Moving to 10.9! :O

[Xairbusdriver]

You do realize that each time you click a column header it changes the sorting order to the opposite of whatever it was, right? Please be seated before completing the following instruction!
What happens if you click the "Date Received" header just once?

[kimmer]

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Jun 27 2014, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You do realize that each time you click a column header it changes the sorting order to the opposite of whatever it was, right? Please be seated before completing the following instruction!
What happens if you click the "Date Received" header just once?

Just in case you're not joking ... yes, I know about changing the sorting order; and if I click once it changes the sorting order so that the newest is on top. Thus, it always opens with the newest on top. I don't want it sorted that way. I've always sorted oldest to newest. The window has always opened with the newest showing. This oddity has happened with the upgrade to 10.9.

I now have another issue. This is what I see every time I launch Mail:
[attachment=3014:newest.jpg]

No idea what this is, how it came to be, or how to get rid of it. If I'm going to have constant little issues with Mail, I'll dump 10.9 as I've not found anything new and fancy.  

[Xairbusdriver]

Yeah, I can make my version do that, also. What is the problem, exactly. If you don't have a Mailbox selected, you can't expect the app to show you a list of messages since there aren't any.

Nor do I think your travails have anything to do with 10.9 or even the newest version of Mail. I have not seen any differences in message displays in either of those two variables since at least 10.8 and whatever the oldest version of Mail I had then.

I think the basic problem is that Mail, like many apps, simply opens with exactly the same items displayed when you last closed it. I don't usually like that in an app that is normally used to create a new document in some format; I have to close one document just so I can start a new one.  But I don't see any problem with that behavior in Mail or even a browser.

If you like your messages sorted oldest first, that's OK by me. Never would have seen the benefit but you probably do, so go for it. However, I'm confused looking back at your two images in post #15. The first one has the Date sorted like you want it (revered, in my thinking). Although they are not exact duplicates with the same list showing, I would hazard a guess that the second image is with the Date sorted the way I do; the newest messages at the top. So, for my own understanding, is my hazardous assumption correct?

I'm also a little confused by the red text you added saying "Unread emails". I have to assume that if there are any unread messages, they would be above the newest one listed. But since the scroll bar is not included in the shot, I can't tell if there are more messages above the "June 22, 2013" message.

Again, when you close/quit Mail, it will open in exactly the same position with exactly the same message in exactly the same Mailbox highlighted. I don't know how long that has been the way, but I can't remember it being different.

I suspect that in a fresh install, Mail is set to sort things in descending order by Date the very first time that column is selected. Probably the same for the other columns; alphabetically, from a to Z, actually with numerals even before an "a". So, when you first opened Mail and imported your messages, they were seen by the default settings of the new version; the reverse of what you had before.

Your assignment:

1. Set the sort the way you want.
2. Select any message.
3. Quit Mail.
4. Count to ten by one.
5. Now start up Mail.
6. Tell me
A. What Mailbox is selected?
B. What message is selected.
C. How is the list sorted?

Thanks!

[kimmer]

QUOTE

Again, when you close/quit Mail, it will open in exactly the same position with exactly the same message in exactly the same Mailbox highlighted. I don't know how long that has been the way, but I can't remember it being different.

This is what Mail used to do, but it no longer exhibits this behavior. Now I have the odd window every time I launch Mail. This is new behavior to me, and I don’t like it. Since this started with the upgrade to 10.9, I’d say 10.9 had something to do with it.

Homework:
Followed steps 1-5. Then I followed steps 1-3, but iMac to sleep, but self to sleep. Self woke up, had coffee, breakfast, quiet time, eventually woke up iMac, followed step 5. Results are below and were the same each time:

A. No mailbox selected, just that odd window.
B. When I opened my originally selected mailbox, there wasn’t any message selected.
C. List sorted according to my prefs: oldest to newest, but I had to scroll down to reach newest. Previously, it was sorted oldest to newest, with newest showing and I would have had to scroll up to see oldest.

