Author Topic: E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat  (Read 3693 times)

Offline jcarter

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« on: May 08, 2007, 02:29:10 PM »
If any of you have boats and other small engines like lawnmowers, generators, log splitters, trimmers, and more,,,,
It might be a good thing to read this link, we have had a problem with this, and have not seen a really good explanation until we found this yesterday.
http://www.solpower.com/soltron/soltrontechtalk.asp
Jane

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 08:56:49 PM »
Years ago, when they started selling "cleaner" gas here (with MTBE, I think - is that the ethanol blend?) we were warned about small engines burning the stuff. My brother-in-law pooh-phoos it and buys his gas locally. I have always driven to  a county where they don't use the "special blend" to fill my gas can. It's 25 miles one way, because I can't just go to the next county. I don't know if I'm being too cautious, but my old lawn mower lasted 21 years...
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Al

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 09:34:11 PM »
Yeah, Jane, fishermen here have had a real hard time regarding Ethonal and thier fuel injection systems being completely trashed.

Since E10 is basically a solvent, it will clear any sludge in your gas tanks and that led to a lot of gum in the motors.

My friend had this happen cause of his aging gas tank.  The motor had to be cleaned thoroughly and then a new gas tank was installed.  All is now all better and he can bring us fish again.  biggrin.gif
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 09:35:17 PM by Al »
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Offline Epaminondas

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 10:33:18 PM »
Bertrams have been among the hardest hit.

_____________________________________


Locally, we only buy non-ethanol gasoline. How can you tell? By local law, the pumps must be labeled if ethanol is used.

And we ask.

Neither the Citgo stations nor the BP stations in town carry ethanol - so we buy there.  The other stations in town carry ethanol gasoline - so we do not buy there.

Vote with your wallet.

We also keep the tank fairly well filled up to avoid the problem of water in the gasoline secondary to condensation.

And we toss some fuel injector cleaner in with the gasoline periodically.


I have never heard one mechanic say one good thing about ethanol gasoline.  I have heard harsh neagtive comments, however.


Citgo and BP stations in other places may or may not carry ethanol gas - I dunno for sure.  But they don't here.


From where we sit, ethanol gasoline looks like an engineering mistake - built on a foundation of political coalitions.

While we do understand the politics involved - and may even be sympathetic to some of it - we aren't dumb enough to actually use the stuff, ourselves.

Kinda like fluorescent lighting.


And our preferred method of boating?

Sailing.

Of course.


Best regards,

Epaminondas
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 10:35:03 PM by Epaminondas »

Offline sandbox

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 11:54:16 PM »
Both residents and visitors to S. Dakota have been burning E85 for years. I put it in my Harley without a problem, though some folks with higher compression motors need to add a octane booster, they would need the same booster with regular 86 octane petroleum based fuel. It does burn cleaner and it does eat away at certain rubber fuel lines. It also dissolves lacquer, a byproduct of petrol. I have run boats, mowers, and loaders on E85 without issue but I’m a motorhead that can make carburetion adjustments if needed and who tends to keep a motor tuned and maintained.



QUOTE
Today, South Dakota is at the forefront of the emerging biofuels industry. South Dakota boasts 13 ethanol plants with three more plants in development stages and over 50 E85 pumps throughout the state. Percentage wise South Dakota consumes over half of it’s corn production for ethanol by consuming over 250 million bushels and ranks number four in ethanol production with nearly one billion gallons of capacity expected by 2008. Additionally, there are more than 14,000 South Dakotans invested in some form of ethanol production making us the leading state in farmer ownership and equity. For South Dakota, ethanol has created economic investment, rural and community development, and unparalleled opportunities for agriculture.

South Dakota Corn Growers are here today to advocate for a national energy policy that continues to support ethanol expansion and development and create increased opportunities for South Dakota farmers. As we look towards the future of energy development in this country, it is important farmers and agriculture play a key role. From corn-based ethanol to the potential of cellulosic fuels, corn will remain a vital feedstock in growing our energy independence.

