Author Topic: Looking to upgrade... (Read 6068 times)

Jay · « **on:** December 09, 2003, 03:46:15 PM »

Hello everyone!
I definitly can not afford a G5 now, and probably wont be able to for a loooong time. However, I think I should be able to afford upgrading my present G4 350mhz. I am looking to upgrade the video card and processor speed.

Here is what I currently have.
350mhz AGP graphics
ATY Rage 128 Pro video card with 16mb memory
704mb ram (which I think I may max out to 1.5gb)

Some questions... From what I understand, some memory only works with certain processors. If I upgrade my processor, will I have to buy all new ram. Does my memory only work with my current 350mhz? 128mb of my memory is from the factory. the rest I installed myself a couple years back.

Also, getting a new video card will make my computer faster, right? For like photoshop, illustrator, quark, etc... and the occasional game

one final question a little off this topic, but just came to me.. Should I bother getting quark for OS X? I have the os 9 version... Is it worth it? Or is InDesign being used more now in the industry? I hate having to go into classic, and Quark is the only thing that I have left in classic i need.

Thank you so much!!!

Jay

Scott · « **Reply #1 on:** December 09, 2003, 04:45:36 PM »

I can't answer your RAM issue with any kind of conviction so I'll leave that to someone else.

A new video card will help with screen redraw and window opening. Be aware that curently Panther has issues with Sawtooth G4s and non-stock video cards (screens go blank after the Panther install). Reports say that the issues should be corrected in 10.3.2. Under OS10.2.8 a lot of newer video cards will allow Quartz Extreme to activate which will increase speed in terms of window opening and screen redraw as well.

As for Xpress 6, for my money, it's not worth it. There are no new features. Basically it's a port of Xpress5 to OSX. Hardly worth the money they want for it. Indesign 3 (CS) has many advantages over Xpress. The ability to flawlessly open Xprss documents is a big one. Also native support for photoshop and Illustrator files. Yes, you can use .psd nad .ai files and import them right into ID. Not to mention native support for Photoshop transparency. The professionals in my circuit are all making the switch to ID due to these features. It would be safe to speak with your print providers and ask how they feel about Indesign files. In print shops with older RIP software Xpress may still be the desired format.

Jay · « **Reply #2 on:** December 09, 2003, 09:05:51 PM »

Thanks Scott

I do not have Panther yet, however I was planning on getting that as part of my upgrade. If I get a new video card I will just stick with 10.2.8 until there is the fix for Panther.

Thanks again. Good info!
Jay

Paddy · « **Reply #3 on:** December 09, 2003, 10:26:09 PM »

Jay, I put a Sonnet 1 GHz upgrade in my G4 Sawtooth last February, and have been very happy with the upgrade. Well worth it. They're about $350 at OWC now. For $50 more, you can get 1.25 GHz and for another $35 on top of that (more or less) you can get 1.4 GHz. OWC's own Mercury Extreme, Sonnet, Giga Designs & PowerLogix are all offered. When I bought my upgrade, the PowerLogix accelerators were still causing sleep problems in OS X, so I avoided them. You should check the database at http://www.xlr8yourmac.com to narrow down the choices. Problems change as OS's and accelerator models change.

I had absolutely no problem with my RAM, which certainly isn't "matched" - it's a motley assortment acquired gradually. Never even occurred to me that it could be a problem (did you read about this somewhere?) Good (as in lifetime warranty from a reputable dealer) PC100 RAM is PC100 RAM - if it meets the PC100 spec, it should work with any processor designed to go in these machines.

I haven't upgraded the video card - I'd like to, but I've spent a lot on this machine over the years (it has 1.1GB of RAM, a SCSI card for my old scanner, just got a USB 2.0 card, has a 75GB & a 120GB drive...new Apple keyboard, new wireless M$ mouse...enough!) and if I'm ever going to get a G5, sooner or later I've got to stop putting money into this G4. Not that I'm planning on a G5 any time soon. Love to get one, but a certain other person in the household is next in line for an upgrade...

Anyway, upgrading the Sawtooth Macs is certainly worthwhile, and will make them work a LOT better with OS X. No, they don't magically morph into G5's, but you'll certainly spend less time in the Photoshop waiting room!!

Epaminondas · « **Reply #4 on:** December 10, 2003, 12:12:49 AM »

<< Also, getting a new video card will make my computer faster, right? For like photoshop, illustrator, quark, etc... and the occasional game >>

Significantly faster.

Some report the effect of replacing a 16MB ATI Rage 128 Video card with a 32MB ATI Radeon card as being much more impressive than the effect of upgrading their processor - at considerably lesser cost.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=135065

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=25642

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/quartzextreme/

http://www.apple.com/macosx/pdfs/Quartz_TB.pdf
______________________________________________________

<< From what I understand, some memory only works with certain processors. If I upgrade my processor, will I have to buy all new ram. Does my memory only work with my current 350mhz? 128mb of my memory is from the factory. the rest I installed myself a couple years back. >>

<< PC100 RAM is PC100 RAM - if it meets the PC100 spec, it should work with any processor designed to go in these machines. >>

Your RAM will likely be fine.