[Xairbusdriver]

No matter how you sort, Mail should not automatically select any message unless you have already done so. That's for security if the user still allows Remote images in HTML messages. However, once a message is selected, it will remain so unless another message is selected or the message is deleted or moved to another Mailbox. In that case, Mail will select the next message adjacent to the one deleted or moved. This, of course, negates the security provide by not automatically selecting messages.

Opening another Mailbox will not change the fact that a particular message in that first Mailbox is selected. As soon as that first Mailbox is reopened, you should see the selected message, even if there are newer messages that have come after that selection was made. However, if you manually move/scroll to another view of the list, that is the place that you will see next time you open that Mailbox. If you want to always see the latest messages (at either end of the list), you should scroll to that end of the list (at least for that Mailbox) before Quitting Mail. Otherwise, that Mailbox will simply open in the position it was last seen.

There may be a setting somewhere to force Mail to always open with new messages showing. I've not found it nor do I see any benefit in that action. 99.999% of the time, I am viewing/moving/deleting new messages so that location is always at the end of my list view whenever I open that Mailbox again. As far as I know, Mail and the majority of Apple's apps behave that way. It's simply what I expect when I open a previously edited document. The list of messages is, in effect, the edited 'document' Mail maintains. If I want a document to open at the beginning, I place my cursor there before closing its window or Quitting the app.

Before going to the possibly lengthy exercise of reverting to 10.8, I'd suggest doing some searching, especially at Apple's Support Community to see if this problem is seen by others. I'd suggest moving a plist but I have no idea which one it might be! Sorry I can't be more helpful with your frustrations.

[kimmer]

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Jun 28 2014, 08:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry I can't be more helpful with your frustrations.

Don't worry about it. I appreciate all your help and suggestions. I finally got the text tool to work in CS6 by selecting it and going to get a cup of coffee, working a crossword puzzle and coming back after an hour. I think it had to rebuild the font info, but not really sure. At least it now works. So that only leaves the mail issue and I'll either live with this or revert back to 10.8, or maybe I'll try Thunderbird and discover a whole new set of problems.

[Paddy]

QUOTE(kimmer @ Jun 29 2014, 01:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Jun 28 2014, 08:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry I can't be more helpful with your frustrations.

Don't worry about it. I appreciate all your help and suggestions. I finally got the text tool to work in CS6 by selecting it and going to get a cup of coffee, working a crossword puzzle and coming back after an hour. I think it had to rebuild the font info, but not really sure. At least it now works. So that only leaves the mail issue and I'll either live with this or revert back to 10.8, or maybe I'll try Thunderbird and discover a whole new set of problems.

Kimmer, I don't know why your Inbox is behaving that way - I sent myself three test emails (since I'd already read all 12 of this morning's emails) and then flipped the view from newest first (which I, like Jim, prefer) to oldest first, and then did various things like shut down mail and reopen it and go to a different email inbox etc. and every time:

1. the unopened new mail showed in the window, even when it was with the (ahem) 11,070 old messages before them (in my defense, this inbox has 15 years of email in it, and that has been edited down, somewhat)
2. Mail reopened EXACTLY where I left it - if I selected a seldom-used inbox for a client's email before I shut down, it reopened there. Mail collects email from 14 email addresses for me, so it has lots of options, but it always behaves itself and goes to wherever I left off.

So - a couple of suggestions:

1. Repair permissions (ya never know...)
2. Shut down Mail, remove the mail preferences from the pref file (drag to desktop - don't trash just yet) and then reopen Mail, set your viewing preferences and see how it behaves as you select, quit Mail and then reopen it. ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist . I'm assuming you've already enabled the ability to see the Library (first thing I do with any Mac I set up since Apple made it invisible by default - that and "reverse" the scrolling for the mouse!)

[Xairbusdriver]

Thanks for posting Paddy, with the lack of other postings, I was ready to admit that I had screwed up Mail in my System. Good to know at least one other person sees what I do.

I had mentioned not knowing which plist file to move. Mainly because I do not have the one you mentioned (and the place I would expected it to be)! I do have an old (2/7/2012) zipped "Mail prefs" and a "com.apple.mail.plist.lockfile", however.

