Which is worse?

[krissel]

Thanks guys for all the suggestions.

Gary, yes, that's the basic method I used but only 5 chimes.

Chris, I will give that a try if I can get some of that cleaner. However the second monitor is on a different video card so it's picking up the signal through a different path anyway.

Kelly, why what do  you mean you didn't promise?

You know we all take your word as gospel around here....

[chriskleeman]

Kris,

If you haven't, switch the monitors on the video cards first and see what happens. Hardware problems are usually easier to pin down... usually by process of elimination... kinda like Conflict Catcher, but without all the restarts!!!

Seriously, switch out those monitors and see what happens then. I run a lot of electronic equipment and I find that corrosion and moisture show up in the most unlikely places... Even taking out the PCI card and using electronic contact cleaner might solve the problem.

$5.49 at Radio Shack, although if you know an electronics store near you, Cramolin is the best stuff.  

CK

[mooregr]

You don't mention what model of Macintosh you are using. This might make a difference maybe open-firmware related. I looked on the Mitsubishi web site and they are recommending turning the monitor off for 20 seconds and then back on.  http://www.necmitsubishi.com/support/css/t...hoot/page19.htm

It mayu also be related to DDC monitor support in the ATI card.  This maybe incorrectly sensing the monitor information. I would not be worried about turning the monitor off.
Hope it helps
Guy

[krissel]

Chris, thanks for the name of the cleaner. I'll look for it next time I'm near Radio Shack.

When I first got the video card (over a year ago) and this was happening I did try switching the two monitors just to test. The older  video card is only 8MB so I don't want to use it as my main monitor but was willing to swap to troubleshoot.  Anyway, if I remember correctly I had all kinds of trouble with getting any signal at all on the second monitor from the newer  card, it kept giving me an out of sync message. The older monitor has a special adapter that has pin settings and works just fine with the older card but not the new one, with or without the adapter. So I had no choice but to set it up the way it is now.

Guy, thanks for the link to the troubleshooting at Mitsubishi. The page you posted was for if I had a blinking power LED but that's not what I get. I backed up in the troubleshooting map to the beginning and started out with the No Signal and amber light. Unfortunately I follow the steps to the part where it says power the computer off and on and if the picture shows check my Energy settings. Well first of all I have it set to never sleep and the computer is certainly not going to sleep when  I select the Restart from the menu. Second, I don't have the problem when the whole computer is shut down and started up, it happens on system restart only. Arggg.!
 

BTW, I have a 9600, G4 700, 1.4 G RAM, 4G and 18 G drives, USB/FW cards, etc. running 9.1. The second card is an 8MB XclaimVR.

There's one thing I saw in that map that I have yet to try and that is a reset of the monitor from the front control panel but I want to wait until  the situation happens again.

   

Thanks again for all the suggestions. Will let you know if anything works.

[krissel]

Intriguing development:

Quite by accident I have found the culprit in my restart/no sync to monitor problem.

While testing out a new scanner I plugged its USB cable into the USB  hub and somehow doing so knocked out my USB MS Optical mouse. Since the USB is through a PCI card I always keep my ADB mouse plugged into the keyboard (but stuffed under the desk) just for occasions like this.

Unplugging and replugging the USB did not reenable the ports so I realized the hub needing a reboot along with the computer.  I used the ADB mouse to select system restart from the menu fully expecting to go through the turn off/on the monitor routine.

Well, to my surprise the monitor did not lose sync and immediately lit back up with the startup screen, etc.
 

I have since tested this with the USB mouse and the ADB mouse and it is repeatable. No sync if I use the USB mouse to select restart, sync if I use the ADB mouse.


Needless to say, I'm glad I have an alternate method to preserve my poor monitor.

But.. now who can explain the reason why?      

[Bruce_F]

That is intriguing, Kris.

With my G4 MDD desktop there are times, such as a software glitch, when the WACOM mouse I use stops functioning all together. (not often) Then I must rely on the original USB mouse to get the cursor to move.

Other than that, I can't recall a time when the WACOM mouse commands don't funtion on menus in the Finder.

What you're experiencing sounds like a driver issue. Are you running with the latest mouse driver? Have you ever re-installed the driver software? Does the MS driver keep a preference file?

[Gary S]

The plot thickens! Have you tried Sherlock.......I mean Sherlock Holmes that is.

I cna't figure out the ADB vs USB mouse thing other than a faulty USB driver or something faulty with the MSN mouse or the USB card.

Very wierd. How long has this been happening, from the time you started using the USB mouse or just recently?

