Connecting to the net in the cold

[kimmer]

This is an ongoing (2 years) problem that only happens when the weather turns cold. It's weird and it's frustrating, and we're hoping someone might have some possible solutions for us.

I have an Ethernet plug in the wall near my computer and that takes me to our router (which is in the garage). Everything works fine all year long until the cold weather hits. Then I suddenly drop off the net.

We have PlugLink's that we use with our Roku, and I use one to connect the laptop when I'm in the kitchen. So when my reg. plug stopped connecting, I started using that. Since it works through the electricity of the house, I figured it might not be affected (effected?) by the cold -- and I was right. It worked for 2 days, then I could no longer connect via the PlugLink either.

At this point, we're using the same stop gap measure we've used for 2 years now: a long, long Ethernet cord that connects in Sneakers room and snakes around the door to my computer. No matter how cold it gets, this method always works.

I've tried using Network Diagnostics and usually wind up with non-helpful responses or stuck in a loop.

I've also read the help file on the iMac and tried the suggestions listed and, again, nothing works.

I don't believe it can be my settings as those work at all other times, and if the weather warms up I will suddenly be back on the net without my changing anything.

Neither Sneakers nor I have any clue what to try, or what could be causing this. We've kicked around:

• My plugs (Ethernet and electric) are on the west side the house -- and so are his, but my room is in the SW corner of the house with 2 walls exposed to the outside (west and south). His room is just north of mine, with a west exposed wall and his north wall is sheltered on the porch. So perhaps the walls, even though insulated, are allowing more cold air in my room and affecting the plugs?
• I have a lamp with the new CFL bulb that sits here within a foot of so of my iMac and my Ethernet plug as well as the electrical plug. Perhaps there is some kind of interference from the bulb? But then we wonder, why only in the cold weather?
• Across the room from my computer and plugged into a different electrical outlet on the west wall (it would still be on the same circuit) is one of the cordless phones (not the base). Could there be some kind of interference from that? Again, if this is true, why only in the winter?

At this point we are totally stumped. We'd sure like to figure this out and not have a long Ethernet cord snaking around the door frame. Any ideas?

[chriskleeman]

Hi Kim,

Is there enough slack in the cable that runs into the box where you plug in to take it out and have a look at the wiring and the connector? How cold does it get when this starts happening? This sounds suspiciously like a moisture problem of some sort, or freezing/contraction related to moisture. You live in a coastal area, yes? And the prevailing wind is westerly, yes? It's quite possible that you're getting some moisture in the wall facing the prevailing wind somehow.

And, is the Ethernet cable from the box that's giving you the trouble pulled through a wall to the garage where the router is?

Since it's hard-wired, there shouldn't be any issues with cordless phones, light bulbs, etc.

What it might be as well is a funky connection that is attracting condensation because of moisture condensing somewhere in the chain between where you plug in to the wall... perhaps...

A little more info about how the box you're plugging into might get me a little closer to a possible solution. But, there's gotta be something funky going on with a connection somewhere, I would think.

Get me a plane ticket, I'll bring all my electric tools and my multi-meter and Mac can take me fishin'!

Chris

[kimmer]

It starts happening when the night time temps hit the low 40's and lower.

Not sure about how much slack there is in the wall plug, but we can check it later this week. There aren't any visible signs of moisture, and these walls are well insulated and the outer walls were "wrapped" and the siding is insulated as well. We don't see mold anywhere. Neither the walls nor the floor feel damp, nothing in the windows. The house is new and shouldn't have "leaks", but later this week we'll open the other 2 plugs as well and see if there's anything in them that shouldn't be.

The house line comes from the garage, through the insulated attic (and the lines should all be wrapped up there), and then down the outer wall to the plug. The line that goes into the router in the garage looks fine, but it's a big job to get into the main panel box. We'll see what we can do about looking at the wires that are inside it.

I starting to think it's a conspiracy.

If we could afford a plane ticket, we'd bring you out. You and gunug.

[dolphin]

Kim, is the garage heated???  If not, the router may be getting cold enough to promote condensation. Just a thought.

[gunug]

I have known electronics to fail for any number of environmental reasons and any of these could account for it.  The "tried and true" approach is to change out one link or connection at a time if you can do this and quit when you've proven something "fixes" the problem.  I was sitting in my livingroom the night before last and the connection bars dropped on my wireless connections the laptop I was using and I could see everything between myself and the 2Wire DSL Modem/Router.  Nothing changed but it dropped two bars and then it came back and in the 12 feet or so nothing had changed.  Wacko!  Wired connections shouldn't change for any but provable mechanical reasons though!