Just checked my wife's MBP (10.8.5) and it does not have the expected 'comm.apple.mail.plist' either!

BTW, I'm using Mail 7.3 (1878.2), Judy's is 6.6.

Usually, a "lockfile" is a copy of the last version of a current 'plist' (or maybe just a current copy). This one has the same creation date as the zipped "Mail prefs" I mentioned. I'm going to investigate the "lockfile" usage but that's a completely different topic...

[Xairbusdriver]

Started reading the latest P.E.T. edition which reminded me of your comment about the Text tool in Cssomething. I'm assuming that you were referring to the delay between the time you select the Text tool and the time the spinning pizza stops? I think the problem is squarely in Adobe's camp. You probably no they sort of invented cross-platform (sorta) computer generated fonts. So you've got to cut them a little slack when they decide to forego using Apple's (or any one else's) System font tools. At least that's my opinion, no charge. And I think you found the problem in that Adobe doesn't even try to remember what fonts you may have installed, it simply creates a list the first time you try to use the Text tool... every time you start up any of their apps that use Text. Of course, the more fonts you have installed, the longer it takes to create the same list it created yesterday... My advice is to delete all Fonts except those that Adobe installs. Resistance is futile. All your base are belong to us.*

<*>

[kimmer]

QUOTE(Paddy @ Jun 29 2014, 06:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So - a couple of suggestions:

1. Repair permissions (ya never know...)
2. Shut down Mail, remove the mail preferences from the pref file (drag to desktop - don't trash just yet) and then reopen Mail, set your viewing preferences and see how it behaves as you select, quit Mail and then reopen it. ~/Library/Preferences/com.apple.mail.plist . I'm assuming you've already enabled the ability to see the Library (first thing I do with any Mac I set up since Apple made it invisible by default - that and "reverse" the scrolling for the mouse!)

Permissions repaired. DiskUtility repaired a bunch of stuff, but nothing associated with Mail.

2. This gets complicated. I could NOT find the plist where you (and loads of others per the apple forums) suggested. I read these 2 threads:
https://discussions.apple.com/message/19112237
https://discussions.apple.com/message/21697416

and tried the following:

QUOTE

Found it! Indeed, it was in Mail's sandbox container, but it wasn't showing up in Spotlight results.
For future reference, I found it in username/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Preferences
Thanks a lot, Soehn

QUOTE

Try Library>Preferences>Application Support>Mail>OnlineAccountTypes>com.apple.updated.mailaccounts folder.

QUOTE

These files should be restored to fully recover a previous mail database (incl. settings etc.):
 
• /Application Support/Mail
• /Mail
• /Containers/com.apple.mail
• /Application Support/SyncServices/local/FSM/com.apple.mailAccountsConfiguration
 
I hope I could help others with the same problem!

Strangly, I kept finding the various files in all these places. I kept removing them. They kept reappearing in various places, and MAIL was still mucked up – until I found the 'com.apple.mail' folder and trashed it (see below). Wait, I copied it to a backup first.

QUOTE

I know this is an old thread, but maybe will help someone. In order to find the 'com.apple.mail' folder in Mountain Lion, you have to go to Library>Containers, and you should see the 'com.apple.mail' folder in there. Delete the entire folder, launch your Mail app, and your Mail app should create a new 'com.apple.mail' folder and function properly again.
 
I'm running 10.8.3, and it seems like it has some kind of bug that is knocking all of these programs for a loop, including iPhoto and iWork, where preferences have to be trashed in order for the app to work again.
 
Hope that helps.

Anyhow, I was finally back to the default prefs in Apple. So I spent time resetting the prefs to suit me. I quit MAIL. Waited a bit and relaunched and I'm now back to Apple's default prefs for mail:

http://spatulagraphics.com/images/mailNOW.jpg

I reset prefs, rebooted my iMac, relaunched MAIL and it's back to Apple's default prefs.

I rebooted my iMac into the admin acct, ran diskutility again, nothing wrong with anything, back to my user log-in, launched MAIL, and reset my prefs again. Quit mail, relaunched and ... back to default prefs.   I have no clue what to try, what's wrong, or anything else. I do know that I am now so annoyed that I'll restore my 10.8 and forget all this. But I can't do that until Wednesday!