At least some progress is being made.

BTW,
You know, I had a USB hub on my beige G3 that my USB mouse was plugged into that would occasionally not load properly or where on booting-up my USB mouse wouldn't work. If I unplugged the mouse from the hub and plugged it in again, 9 out of 10 times, it would work without a reboot.
When I got the G4 I bought a new Belkin USB hub and put it on the Beige G3 put the old hub on the G4. I haven't had the problem since on the G3, not once! The old USB hub functions fine on the G4.

[krissel]

Crazy isn't it?

The hub, mouse and monitor all were put into use about the same time over a year ago so I never isolated the mouse as having anything to do with how the monitor behaved. The right confluence of events didn't occur until the other day when i accidentally knocked out the hub.

I do have all the latest drivers for the mouse and it has always worked fine and never missed a beat. What is so strange is that the mouse cursor selects the menu restart just like any other mouse would. How could that have any effecct on what the system or monitor does from there? Once a command is made it shouldn't make any difference by which mouse. The command is from the same origin, so why....?

Man, this is nuts.    

[Gary S]

To quote the Beatles....."Very Strange".  

It's starting to drive me nuts too.

I figured Kelly would have come up with a link today.

Too bad you don't have another USB mouse to hook up and try.

[krissel]

QUOTE(Gary S @ Feb 7 2004, 11:09 PM)

Too bad you don't have another USB mouse to hook up and try.

Actually I do but it only has X.x drivers so would only work generically on 9.1. But I may give it a try later anyway out of curiosity.

After some reading I came across information discussing the ADB/USB shim that was included in the Mac ROM in newer Mac OSes but that the USB support also was updated for better ADB support.

"For external USB mice and keyboards to be fully compatible and interoperate seamlessly... an ADB shim is used to convert USB mouse and keyboard events into ADB packets. "


Then I noticed in THIS THREAD, giantmike's reference to THIS SOFTWARE from Apple, I was wondering if it would be safe to try those USB extensions. It is technically for built-in USB Macs and I saw that version 1.5.1 "- fixed problem with supporting USB PCI Cards which do not correctly support Power Management."

 I did download the software and ran some of the USB programs to test the USB bus and got some interesting info. Notably that the USB PCI card in the 9600 seems to have a high speed port and a regular port. Whether this has anything to do with the powered hub attached to the outside of it I don't know, but doubt it. However this doesn't have anything to do with the mouse situation.

I also found out that the device at port 6 (the mouse) :

QUOTE

Expert - Could not find Native Power Manager Lib 0

So, I am surmising that the driver for the USB mouse doesn't have the proper management protocols to interpret the normally ADB commands
to my computer. Since the ADB mouse and the keyboard both give the correct command to keep sync with the monitor that seems to be the key. One little fly in this ointment is that some program installers that require a restart do keep sync when they demand a restart from their final install window. Maybe there are extra calls in that software to complete the proper restart mechanism???

Well, I'm sure no one else really cares about this anyway but I though I would at least go with it as far as I could.

Do I dare put in those extensions for the USB from 9.2.1 or just let it go...there was a semi-warning that those drivers were not intended for end users.

   

[FLASH1296]

I turn my monitor  (19"  CRT  Princeton Graphics EO90)  OFF   whenever I so much as step away from it for more than a 1/2 hr.  I would guess that i is turned ON and OFF at least a dozen times per day   --  and has been doing just that for 6 years.

This is a no-brainer.

By the way, under O S  9,  you can easily reorder the startup  LOADING  ORDER  of  extensions  including the ATI extensions.

[krissel]

Thanks FLASH.

Things are back to "normal" now. The extensions are loading in their proper order and the resolution switch occurs early in the startup sequence.

Unfortunately "normal" means my little eureka of using the ADB mouse doesn't work now.    I have gone back to turning off the monitor on system restart. Haven't tried those other USB extensions yet.

Glad to hear you have put your monitor through such a stressful routine successfully. I usually set my monitor and system to sleep manually and everything wakes up OK so that is helpful.

My basic worries over turning things on and off like that harken back to warnings that the most stress on electronics, especially things with tubes, was in the startup process. I remember reading that TV's usually fail from that procedure more than anything else and that flourescent lights are actually rated by how many times they are turned on, not on the hours lighted like incandescent bulbs. Maybe it's the switch/starter itself and not the tubes? Perhaps this is old thinking but it's what I have always believed.
Kind of like the adage that the worst times during plane flights is the takeoff and landing, right ADB?  

Anyway, thanks for the input. I won't worry so much about the monitor going on me.