[chriskleeman]

QUOTE(dolphin @ Oct 19 2010, 02:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kim, is the garage heated???  If not, the router may be getting cold enough to promote condensation. Just a thought.

Roy, that's an interesting thought... Kim, it does seem like there could be some condensation somewhere. A simple fix might be to go to your local Radio Shack and get a can of TV/Tuner/Contact cleaner, and spray the plugs at both ends. Take the male plugs out, spray the contact cleaner over the metal contacts, and clean the contacts with a Q-tip. Do the same with the female ends, spraying the cleaner in liberally and then again using a Q-tip. It doesn't take much dirt or corrosion to interrupt a connection. This stuff is meant to evaporate quickly, so don't be afraid to liberally dose the contacts you're cleaning. You don't have to power the router down, but you could if it makes you feel safer while cleaning the contacts at that end.

I move my musical PA gear in and out of a cold truck into warm buildings in the winter, and I periodically have to clean certain plugs that are more susceptible to moisture.

HTH,

Chris

P.S., John and I will be right out! ticket or no ticket!!!

[Texas Mac Man]

Have you considered moving to a warmer location?  

As a test, do you have a small space heater that you could locate near the router. This would raise the ambient temperature, and if the router works OK, you will know that it's the problem. Or you could wrap a small blanket or towel around the router to raise the ambient temp.

[gunug]

QUOTE

P.S., John and I will be right out!  ticket or no ticket!!!

I'd come for the fresh salmon croquettes sauteed in olive oil and balsamic vinegar! Now where is that bus schedule?  

On a more helpful note: there is also a family of products called "electronic contact enhancers" of which I have used Stabilant 22 for troublesome connections in the past:

http://ralaudio.com/stabilant-22-contact-enhancer-m-2.html

I think that it wouldn't be too expensive a "fix" to buy a can of this at a local electronic supply house (not the Shack usually because I don't think that they usually carry it) and give the connections a spray!  If it's moisture or a limited amount of corrosion this might be the ticket!

This is a fairly humorous idea where they demonstrated the electronic isolation of their product:

QUOTE

In one test we performed in public at trade shows, we ran a computer mother-board immersed in a clear plexiglas case, partially filled with Stabilant 22. This demonstration was quite effective in dispelling doubts about the efficiency of the material in NOT shorting out between adjacent contacts.

And hijinks broke out at the electronics trade show!  Just don't let your salmon swim in it!  

[Xairbusdriver]

Perhaps you mentioned it and I missed it but why is the router in the garage?

Is it connected to cable/satellite TV?

As for the ethernet cable between yours and Sneakers rooms, it doesn't take a very big hole for it to pass through...and it will always be faster than WiFi (for a few years, anyway). Or, run it up an inside wall in one room and likewise in the other. Wall boxes and covers will keep everything looking neat, of course.

[kimmer]

The garage is insulated, but not heated.

Chris and gunug, thanks for the tip on the contact cleaning stuff. We're heading to the big city tomorrow and will stop in an electronics store and pick up something.

QUOTE

Perhaps you mentioned it and I missed it but why is the router in the garage?

When the house was built, they prewired every room for telephone, TV cable, and Ethernet. The main junction box for all this is in the garage. So there are 3 sets of cables that all land in that box. When the phone company hooked up our Internet, they set up the modem and router in the garage near the box. The phone and cable always work. The Internet works fine until the cold weather arrives.

Friday we are going to move the PlugLink (this doesn’t plug into the Ethernet, it uses the house electricity) to an internal wall to see if that works vs the external wall. Also we'll take the covers off the wall sockets and check them out. I'll report back how things are going.

Kinda reminds me of the old scsi cable voodoo.  

[Paddy]

QUOTE

When the phone company hooked up our Internet, they set up the modem and router in the garage near the box.

Um...perhaps you've already been there and done that, but have you considered calling the phone company and asking them to fix this problem? They have the testing equipment etc. and should be able to isolate the cause far easier than you will. If they own the modem and/or the router, then this sort of thing is definitely their responsibility. If you own all the equipment, I'd still call them to see what, if anything they can do to help. It's also possible that there is something wrong with the router - the fact that you have problems only in cold weather makes me wonder if there isn't perhaps bad solder that shrinks when it's cold?