Currently, there are 115 ethanol plants in operation with nearly 6 billion gallons of capacity and 5 billion gallons of additional capacity under construction or undergoing expansion. Our current Federal energy policy, in part, is responsible for the growth of this once cottage industry into a $23.1 billion fuels market, displacing nearly 5% of petroleum consumption and creating over 150,000 jobs in rural America.

http://agriculture.senate.gov/Hearings/hea...;witnessId=6225
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 11:54:48 PM by sandbox »

Offline jcarter

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2007, 06:26:46 AM »
Very interesting that you can still buy non E fuel, we cannot find it anywhere in MA any more, not even the marinas.
 My brother's sailboat has a diesel in it, so thats OK.  
Our outboard is old, so we use the gas we need, then we drain the system after use, as we dont use it as often as before, we kayak and canoe most of the time now.  We also run all our other small engines out of fuel before they get put into the shed, even for a week!
OH, yes indeed, this E-10 is certainly political.  I am wondering how much trouble its caused already for small engines, our local lawnmower repair guy is just inundated with repairs.  
We have bought the additives and will follow the instructions for that, and hope it does the job.  This could end up to be a very expensive ordeal.
Our marina people were very very upset when they learned that they couldnt have some regular gas for people with older boats. Ah, politics, its getting so invasive.
Jane

Offline tacit

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2007, 02:23:36 PM »
QUOTE(jcarter @ May 9 2007, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OH, yes indeed, this E-10 is certainly political.  I am wondering how much trouble its caused already for small engines, our local lawnmower repair guy is just inundated with repairs.


To be fair, it's not the fault of the ethanol fuel. It's the fault of all the crud and gunk that builds up in a gas tank when you use regular petroleum fuel. Normal gasoline is awful, dirty stuff that leaves behind all kinds of garbage in your fuel tank and engine--which then gets dissolved by cleaner-burning ethanol fuel. So if you're going to blame something for the engine problem, blame the old gasoline...  smile.gif
A whole lot about me: www.xeromag.com/franklin.html

Offline jcarter

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2007, 04:12:56 PM »
The ethanol absorbs water, which is a problem.  And it also effects fiberglass fuel tanks, but the metal and plastic ones are OK.
And yes, gasoline can be full of impurities, from what I read.  When it gets old sitting in your fuel tanks, it can be a real problem. Especially around here, when the boating season lasts only part of the year.
So we know that we have to be very careful of our little engines and what we put into them.  
One of our neighbours has just finished rebuilding his inboard V8, and he told my husband to buy some Coleman Lantern fuel, as that is what we used to call "white gas" and mix stabilizer in it and run your little engines(all and any of them) on this just before the season ends. Put them away with having run this clean mixture for the last while.
Does this sound good?
Jane

Offline sandbox

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2007, 11:26:36 PM »
Jane I use Sta-Bil http://www.goldeagle.com/sta-bil/index.htm when storing motors.
I guess they use E-10 in your area to move it in the same old pipes that's used for petrol. The water issue will corrode steel too.

It's not a perfect solution, nor is the use of corn to make this fuel, but it's a beginning on a long road to becoming self sufficient.

If you do your homework and retrofit your vehicles to the new fuels all will be swell. wink.gif
« Last Edit: May 09, 2007, 11:27:07 PM by sandbox »

Offline krissel

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2007, 11:45:12 PM »
My Dad got me started on using that Sta-bil that SB mentions. I put it in my snowblower and lawn mower if they have any gas left in them at the end of the season and I can't run them dry.

Just started up the mower today (after getting a new sparkplug) and she fired right up.

Of course I then spent the next hour trying to get the side cowling off so I could get to the carburetor in order to adjust the mixture.... wallbash.gif


But all's well... that get's the lawn cut ... and it was.  smile.gif
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 01:04:57 AM by krissel »


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Offline krissel

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« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2007, 12:55:21 AM »
QUOTE(Gregg @ May 8 2007, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Years ago, when they started selling "cleaner" gas here (with MTBE, I think - is that the ethanol blend?)


No, MTBE was the first oxygenator used in gasoline to replace lead. It is being phased out and is nearly gone from most areas now. It's release into the environment has poisoned many water supplies, a problem that was brought up when it was originally suggested as the answer to the removal of lead. The use of ethanol is supposed to replace MTBE in purpose.

This pdf from early 2006 describes how the switchover was planned. I suspect a lot ot the price spikes of last summer could be based on that change. Funny that I don't recall reading about any of this in the news last year. Good read.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petrole...06/mtbe2006.pdf

A few quotes from the pdf:

QUOTE
In 2005, a number of petroleum companies announced their intent to remove methyl  tertiary-butyl ether (MTBE) from their gasoline in 2006.  Companies’ decisions to  eliminate MTBE have been driven by State bans due to water contamination concerns,  continuing liability exposure from adding MTBE to gasoline, and perceived potential for  increased liability exposure due to the elimination of the oxygen content requirement for  reformulated gasoline (RFG) included in the Energy Policy Act of 2005.  EIA’s informal  discussions with a number of suppliers indicate that most of the industry is trying to  move away from MTBE before the 2006 summer driving season.      

