Author Topic: Why I see no need to adopt OSX  (Read 19285 times)

Offline kelly

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2003, 08:55:00 PM »
kelly
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Offline Gregg

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2003, 12:50:00 PM »
ejc, I'm, with ya pal! I hope my old G3 keeps on tickin' for a long, long time. I can't imagine a reason in the forseeable future that will compel me to upgrade my OS (beyond 9.2.2) and all my programs as well. If it dies, and I have to buy a new computer, I'll be royally P.O.'d that I'll need to scrap all my software and start over!
 
 [ 03-03-2003, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Gregg ]
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Epaminondas

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2003, 10:32:00 PM »
IAW 'most everything, above.
_______________________________________________

cdub1988,

I have not run Linux on a Mac [not enough room on my old SCSI hard drives to play with it], but I am certainly curious.  

I am surprised that you are running Linux on office Macs.  What are the advantages over just running a MacOs on them?

What differences do you see between Yellow Dog and Mandrake?  Any preference for one or the other?

People write that Linux runs faster than Windows on PCs and runs faster than the MacOS on Macs.  What are you seeing?

Stability of Linux on Mac hardware?

_________________________________________________

Mayo wrote:

<< I now consider it altogether possible that sometime in the future I will be working at a Windows or Linux machine. Not because I want to switch, but because Apple will no longer exist as an alternative.  >>

As Kelly's follow-up url might suggest - concern as to Apple's demise may be a wee bit premature. ;-)

Particularly considering that Apple has around four billion dollars of cash on hand.  And Jobs, no doubt, likely has quite a few more tricks to pull out of that wondrous magic hat of his.  That man is no fool. E.g. - the IBM chip Mac, when it comes, might just blow us all away . . .

I am content to wait and see. :-)

On the other hand -

When  I began using the Mac, Apple had about a 12% U.S desktop market share.

I have since watched that decline to 8%.  Then 5%.  Then 3% . . .

Apple's market share has actually declined since Jobs returned to save Apple from itself:

6.7% 1996
4.1% 1997
4.5% 1998
3.0% 2001

Do you begin to see a pattern?

<< Currently, Macintosh U.S. market share is hovering "around 3.5%," according to IDC analyst David Daoud. "That's down from 13.4% a decade ago and 4.2% in the year after Jobs returned." >>

<< annual sales have shrunk from nearly $8 billion to $5.7 billion since 2000 >>

<< Jobs is "pouring big bucks into his retail outlets. This year, Apple will spend $77 million, even though the stores aren't profitable."  >>

<< Worldwide, Apple is in ninth place with a 2.4 percent market share [7/03/02] >>

And an interesting new twist:

<< IDC is saying that the Mac OS is going to be surpassed as the #2 desktop operating system by the various flavors of Unix [i.e., Linux - E.]. This, according to the research firm, will happen "sometime during the next year or so." >> [2003-2004]

My thesis is: you don't need the demise of Apple to have a reason to explore Linux.

Each OS has it's strengths.

The MacOS is highly innovative and it's adherents are happy to pay the substantial price premium for what they get:  that four billion dollars in Apple's war chest did not come out of thin air.

Linux, on the other hand is not highly innovative, nor does it have a large war chest.  It's strengths are merely that it is stable, open, fast and free.  

Linux attracts a different demographic from that which is attracted by Apple.

Each demographic benefits from the other.

_________________________________________________

Gary wrote:

<< I don't quite understand Apple's decision to make the new machines bootable only into X at this time either.

If it's true that Apple's hardware sales are down 50% I think their kind of shooting themselves in the foot.....but...what do I know. [Smile] >>

I think you know a lot. ;-)

I am affected somewhat similarly - but to me, words like "manipulative" and "controlling" and "arrogant" and "desperate" and "kinda pathetic" also come to mind.

But that's just me.

Seems that while Apple is going after switchers, they are also alienating a certain number of true believers.

I suspect that it will all come out a wash, but I am not the one crunching the numbers.

In the meantime - I wonder how much Apple's intentional accelerated obsolesce of older boxes - obviously intended to force current Apple users into buying new hardware - will just result in people putting Linux on these boxes, instead.

Yellow Dog Linux claims it works on Mac PPC 7200s and above.