Oh well. Maybe I'll find a solution before then.

Edited to add: one new item: unread messages are no longer bolded.

PS: xABD ... I agree with your comments on Adobe and fonts. When I launched CS6 just a bit ago, I was presented with a window that said "rebuilding text tool". Now the all your base video ... that's hysterical!!!!!!!! Thanks for the laugh.

[Paddy]

QUOTE(kimmer)

Anyhow, I was finally back to the default prefs in Apple. So I spent time resetting the prefs to suit me. I quit MAIL. Waited a bit and relaunched and I'm now back to Apple's default prefs for mail:

http://spatulagraphics.com/images/mailNOW.jpg

I reset prefs, rebooted my iMac, relaunched MAIL and it's back to Apple's default prefs.

I rebooted my iMac into the admin acct, ran diskutility again, nothing wrong with anything, back to my user log-in, launched MAIL, and reset my prefs again. Quit mail, relaunched and ... back to default prefs.   I have no clue what to try, what's wrong, or anything else. I do know that I am now so annoyed that I'll restore my 10.8 and forget all this. But I can't do that until Wednesday!

Oh well. Maybe I'll find a solution before then.

Edited to add: one new item: unread messages are no longer bolded.

PS: xABD ... I agree with your comments on Adobe and fonts. When I launched CS6 just a bit ago, I was presented with a window that said "rebuilding text tool". Now the all your base video ... that's hysterical!!!!!!!! Thanks for the laugh.

Ok - some more digging - and it's possible that deleting the .plist file doesn't actually do what you'd expect. See: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1930395...-10-9-mavericks

And more discussion of the same issues: http://manytricks.com/blog/?p=3049

Kimmer, you could try to find the Mail prefs in your 10.8 backup and then put them wherever you've found them in 10.9, following the instructions in the second link above. I'm now not sure what .plist is controlling my Mail prefs - I've got things where you found them and a com.apple.mail.plist file in the normal prefs location in my user library. (?) Anyway, mine is working so I'm not going to mess around with it just to figure that out!

***Another thing to try, which a few people on the Apple forums have suggested: rebuilding your mailboxes. I don't know why this would work, but apparently it does for people having trouble getting their mail to open with the new messages where they want them to be. Worth a try.

[Xairbusdriver]

Thanks for reminding me about the "Container" directory! Yep, that's where my (any user) plists are in Mavericks.

So, since you removed that folder and rebooted, is the creation date different? Does the Modified date/time show you've made changes at the approximate time you made them? BTW, you can simply change the name of a plist file (and enter your password when asked) instead of even moving it. The file names are hard-coded. So if a needed plist is not found, the OS simply creates a default one.

Gotta go pick up SWMBO on her return flight from DC...

BTW, Spotlight is useless for anything in the System area. matter of fact, I've not yet found a use for it, anywhere. Oh well, YMMV.

[kimmer]

QUOTE(Paddy @ Jun 29 2014, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kimmer, you could try to find the Mail prefs in your 10.8 backup and then put them wherever you've found them in 10.9, following the instructions in the second link above. I'm now not sure what .plist is controlling my Mail prefs - I've got things where you found them and a com.apple.mail.plist file in the normal prefs location in my user library. (?) Anyway, mine is working so I'm not going to mess around with it just to figure that out!

  and   by the thousands! It took almost 3 hours as I had to start off my external 10.8 backup, reschedule the SuperDuper backup so it wouldn't take place, then I had to wait until TM did a complete backup ...   ... finally I was able to get the uncorrupted file, move it to my usb stick, restart, move the file following the instructions, and BINGO! Mail now functions as it once did. Color me happy.

FTR, I tried rebuilding the mailboxes—twice. Didn't do anything but waste my time. haha

[Xairbusdriver]

Once again, Paddy finds the solution! Whodathunk!! And I'm so glad that our left-coast Admin is happy! I'm sure there's at least one other "Mac" who is also glad of that!!!    

If momma ain't happy...