Currently, the largest use of MTBE is in RFG consumed on the East Coast outside of  New York and Connecticut (Figure 1) and in Texas. 1  The other RFG areas in the  Midwest and California have already moved from MTBE to ethanol.  Most companies  eliminating MTBE in the short-run will blend ethanol into the gasoline to help replace the  octane and clean-burning properties of MTBE.  The rapid switch from MTBE to ethanol  could have several impacts on the market that serve to increase the potential for supply  dislocations and subsequent price volatility on a local basis.  These impacts stem mainly  from:  •  Net loss of gasoline production capacity  •  Tight ethanol market, limited in the short-run by ethanol-production capacity and  transportation capability to move increased volumes to areas of demand  •  Limited resources and permitting issues hampering gasoline suppliers abilities to  quickly get terminal facilities in place to store and blend ethanol  •  Loss of import supply sources that cannot deliver MTBE-free product, or that  cannot produce the high-quality blendstock needed to combine with ethanol  

The different properties between MTBE and ethanol affect not only production, but  distribution and storage of gasoline as well.  Ethanol-blended gasoline cannot be  intermingled with other gasolines during the summer months, 2 and ethanol, unlike  MTBE, must be transported and stored separately from the base gasoline mixture to  which it is added until the last step in the distribution chain. 3  Many areas of the  distribution system cannot handle additional products without further investments.


QUOTE
The increased volumes of ethanol to be used in RFG during the first half of 2006, and  perhaps for the entire year, will not be met by increased domestic ethanol production  alone.  Some of the increased use of ethanol in RFG will be met by increased domestic  production, some by increased imports from areas like Brazil, and the remainder by  taking ethanol currently used in conventional gasoline in the Midwest and shipping  it to  the East Coast and Texas for RFG blending.  Removing ethanol from conventional  gasoline reduces conventional gasoline volumes, but replacing lost conventional gasoline  is easier than replacing lost RFG volumes.


I found it interesting that we had to import ethanol.

QUOTE
At this time, little RFG is expected to be produced without ethanol, although oxygenates  like ethanol are no longer required.  Replacing the octane previously provided by MTBE  is difficult, and, while ethanol is not as clean-burning as MTBE, it is a cleaner component  than most petroleum components, so it helps refiners to meet their fuel emission requirements.


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Offline jcarter

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« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2007, 07:21:50 AM »
Thats a great read!  Thank you for sending that link, will pass it on to my husband.
So far we havent had a problem with any of our engines, and we have used the stabilizers in the past and have just purchased the enzyme stuff to use in the E-10.

There is a lot of 'do this, do that, dont do this, dont do that' and I sure can see that this whole situation is going to end up more complex and far more expensive than expected.
 Just the fact that nothing can be mixed or use the same pipelines is another unexpected problem, why cant these government agencies study things or understand what the consequences might be, before they go ahead and mandate changes that are going to create more problems.  No wonder our gas prices are soaring.

My husband says when you mix politics and science we always end up with some sort of a mess. And it takes years to correct a lot of these things and at a lot of expense.
Anyway, thank you for the link, this problem is deeper than I ever thought.
How about a diesel lawnmower?  I will buy it even if its too heavy to push!
Jane

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2007, 07:38:24 AM »
QUOTE(jcarter @ May 9 2007, 04:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And yes, gasoline can be full of impurities, from what I read.  When it gets old sitting in your fuel tanks, it can be a real problem.

So that's why the owner's manuals of small engine mowers, etc. always say not to save your gas over the off season! I always wondered what the reason for that was. Now I know!


QUOTE(krissel @ May 10 2007, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, MTBE was the first oxygenator used in gasoline to replace lead. It is being phased out and is nearly gone from most areas now. It's release into the environment has poisoned many water supplies, a problem that was brought up when it was originally suggested as the answer to the removal of lead. The use of ethanol is supposed to replace MTBE in purpose.

Now that you mention it, I remember the controversy around here. I've never heard that MTBE was being phased out. You miss things when you go on vacation...
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline bil207

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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2007, 08:14:25 AM »
Mercury Marine has a good bit of info. on Ethenol, it's use and what precautions that may have to be taken here.
Bill

Offline jcarter

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E-10 baaaaddddd for your boat
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2007, 08:36:01 AM »
Good link, thanks, Our outboard is a Mercury.
Jane