I don't think you can say that about about Mac OS 9.x - let alone Mac OSX.

Anyway - it is going to be interesting to watch Linux nudge Apple out for the number two spot over the next year or so.

I expect it will be a little longer before Linux edges out number one. ;-)

Peace and music,

Epaminondas

________________________________________________

On Tux the Penguin, the Linux mascot:

<< "When you think 'penguin,' you should be imagining a slightly overweight penguin, sitting down after having gorged itself, and having just burped," Mr. Torvalds once explained. "It's sitting there with a beatific smile - the world is a good place to be when you have just eaten a few gallons of raw fish and you can feel another 'burp' coming." >

________________________________________________
 
 [ 03-03-2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Epaminondas ]

Offline ejc

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2003, 07:32:00 AM »
Hi folks,
The day after starting this thread I succumbed to a bout of influenza. Now nearly recovered.and able to thank everybody for their interesting and wide-ranging contributions.
One small point. Airbusdriver said "He doesn't really sound like he is a normal happy Mac user."
Fact is that I'm disatisfied with the whole PC scene - the Mac is just the least irritating system that I have encountered.
I confess that I am a skeptic in most areas of life. I trained as an engineer then migrated slowly to marketing of capital goods. I am capable of following technical instructions.
BUT, here we are nearly 20 years into the PC era - and IMHO we are still having to understand far too many complexities in order to get simple jobs done.
I expect that operating a PC should be as simple as driving an automobile. I know that autos have been around longer but the pace of development is now much faster.
Marketing people in the PC business, I believe, are too much conditioned by the past and by what those around them are doing.
Apple started with a good slogan - Think different. Back then they really had something new. It's high time the industry took a fundamental look at what users basically want.
Sorry, this has turned into a rant. Possibly Techsurvivors is not the best platform for my disillusionment. Most people in here, I suspect, are highly computer-literate. But I don't know how to reach the silent majority.
Enough.
Peace
ejc

Offline ejc

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2003, 07:42:00 AM »
I forgot to add that I am irritated by the tyranny of the keyboard.

Offline jepinto

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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2003, 08:25:00 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by ejc:
I forgot to add that I am irritated by the tyranny of the keyboard.

You're not alone.  Sweet'ums won't use a computer until he can talk to it.  While voice recognition software has improved, it still isn't perfect.

I saw a demostration of ViaVoice and was impressed.  Have you researched it?  (Might give you the impetus to go to X;  ViaVoice for X was/is a great improvement over previous versions.)
Do not fear your enemies.  The worse they can do is kill you.  Do not fear friends.  At worst, they may betray you.
Fear those who do not care; they neither kill nor betray, but betrayal and murder exist because of their silent consent.
~Bruno Jasienski~

Offline Mayo

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2003, 11:45:00 PM »
EJC has a point: until computers become an "appliance" many people will not use them.  Your typical Mac/PC does way too many things right out of the box, making computers too complicated and prone to problems such as crashing.

Gawd Knows things are better than when I started seriously computing in '97.  For instance, installing and updating software is a lot easier and less likely to cause conflicts than just a few years ago.

But my initial encounter with Macs went very bad, very fast.  The Performa 6300 I purchased in 1995 had tons of problems, partly due to documented hardware bugs and partly due to my inexperience.  Of course, I didn't know about the hardware glitches until long after I had  convinced the dealer to accept a return about three months after I bought the Performa, albeit with a 5% "restocking" fee which totaled $140...

I didn't buy another Mac for two years.  I spent that time reading Mac mags and books.  When I was ready to buy I hired a consultant who did a fair job of setting up the Mac for my business but who resisted telling me anything about how to properly run the computer and trouble-shoot problems on my own.

$1200 later I said Adios! to the fellow and resolved that I would never require his services again.  So far, so good...Knock On Wood!

But I have spent untold hours with my Macs, way more time than the average person probably has at their disposal for dinking around with Beige Boxes.  And I have read a fair number of computer books, something that seems alien to the majority of people I know.  

The joke around our house is "How Do 'Normal' People Deal With It When Things Go Wrong, Really Wrong With Their Computer?"

In our house the More Normal Person is my Dear Wife, who only uses the iMac occasionally for e-mail, word processing and to find something on the Internet.  We have had the iMac on our kitchen table for going on two years and she still hasn't attained a basic working knowledge of the machine.

