Why I see no need to adopt OSX

[Spartacus]

quote:Originally posted by Bill:
"Classic is dead - Steve Jobs said that."
Steve jobs said it. So What!
Do you honestly believe he is thinking about the consumer?

Did I say so? Or did I say I aprove his actions? I only said that that's the way business goes. Apple wants people to switch to OS X because it generates about 17% or their revenue.
And fact is, if you like it or not, that Steve Jobs is CEO of Apple. If he says OS 9 is dead, it is dead.

 

quote:Originally posted by Bill:
"They force the user to buy OS X native software in future."
Most of the underlined below is plain dribble.
The key word is -forced- sir.

Again, I know what I wrote and I wrote that particular word on purpose.

 

quote:Originally posted by Bill:
So Stevie boy is -forcing- or pitching what he thinks is best for the consumer not to mention his own happy bank account.

Of course he decides what he thinks is best for the consumer. He is trying to sell his products to consumers. And I believe his - and Apple's - success prove him right.

Or perhaps I didn't get the point of your post...

[Edit] P.S. I found your post very offensive.
 
 [ 03-05-2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Spartacus ]

[Mayo]

Spartacus, ol' buddy, would you mind elaborating about the "success" you refer to?  I see a company with a diminishing market share and minimal profits relative to their gross income.  But I could be missing something...

I have long wondered why Apple put nearly all its apples (sorry 'bout that one!) in one basket by ignoring the obvious profits to be made developing superior software for the Mac.  Microsoft apparently figured it out a long time ago that hardware profitability is relatively limited while software can be very profitable indeed.

And since Apple/Jobs seems so intent on focusing on hardware, it was mind-boggling that Apple introduced hardware licensing, a move that threatened to undermine the very foundation of the company. Of course, the licensing initiative didn't last for very long, but I cannot fathom why they did it in the first place.

[Xairbusdriver]

Come on 'guys!' Re-read the original post. There aren't any 'inspectors' coming to your home (yet)! So use what you want, while you can, and remember, using a Mac is fun! When it ceases to be, move on, if possible. If not you'll still have the memories to pass on to your grand children!

Steve will do what he thinks is best for the company (and its shareholders). If he is wrong, all we have lost is a great promise. If he is right, we will all have even better hard/software. And I will admit that I too, bought the "Missing Manual" book, along with a few others, but Apple has not made a penny off me with OS X. Nor do I expect to buy a non-9 bootable Mac for many years, given the choice. Like Mayo, I'm the resident fixit guy. I like my "reputation" even though it is only my wifes opinion! And she sounds similar to his wife, any dialog box almost always causes the 'deer-in-the-headlights' phenomenon! It seems sometimes she can't read English, anymore! It is not her fault, computers are still intimidating to many. I don't see OS X helping in that area.

I'm out of pennies, gotta go...

Let's remember we're on the same team here - the Mac User Support Team!

Jim C.

[Mayo]

Hey Jim, this is just a mild-mannered b***h session... Yeah, the conversation has wandered just a tad since the original post, but at least things are pretty civil and the discussion is somewhat related to the topic.

[Paddy]

In Defense of X

Um...where to start? I'm in a bit of feisty mood anyway, since last night the school committee candidate (also a personal friend) who's campaign I worked on non-stop for the past 6 weeks went down to a 60-vote defeat...but I digress. Grumpy? Me? About a town that just doesn't GET IT and just elected the first Libertarian School Committee member in the US? Who's signed himself up to www.sepschool.org ? (an organization that aims to do away with public schools?) So, take the following with a grain of salt - I'm not intending to insult anyone - I am in a rather dark mood.  

Apple is a company that makes HARDWARE. Yes, it's a hardware company. It's in BUSINESS. It would like to STAY in business. Hence, it needs to make the customer want to buy MORE HARDWARE. So, one of the ways to do that, is to make a better, faster, more bells 'n whistles operating system...that, you guessed it...needs new hardware. They did it with just about every OS they've released - after all, we just finished discussing G4's that will boot 8.6 didn't we? And what was the conclusion? Not many will - only the earliest and the slowest.

Backwards compatibility is always nice, but it isn't forever - at some point you have to wonder if you're shooting yourself in the foot from a business standpoint. Afterall, how many software developers want to develop for TWO Mac operating systems? Sheesh - sometimes it's hard enough getting them to develop for ONE.    

I find a lot of the charges levelled at OS X in the post Gary copied and pasted spurious at best. I've been using X for over a year now - and I am so comfortable with it now that using 9 feels about as different as using a PC...actually, I use my PC more now than 9, come to think of it. I've never managed to "lock it up" - despite doing lots of things simultaneously. Right now, on this Powerbook, I have 21 applications running. I've copied the content of entire drives - what the heck is he talking about? Jaguar on this Powerbook is fast - browsing with Safari is an incredible treat and makes IE on any OS, including 9 seem like molasses in January.  Anything new is going to feel weird at first - I think I have characterized first experiences with X here in the past as being a "stranger in a strange land". Much like the first time I tinkered with a PC. It's that "wow...where'd my familiar Mac go?" feeling that I think some people get needlessly stuck on. It's still a Mac...just different. It hasn't morphed overnight into a PC or a LINUX box, though from some things I've read, you'd think it had. The Help menu...helps. It's not all-inclusive, but it's a start. There are a lot of resources out there - books, online discussions etc. And here, of course.