Have you tried switching the ethernet cables around at the router so that Sneaker's computer is running off the port that yours normally runs off? If his works when plugged into "your" port, then you can be fairly sure the router itself isn't the problem. If it doesn't work, then you have your answer.

[Xairbusdriver]

Most electronics have operating temps listed in their sometimes meager printed matter. All the ones I've seen also include humidity limits (usually defined as 'non-condensing'). I happened to be looking in the Brother booklet this morning and it says it should not be used in temps below 40°F. Perhaps the phone companies stuff is much more rugged and they now seldom do anything inside ones house, anyway. But our Cat 5 cables (we only had two sets run) have their junction in our attic. It would have to get pretty cold for a long time and without any Sun for the temps in there to get below 40°F. OTOH, I like having our printer in the same room as we are...

We don't have any Ethernet cables but it is easy to have a bad connection even with Cat 5. Likewise, when any kind of wiring is 'pulled,' it can scrape off insulation or kink if the electrician is not careful. And I assume that none of this wiring is inside conduits, that not normally used around here in houses. So, each time the wire is secured to something there is another chance of damage. I think the simplest thing is to get someone to do some continuity and signal loss testing of all those cables. Just make sure the guy knows what he is doing. If possible, get a lady to do it! 

[chriskleeman]

Condensation is condensation, pure and simple. And in a garage that goes up and down in temperature, even though it's insulated, metal surfaces will be subject to condensation. Happens in mine all the time, which is also insulated, and not heated. And if you have a concrete floor like we do, that's a constant source of moisture in a closed garage.

Paddy's idea of switching cables is a good one for sure, a very simple test. But, what you may find is that the simple "exercising" of the cable ports on the router may temporarily make it work anyway. Using a contact cleaning spray does several things. It displaces moisture, helps scrub the contacts, and in the case of the stuff gunug recommended, leave a microscopic conductive film that should help protect the contacts from more moisture.

More than likely, the telephone and ethernet lines that were pre-wired into the house just go through holes in the wall studs. They are supposed to go through a different hole than the electric wires. I doubt that there's any conduit involved. So it is indeed possible that there is some damage somewhere, but I think that the router in the garage is going to be found the source of the problem in some way; probably related to the cable ports or the cable ends themselves.  

CK

[Xairbusdriver]

"non-condensing" in this case is basically where the equipment could be dissipating heat and actually be below the dew point of then surrounding atmosphere. While the atmosphere may be at 99% humidity at the current temperature, if the dew point is very near that temperature, your equipment could actually be cooler than the dew point. In that case, water vapor could be condensing on items/surfaces in that equipment. I'm sure you've seen a glass of ice-water with condensation on the outsides. The room temperature is probably well above the dew point and the humidity level can even be quite low. But that condensation will still ruin an unprotected wood table top... Many concrete floors that are protected from the Sun (a roof but open to outside air)and in contact with the ground above the frost level (without thermal insulation around the edges), will "sweat." But that doesn't mean that there will be water dripping from the walls or ceiling.

There are two "simple" ways to prevent this:
1. Enclose the equipment in air/water-tight enclosures.
2. Heat the local atmosphere, even if it is only the area near the equipment.

There are several others means of protection, of course:
1. Move to the desert.
2. Heat/condition (dehumidify) the room.
3. Move the equipment into an environment within the specifications humidity range.

BTW, the humidity levels reported by the weather bureau is not the same as the 'non-condensing' humidity level.

I'm not saying this is your problem, but the symptoms sound like humidity problems to me. It could even be that parts of some connections or even the circuit boards have hairline cracks that only affect operations below certain temps that cause things to contract a little.

I do have one suggestion. Next time this happens, have Sneakers take a hair dryer out there and blow some warm air on the equipment...

[kimmer]

Sadly, there was a mix up back in the beginning and we own all the equipment. The phone company has already replaced (at their own expense) the modem -- and they did so simply to be nice. The router was replaced when we first started having probs and everyone told us the router was shot. I'm sure the phone company would come out - for a price. Since we have to pay an electrician to come fix the now busted kitchen lights, we'll try to trouble shoot some more.  

Tomorrow looks to be quiet, so we'll try some of the suggestions in this thread and I'll let y'all know how it goes.