She can turn it on and usually get to where she wants to go, but if a dialog box suddenly apppears or if there is a minor problem, I suddenly become Mr. FixIt.  In other words, she treats the iMac as if it were an appliance, which it most certainly is not.

I think that this is the situation for many people, and what do folks do when there isn't a Mr. FixIt around?  Young people can rely on each other for help, and I suppose that parents can get help from one of their kids.  I have absolutely no idea how this works in reality, since we don't have kids (one reason that I have so much time to fool around with Macs...)

Most older folks I know are intimidated by the new technology, and I don't blame them.  It might remind some of them of the early cars, where you had to be a bit of a mechanic or you would never get anywhere.  Now cars can go years without a need for a repair, while computers are the equivalent of a Model T.  If you have to rely on tech support or a computer "consultant" for help, it will become very time-consuming/expensive/frustrating, and who needs that?

I helped an older friend (early 70s) get his first Mac, which was his first computer experience of any kind.  But in my experience he is unique, because he wasn't afraid to try something new, he actually spends time reading the Mac books I have suggested and he will fiddle with his Mac on his own, even if I have to encourage him now and then.

If he does get in trouble I am just over the back fence, and like I tell him, it really is difficult to totally screw-up things.  If worse comes to worse you can erase the mother and start-over. Take THAT, you Bad Harddrive!!!

What he usually tells me over the fence is that everything is hunky-dory and the iMac hasn't crashed for months.  And he uses it more than most people I know.

Which brings me back to OS X.  A major reason that I haven't spent much time with X is because I would rather be doing other things these days than learning a new operating system.  Like others have noted, OS 9 and even 8.6 work just dandy, I am not inclined to spend even more $$$ to upgrade perfectly good hardware/software and OS X is still (how shall I put this...?) less than fully-ripe, kind of like that tropical fruit available in mainland markets.

It looks pretty good, but the flavor isn't quite right.

   
 
 [ 03-05-2003, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Mayo ]

Offline Spartacus

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2003, 12:02:00 PM »
I believe it makes perfect sense to Apple to make their new Macs OS X only.
Classic is dead - Steve Jobs said that.
They force the user to buy OS X native software in future.
=> Software companies won't develope apps for Classic.
=> The software developers can spend their time and resources on the OS X apps. (Apple doesn't want them to develope Classic apps)
=> There will be more and better OS X apps.
=> Less and less people are going to depend on OS 9/Classic
It's where Apple is leading: OS X only. Sooner or later classic is probably going to be droped, too.
And by releasing Macs that cannot boot under OS 9 it's only a matter of time they can discontinue support on the classic OS.
Whether we like it or not, for Apple it doesn't make sense to have Macs that run OS 9.

Aside, I don't believe that Macs that can boot OS 9 would help Apple sell more Macs.

Just my 2¢.
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Offline Gary S

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2003, 12:32:00 PM »
I don't know how many have been following the Mac OS debate on the MacinTouch site but it is very civil and interesting.

 Mac OS X Justification

I found this one post interesting in that it proposed that Apple could put some their resources toward  OS9x. as well.

Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2003 10:20:07 -0800
From: [MacInTouch Reader]
Subject: Justifying X

As a former member of what one would call the NeXT community, and a long time Mac user I'd like to offer my opinion on X. At the beginning of the development cycle Apple made a decision that the people that are writing in to your site, artists and designers didn't really matter. They were just a small part of a big picture and X was to be a consumer based OS. In this regard Apple has failed miserably. As a consumer based OS, X is a disaster. The fact that it doesn't "crash," or has free iApps is a weak excuse for a OS that virtually has no help, no manual, and is not intuitive in the way something like the Windows Start command is. If you've used WinXp you know that it too doesn't crash and offers 100% compatibility with "the rest of the world" as we like to refer to it. And although I'm too lazy to drag my NeXTStation 25 mhz out of storage and fire it up, I'm certain "native" apps like Mail run faster on it then on my G4 Cube.