Just an FYI:

PC 100 does differ considerably - CAS2 vs. CAS3, speeds of 10ns, 8ns, and 7.5ns. Not to mention differences in quality between that produced by different manufacturers. Usually PC133 RAM is backwards compatible into PC100 machines - but not always.

Where does all this actually come into play? Well - RAM is one of the first places you troubleshoot the G3 B&Ws. Their memory controller does not handle RAM of different speeds gracefully - i.e., it is generally best not to mix and match 10ns and 8ns RAM in a B&W. Unfortunately Apple actually shipped most or all (depending on your source of information) of the B&Ws with 10ns RAM, even though the Apple spec for those machines was for 8ns - there just wasn't enough 8ns RAM around at the time. This has led to lotsa problems over the years for B&W owners as they mixed this original 10ns RAM with later 8ns RAM.

Additionally, the *nix operating systems stress RAM. RAM that muddles through fine under MacOS 8.5.1-9.2.2 may fail miserably under MacOS X. Various such failures have been reported and are often cleared up completely by swapping out RAM.

*nix is the ultimate RAM tester - it is far more effective at bringing RAM to it's knees than any software RAM tester.

Of course, there are a lot of other troubleshooting possibilities besides RAM when upgrading to a *nix OS goes bad.

In the B&Ws, www.Crucial.com 8ns or better CAS 2 RAM has proven to be pretty reliable.

The above may have been where you heard of problems mixing and matching various types of RAM.

Happily, I have not heard of these sort of RAM problems being an issue in the Sawtooths.

The Sawtooths were the next evolutionary step after the B&Ws (and the Yikes G4s) and Apple had learned it's lesson by the time your machine came along.

So your current RAM will likely be just fine.

Just deal with your RAM in the course of ordinary troubleshooting if you have a problem.

<< DIMM First Aid >> - a free program you can download off of MacUpdate or VersionTracker - will tell you what kind of RAM you have on board. As an example <<PC100-222 >> refers to PC100 CAS2 RAM.

<<TestMemory>> can also be downloaded for free at these sites - it is a minimal RAM test, but possibly better than nothing.

There are some others out there.

TechTool Pro 2.x and 3.x ($20-100, depending on the deal) include a software RAM tester that you can run overnight - or over weeks or months if you are so inclined. I dunno about TechTool Pro 4.x - I haven't seen my copy, yet, but a RAM tester is probably in there, somewhere.

Your Sawtooth is a fine machine.

The G3 B&W PCI bus is limited to around 53 MB/sec - I believe the Sawtooth can handle over 200 MB/sec. To the extent that your computing is disk/speed intensive, SoftRAID 3.x and a nice fast RAID 0 striped disk array can work out very nicely in a Sawtooth.

Appropriate video card upgrade, processor upgrade, lotsa RAM, MacOS 10.3.x and possibly a RAID 0 striped disk array and, depending on what you are up to, you should be good to go with that machine for a number of years to come.

Have fun spending money ;-)

Epaminondas

giantmike · « **Reply #5 on:** December 10, 2003, 07:46:34 AM »

One thing I don't see mentioned here is a hard drive upgrade. If you are still using a 5400 RPM hard drive, you should definitely get a new 7200 RPM drive. This will probably be the most significant upgrade, as it will speed up any operation which uses the hard drive (basically all of them) by around 30%, even with your new CPU.

With the ammount of RAM you already have in your machine, I would say this is the path you should take for upgrading: CPU, then hard drive, then Video Card, then RAM.

Good luck with the upgrades.

Paddy · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2003, 04:45:08 PM »

I'd like to add a second to Mike's comment about hard drives - that was one of my first upgrades after RAM, and it DID make a big difference!

Generally all the RAM problems (CL2 vs CL3 etc.) appeared when OS X first came out. I had some RAM that didn't work with OS X - and am luck enough to live quite near Data Memory Systems, who I'd purchased some of it from. They very cheerfully changed the timing on it (yes, you can do that to RAM - it was news to me!) and even did the chip I hadn't bought from them! That's what I call service. But I digress - you're already using OS X, so that problem shouldn't be an issue.

And further to what Epinamondas said about video cards - you might want to read this thread and check out the links within. Making me re-think what I'll be doing with my eBay auction proceeds!

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/topic/27135-1.html

More important notes about which card is best:

http://www.barefeats.com/sawgraf.html

Jay · « **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2003, 09:54:36 PM »

Thanks for the help everyone. This is all making things so much easier!

As for hard drives... I know absolutly nothing about them! I was looking at the dufferent options at OWC and I dont know what I need from all the choices. I assume you are all talking about internal drives. How do i figure out what is going to fit in my machine?

I dont even know anything about changing them. My OS X is installed on my internal drive, will I have to reinstall EVERYTHING on my internal drive? All my main programs are all on there as well.

Sounds like I am in for a lot of work!