On the other hand, if you use and like 9 and are satisfied with the applications available for 9 (I wasn't) then go for it. But you can't in all honesty expect Apple to join you forever in the past. That's not what business is all about. Apple is not setting out to maliciously say " to heck with you" - it's simply trying to stay in business doing what a business must do - create demand for its products, or go belly-up. To invest this with a lot of emotion is somewhat pointless. Steve Jobs may be arrogant - but that's not why new Macs are only going to boot OS X.

Yes, the first official (as in non-beta) release of X was probably more of a beta than it should have been and yes, there are probably still some things that need ironing out in Jaguar (according to others, anyway - personally I've not experienced any problems - touch wood!!) but there is no such thing as a "perfect" operating system - and there probably never will be, as long as human beings have anything to do with it. Some are just less perfect than others...and your conception of perfection may not match mine. And that's what makes things interesting.

That and towns that lose their collective minds and elect Libertarians to School Committees...

[Bill]

"[Edit] P.S. I found your post very offensive."

As I did your first post sir for being so simplistic in your opinionated views as if what you say must be the whole-truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth.!.
Now if you did or do find that my post was offensive,you really,really should of seen it before I edited it [twice] then.  

Also sir if you're going to quote me,it would help to not just pick portions.
"Course he isn't. He's thinking about the share holders with suits and what new pony he is going to buy. Which is fine considering it was he and a few others that got Apple rolling BUT lets put this in it's correct perspective."

Yet all this bit about being offended means knot considering just about every piece you wrote in your second post more or less states the same.
If you want to repeat your post over and over again, be my guest.

My first post speaks for it self.
Fact is,you say don't believe you got the point of my post.
Then perhaps you should re-read it again.

I can dance this game/debate/discussion with you Spartacus till the moon gets over stuffed with green cheeze if you care. Makes no difference to me.

Although airbusdriver is correct not to mention Mayo and his thoughts.

I might just add that I was using Jag and still am using Jag.
 
Kelly even stated this thread has gotten side tracked some.

my 4¢  

I'm off to watch another movie.

[pendragon]

Paddy, I most enjoyed and appreciated your insight and comments. Thanks for sharing them.

Harv

[Mayo]

Paddy, your school election sounds like you live in Oregon, but I see that you don't...

Would leaving new Macs bootable into 9 really affect Apple's bottom line that much?  New Macs already boot by default into X, and I assume that most new Mac owners would stay with the default OS rather than install OS 9.  At least that has been my experience with a scientifically insignificant sampling of new Mac users I know...

Speaking just for myself, of course, but when the time seems right I will take the plunge and go through the process of learning OS X.  I never said it was garbage, just that the booting issue affects the most die-hard Mac owners:  legacy users that have to balance productivity with the cost of upgrading, not to mention those of us who still use apps that cannot easily be replaced but which are not yet updated to be native to OS X.

If DiskLock wasn't totally incompatible with OS X I would already have it on my iBook and iMac and I would be playing with X as time and interest permits.  I would probably be pretty familiar with X by this time except for that stumbling block.

Folks who are dependent on Quark and who have Macs used in a business obviously have more compelling reasons for staying-put than my relatively feeble excuse.  I think that all of us will sooner or later make the move to X but IMVHO, the time isn't now.  Even another year of  "legacy booting" would be adequate for many folks; I just think the timing is off on this decision.
 
 [ 03-05-2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Mayo ]

[Gary S]

Paddy,
Paddy, your school election sounds like you live in Wisconsin!    

I would like to thank you for your comments too.

Somehow your words had a calming influence on me. I don't know why the thought of running OSX.2 makes me anxious, but knowing I will surely need some help with the transition, I glad Techsurvivors is here and available to me.

BTW, I just went over to sepschool.org - ouch.
 
 [ 03-05-2003, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Gary S ]

[RobW]

Wow, I hadn't been by this thread in awhile. Funny how some threads twist and turn. (Well, maybe not funny, but you get the idea.)

Anyway, as most of you may remember, I was a somewhat strong opponent of OSX not that long ago. Actually, I was just angry about having an OS shoved down my throat. To be honest, I'd still be using OS9.x if Apple hadn't made it available to my wife, the public school teacher, for free. Realizing that it was going to happen for me sooner or later, and never again for free, I somewhat reluctantly jumped on the bandwagon.

Gary, in all honesty, you really don't need to be scared. Frankly, maybe because I drove people at TS nuts with questions ahead of time, and all but called David Pogue on the phone at his home a few times, but I found that the transition was really pretty easy for me. I found that the first couple of weeks I would from time to time be staring at the computer with the old "dumb cow" look while I tried to figure out how to navigate to a folder to find a file. However, before long it really did become 2nd nature.