As an OS for professionals it is simply horrid. Slow, buggy, incomplete, and did I mention slow? I can at any time lock up a "top shelf" Mac coming out of Apple doing simple things like moving around large amounts of files. My friends at Apple reply that I can simply drop into terminal and get things done very quickly. Well sorry boys, I really don't feel like typing commands like I did in school. It violates common Apple user interface guidelines at every turn, but well, it does have some nifty screensavers.

Apple likes to use the term insanely great. The classic definition of insane is someone who continues to do something with negative results and expects change. Apple's hardware sales are off 50%. Granted the economic climate doesn't foster impulse buying, but the fact is as Apple continues to push X, people continue to resist or "switch." Apple's slogan of "think different" apparently isn't being heard in the board room. A unified OS 9 release, say 9.5 that supported something as simple as long file names would probably sell in excess of one million copies. At $100 each that's a nice profit. However, Apple and their chef software architect Avi Tevanian are so fully entrenched in "not invented by me" that the company continues to slide into oblivion while everyone makes due with aging hardware.

Perhaps Apple can licence the line from Metallica for their next advertising slogan. "You can do it your own way, just as long as it's how we say."
 
 [ 03-05-2003, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Gary S ]
Gary S

Offline Mayo

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2003, 12:55:00 PM »
   

Offline Bill

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« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2003, 01:40:00 PM »
Gary S and his copy/paste says a lot more than my version of civil.
Fact is I was just at MacinTouch keeping up on that topic and I came back here and read Spartacus post.

I have (feel in need <gr>) to post this after reading Spartacus post.

 
"Classic is dead - Steve Jobs said that."
Steve jobs said it. So What!
Do you honestly believe he is thinking about the consumer?
Course he isn't. He's thinking about the share holders with suits and what new pony he is going to buy. Which is fine considering it was he and a few others that got Apple rolling BUT lets put this in it's correct perspective.

"They force the user to buy OS X native software in future."
Most of the underlined below is plain dribble.
The key word is -forced- sir.

Sure it makes good sense for Apples pony buyers.

I personally wouldn't mind if all the boys pool together and make one platform/software etc etc so everyone on this planet can say hey to each other without hassles of any sort.
In this stage of the game ... Never ever is going to happen (too late) naturally.

Now more than ever Apple needs to keep up with the Macoys and Hatfields.

So Stevie boy is -forcing- or pitching what he thinks is best for the consumer not to mention his own happy bank account.

my 2¢
Two cans and a string powered by a big mouth

Offline Gary S

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« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2003, 01:45:00 PM »
Mayo,

Although I couldn't resist posting that, because I think there was some truth in it, I'm going to try and learn OSX because I think Sparticus was probably right. There just isn't going be many OS9x apps developed. I just got off the phone with an Alsoft Tech and DiskWarrior 3 is going to be native OSX. So......buttons on your underware.
Gary S

Offline Gary S

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« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2003, 02:02:00 PM »
I said I was going to try!  

One more copy/paste that hit home with me:

"I tell my clients that change is not always progress and OS X simply represents change, one that will lead to more expenses and less security. That is the opposite of progress."

What makes me angry right now is I'm getting a new Mac and I'm scared!
Gary S

Offline Mayo

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« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2003, 02:08:00 PM »
I do not consider myself a Luddite, and I accept the apparent inevitability of OS X.  Heck, I even bought a copy of "The Missing Manual."  My primary beef is with the lack of choice when it comes to where one can boot their Mac...

I have never met Mr Jobs, but I pick-up an arrogant vibe from the guy.  I sometimes find myself wondering if he ever has a meaningful exchange with Mac users outside Apple.  And unless I am wrong, I recall that Steve didn't do such a hot job at Apple's helm the first time around.  It's just that the fellows that followed were so awful that Steve looks good in comparison.

But I digress...

It pains me to see what I believe should be the top personal computer company sink further and further into irrelevancy.  Yes, they have billions in the bank but that can be gone in the fiscal blink of an eye.  Apple sells billions of dollars worth of goods and services and can barely make a profit; sometimes it can't even do that.
 
 [ 03-05-2003, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Mayo ]

Offline kelly

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Why I see no need to adopt OSX
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2003, 02:15:00 PM »
OS X vs OS 9.x was a Hot Topic two years ago.  

I find it interesting that the original post was not so much against OS X as computers period.

Carry on.
kelly
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