Jay

Epaminondas · « **Reply #8 on:** December 11, 2003, 10:46:49 AM »

<< As for hard drives... I know absolutly nothing about them! I was looking at the dufferent options at OWC and I dont know what I need from all the choices. I assume you are all talking about internal drives. How do i figure out what is going to fit in my machine? >>

First step - tell us what you currently have.

In MacOS 9.x - go to the Apple System Profiler in the Apple menu, click on "Devices and Volumes," click on the little triangles to tell you more, and report back on what you currently have.

Note particularly brand names, sizes, speeds, cache, and terms like "IDE, EIDE, ATA, SATA, or SCSI." The latter will help us figure out what kind of drives your computer can currently handle.

(MacOS 10.x probably has an equivalent to MacOS 9.x's Apple System Profiler, if you prefer - I do not run Os X, so I cannot advise).

<< I dont even know anything about changing them. My OS X is installed on my internal drive, will I have to reinstall EVERYTHING on my internal drive? All my main programs are all on there as well. >>

You do not have to replace your current drive - you can just add additional drives, and change or add OSs and applications at your leisure.

I have never been inside a Sawtooth case, but I believe that the layout is similar to the B&W G3. Here is an example of four drives installed across the bottom of a G3 B&W case - just scroll down until you see the picture:

http://forums.macgurus.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s...839&m=912604835

Note the drive connectors - the two wide ribbon connectors are 68-pin SCSI connectors going from two SCSI drives, stacked on top of one another (hopefully in a stacking U-bracket) to an add-on PCI SCSI card.

The two thin red SATA connectors are going from two SATA drives sitting side-by-side to an add-on PCI SATA controller card.

None of these drives are going to the EIDE bus built into the machine (the black port in the motherboard partially hidden beneath the SCSI ribbons) as these drives do not work on the original built-in EIDE connector.

Why buy SATA or SCSI drives? Lotsa reasons!

To clarify - your machine probably currently runs on a single EIDE hard drive on the Sawtooth's built-in EIDE connector - but you need to check first, just to make sure. Faster better - but more expensive - alternatives include SCSI and SATA drives, each of which would require their own additional PCI controller card.

If you want more than four drives in your Sawtooth - something you are probably not quite ready for - well, I am going to be velcroing another drive on top of the Zip/CDRW drive cage in my B&W - plenty of room up there, and this particular drive runs pretty cool - this is a not uncommon practice by owners of B&Ws.

Your limitations in regards to internal drives in these cases is likely the power supply and internal heat dissipation rather than finding places to put them. ;-)

The following may educate you a bit in regard to the overall quality of different brands of drives - and the necessity for practicing good backup discipline:

I.e., all drives eventually fail:

http://forums.dealmac.com/read.html?f=1&i=...78309&t=1478309

<< Sounds like I am in for a lot of work! >>

Only as much as you want to do: ;-)

Uprading an AGP G4/400

Regards,

Epaminondas

Jay · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2003, 11:31:47 PM »

Stupid question...

I have an apple CRT Studio Display 17 inch... Is the connection VGA? I think it is. I'm trying to figure out what video card to get.

Also, whats better? The ATI video cards or the Apple nVidia? The apple cards are way cheaper...
What would be the best video card for me? Dont want to spend *too* much

Thanks!
jay

Gary S · « **Reply #10 on:** December 13, 2003, 12:57:18 AM »

I have a 32mb ATI card in my Beige G3 and a nVIDIA 64mb in my G4 Quicksilver. It's hard to compare since one has twice as much juice. nVIDIA and ATI both make great cards.

Put a 64mb in and Vroom.

Scott · « **Reply #11 on:** December 13, 2003, 01:07:53 AM »

Currently... Sawtooth G4's with aftermarket nVidia cards have SERIOUS problems with OS 10.3. Serious problems, like no video. Or video if you hack the install but Quartz Extreme won't activate when it should.

Reports have it that OS10.3.2 will fix this issue.

Just beware if you install OS10.3 on a Sawtooth G4 with an nVidia GeForce 2 MX or Geforce 4MX you may lose all video.

Jay · « **Reply #12 on:** December 14, 2003, 02:46:09 PM »

Thanks! I think I am going to go with the ATI...

While looking on the Panther website, way at the bottom it says "Processor upgrade cards are not supported."

Does this mean they won't provide support later down the road if there are problems, or does Panther not work with upgraded processors. I am going to get this one.

Thanks again!

You have all been such a big help.

Scott · « **Reply #13 on:** December 14, 2003, 02:48:49 PM »

It means they do no testing and don't intend Panther to work with upgrade cards. It doesn't mean it won't work. But if it doesn't you shouldn't expect Apple to fix it. Basically.. Apple wants you to buy a G5.

Epaminondas · « **Reply #14 on:** December 14, 2003, 03:15:28 PM »

Dollar for GHz, the PowerLogix PowerForce 1400 MHz G4 upgrade for 100 MHz G4 Macs going for $419.00 from MacGurus might also be a good choice.

News:

Author Topic: Looking to upgrade... (Read 6068 times)