Hat is now up to version 9 - upon which, as I understand it, Yellow Dog Linux 3.x is based.

If you have any interest in Linux - this might just be a good time to take it out for a spin.

If not - do wave as it flies by . . .


Oh - there is one nice thing about Linux that I had not anticipated that I am finding actually makes the Linux box a bit easier to use than a Mac.

Whenever I have made a major upgrade to a newer Macintosh OS, I would be faced with also upgrading DiskWarrior, TechTool Pro, Norton Utilities, Virex, whatever word processor I might be using, possibly specialized disk drivers (FWB) - etc.  Sometimes there would be significant delays while different companies got  each of their application upgrades together.  And earlier software revisions would often have significant glitches - particularly Norton Utilities.  Sometimes these glitches were data-fatal.

This would all cause some juggling and some additional monetary outlay and a new learning curve and bulletin board research with every major MacOS upgrade.

With Linux - all the newer utilities are included with each new Linux distribution upgrade - fairly well integrated.  Generally, no huge changes in presentation or functionality.  The process is much more seamless, resulting in a much easier learning curve.

This has tremendously uncomplicated the whole Linux distribution  upgrade process.

And it is all gratis.


For people happy with MacOSX, I see no particular reason to explore Linux.

Probably just a waste of your time.

For MacOS 9'ers (or 8'ers) contemplating the whole new learning curve of MacOSX, however - taking on the whole new learning curve of Linux, instead, may make very good sense.


<< I just don't see it becoming the choice of a lot of average users. >>

I have not found desktop Linux - currently -  to be nearly as hard as either Macintosh or Microsoft skeptics might suggest.

About as hard as, say, MacOS 7.5.5 - remember the FinderHeapFix?

Or Mac OS 8.6 - remember Font Update 1.0?

Or all the optimizing we did to speed up web browsers?

I have not really run into such glitches yet in desktop Linux.


I think Linux was for geeks - but things do seem to be changing.

Of course -  you and I will likely continue to agree to disagree.


Kelly.


Best Regards,

Epaminondas

________________________________________________________________


Walmart Linux Boxen
« Last Edit: June 06, 2003, 12:25:48 AM by Epaminondas »

Offline cdub1988

  • TS Addict
  • *****
  • Posts: 1186
    • View Profile
    • http://
Browser performance (Classic)
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2003, 01:46:44 AM »
Epaminondas -

Actually, in all truth, on the LUG in KC here, these guys are pulling some insane stuff out on the desktop.

Man, these guys are all running primarily Gentoo (which I tried to install on a Bondi without success and I read the install docs), and the functionality is pretty seamless from a person's perspective who's on a dedicated connection.

I think I'm definitely leaning towards YDL 3.0.  :-)

Take care.

Chris
Umm, I'm a nerd.