ABD, like you,  in my house when it comes to the computer, I'm the resident fix-it guy. (Trust me, this is only limited to the computer. There are zoning laws against me doing plumbing or electrical work.) In pretty  short order, I was once again able to troubleshoot issues that came up since the move to OSX. I can even solve problems over the phone while I'm at work--just like the good old days of OS9. Fortunately, there've been very few to solve.

The thing I'd point out is that I moved to OSX on 12/20/02.--Only two and a half months ago. I really don't even notice the difference anymore or think in the "language" of OS9 anymore.

Bottom line for me and my $.02--if you like what you're using stick with it. If you want to move to OSX for whatever reason, it's really not anything to be all that worried about. (BTW, as I type that last sentence, somewhere in California I  know that RHP is grinning and saying "I told you so".   )

Ok, you can go back to the arguing now.

[ejc]

Kelly, you hit the nail right on the head. I'm trying to wean myself from an attachment to any particular PC system, take a few steps back, and look (hopefully) objectively at where we stand after some 20 years.
Mabe I'm missing something, but since Apple introduced their GUI (a genuine step change) I have seen no real breakthrough in ease of usage.
Frankly I will be mildly sorry if Apple goes under but for me that's a secondary point. What I am waiting for is another great leap forward in ease of usage. The way corporations develop I suspect it will come not from one of them but from a bunch of enthusiasts in a garage. Good luck to them!
Peace

ejc

[Paddy]

Oregon - I used to live there! Oregon has at least one loony that makes our resident loony look like a pussycat...(and that's all I'll say - if you know Oregon, you'll know who I'm referring to!)

It would seem that things are bad all over for schools and public education. I'd consider moving...but where to? Corvallis, where I used to live, has class sizes of over 30 for kindergarten and first grade! Schools being closed, kids bused out of their neighborhoods clear across town, constant budget woes and seemingly, no state-mandated curriculum (at least that's what I've deduced from one of my friends who wanted to know how MA compared). It's not that bad here, yet...but we've got a $2.5M (or about 9% of the budget) between what we need to maintain level services and what our Town Manager has said the schools are going to get. A tax override last year failed - spectacularly, so that's not an option. It's not pretty.

Ontario, Canada, where I lived until 11 years ago, is no better according to my sis who is a teacher in Cobourg, ON. They've got very little support for Special Ed, ancient and unsupported technology, somewhat strange province-wide mandated curriculum and constant budget cuts and freezes.

I just don't get it. Everyone says that "Education" is the most important thing we do with our tax dollars - but when push comes to shove, nobody wants to pay for it.  

So, now I've totally derailed this thread! Now, where were we?

Why can't Apple make Macs that still boot into OS 9 for another year or so? Probably they don't want to continue supporting OS 9. There has got to be some cost associated with it. Software companies are writing software for X, not 9 - so it's a win-win proposition for them too...buy new hardware...need new software. Somewhere along the line, the cord has to be cut, and no matter when it is done, it will no doubt be too soon for some. The snail-like development of Quark Xpress for OS X is problematic - no doubt about it. It now remains the only thing between many design pros and OS X & new hardware. And the longer the wait, the fewer customers will remain - InDesign is no doubt making some permanent inroads.

[Spartacus]

Tell me, Bill, where exactly did you disagree with my post?
You say that my post was written like it was "whole-truth-and-nothing-but-the-truth". But in your post you do not disagree to anything I wrote.

Frankly, I don't see what your problem is.

Yes, Apple is taking decisions mainly based on business concerns (more revenue, profit, etc.). I totally agree with you, but I don't see where that contradicts to my post. Acutally, I think it underlines what I said.
And the fact that the guys at the board of directions of Apple earn lots of money (too much (?)) is true, no doubt, but irrelevant here as it is the way capitalism goes. And that's a different discussion.

I believe I got the point of your post very well. I just thought (hoped?) that I misinterpreted the style of your post. I guess I was wrong...

Mayo:
Look at Apple 1996 and look at it now. I believe it is pretty obvious that Steve Jobs (and Apple) IS successful.

[Thomas S. England]

If I could chime in here as one who spends virtually all the time in OS X:

Any Apple computer sold now or on the horizon can be made to boot into OS 9 by using partitioning.

That's not hard to do. I still have a full functioning 9.2 partition on my main machine, separate from Classic. Although these days I use it less & less.

For me, if I were not using OS X I would be missing out on some vital, absolutely vital, software for my business of digital photography.

But I'm really happy with OS X; it took a bit of a transition, like learning to use a new piece of equipment. When I do use OS 9, it now feels foreign and certainly retro.

OS X may not be for everybody now, but sooner rather than later, it will be.

[Paddy]

Actually, Thomas, the firmware will prevent the new Macs from booting into OS 9, just as some machines can't be made to boot into 8.6, because the firmware is more recent. Doesn't matter how you partition them - they won't boot anything but X. The only choice will be Classic - that's what has people upset.