New forum-New Look

[RobW]

Epaminondas wrote:

QUOTE

...The particular chemistry that is Techsurvivors came about entirely by accident. It was not planned. ...

Having read all of the many words that you've written in this thread, I'll tell you this: As one who has known most of the TS founders since the days of NoWonder, then as a member of TS since very close to the day that it went "live" in 2000, and more recently as a member of the EC who has a chance to see up close and personal how things get done and how the personality of this place remains the way it is, I have to tell you, I could not disagree more with that comment. Yes, it was planned, and sure as heck, it's been nurtured and worked at--both by the admins and many of the members, and that's why it is what it is.

[sandbox]

QUOTE

Closing the matter to discussion was pretty childish.

Was it?

QUOTE

First you figure out (1) why it happened .

Then you figure out (2) what to do about it.

We did, thanks for noticing.

QUOTE

If you don't like the direction that Techsurvivors is going in, then do something about it. Just don't do the wrong thing.

Thanks, I’ll try not too.

QUOTE

Techsurvivors is a much more pleasant forum that most fora on the Internet.

It was.

QUOTE

It is because of Techsurvivors' unique structure.

Really?

QUOTE

The structure of Techsurvivors is like a business golf outing.

Four

QUOTE

The more rules and divisions and sections that you have, the more policing that you have to do. The more policing that you have to do, the more bad feelings are generated.

Are there other ways  bad feelings can be generated?

QUOTE

If Techsurvivors is going more Off Topic, have you considered that it may be because its members like it that way?

More accurately: If Techsurvivors is going more Off Topic, have you considered that it may be because SOME OF its members like it that way?

QUOTE

If you don't like it - why don't you volunteer to lead some sort of technical teaching project?

Would it help my resumé?

QUOTE

Stop trying to be a Kindergarten teacher and forcing people to do what you want them to do.

These are mature adults you are dealing with.

Treat them as such.


Best regards,

Epaminondas

An old man sleeps with his conscience at night
Young kids sleep with their dreams
While the mentally ill sit perfectly still
And live through life's in-betweens.
John Prine

[chriskleeman]

All right, I'm going out on a limb on up onto my soapbox:

E, I value your opinions, I have learned mightily from many of your posts, but this time, please give it a rest. You have obviously put a lot of thought and time into how you are articulating your opinions, and I respect that. But I would also ask you to respect the Administrators of this Forum as well. This has been a place of great information sharing and growth for many of us who have found TS to be the absolute best Mac forum on the web. I don't even bother going elsewhere most of the time.

I have been thinking about the coming changes, and I'm beginning to really like the idea of not having to sift through all the OT posts to find particular information on a thread or subject I'm trying to find. And that might just be the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

A lot of hard work and thought has gone into whatever changes lie ahead. We owe it to the TS Founders and the Admins who have been involved so long in it's evolution to let them do what they have been doing best. And that is simply, to let them try these new whatever-they-are-going-to-be changes have a chance to work and evolve themselves.

From what I've seen here since I've been around (almost 5 years) this forum has continued to evolve in many ways.

All I'm saying is that we as members need to give it a chance, even though on the face of it, it may not immediately look like what you want. I don't know, but whatever is in store, I'm more than game to give it a go and help in any way I can to make it all work.

With all due respect,

Chris K

EDIT:

It is also a tribute to TS that a change in the works like this would inspire our members like Epaminodas to such well-thought out and passionate discourse.

[krissel]

Thanks Chris.

Yes, as mentioned earlier, we have given this a LOT of thought and consideration (yes, there is a difference )

And the decision didn't come easy but we decided that TS was not going in the direction we wanted. We felt we might end up with just a chat board and lose serious technical questions from those who needed help. I wondered myself if I were looking for assistance and came to TS for the first time, would I bother to post seeing all the OTs and banter? Probably not.

It came down to making an attempt to retain the technical help aspect of the board or giving up and become the local grapevine. Instead we figured we would try to split the discussion into two areas that will not restrict our members ability to post but rather to allow an even freer atmosphere where one doesn't have to hold back if they have some pictures of the family dog they'd like to post but don't want to clutter the board with another OT. Many of the threads that have been started on odd subjects have been very interesting and lead to  knowledge one wouldn't expect to normally find, so we don't want to stifle that aspect. Rather we want to encourage it but let it develop within its own environment.

And those who really have a problem will be able to get more immediate help since there won't be so many off topic threads to wade through to find them. In addition, you will notice new links to pages with special FAQs, tips from TS's guru, tacit, as well as kelly's links and most posted Apple Docs. Not all of these pages are ready to go but most will be shortly.

So please give this change a chance. If things don't improve and we find it was better the old way, we can always revert. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Think different.  

[Highmac]

QUOTE(krissel @ May 15 2007, 08:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If things don't improve and we find it was better the old way, we can always revert.

Think different.  

Which answers my main question. I didn't know how easy it would be, technically, to revert. And while I do have reservations about the move to split the board, I'll back the EC in their decision. I have no doubt you had many more things to take into account than we members are privy to.

As someone "guilty" of possibly more than my fair share of OT posts, I can see both points of view. Personally, I've felt that the self-regulation of the OT prefix worked well, and don't recall seeing any complaints on the forum itself. And the Search facility works well here.

Whatever, I wish the people involved the best of luck and look forward to logging in again. Guess it will be well into Wednesday for us in Europe.

Thanks also to all of you for your continuing work to keep TeeEss the best Mac forum on the planet. Whatever our views, I'm sure a little effort on the part of all of us can keep it that way.

Edit to add: Would it be possible after, say, three months, to have a poll to get views on how it's going. (Or any other period that folk feel has given the new system a reasonable chance).

[Epaminondas]

<<Nor are you aware of the complaints by those members who find the amount of "OT" threads disruptive and space wasting.>>

Complainers can be encouraged by the moderators to change the ratio of OT to technical posts by making more technical posts, themselves.

Of course - that takes more time and effort than just complaining.


Question:

What per cent of the total membership has been complaining?

What per cent of the total membership has not been complaining?

You could take that as a vote for change vs. status quo.

I.e. - if 5% of the total membership has been complaining, it might be considered a 5% mandate for change - and a 95% mandate for the status quo.


You don't really have the full picture unless you poll the full membership.  

And you have been careful not to poll the membership.


You have the ability to discuss the matter with the full membership of Techsurvivors and you can easily conduct an online poll of the membership for change vs. status quo.

Why don't you run a simple poll along the following two possibilities (please phrase the alternatives as neutrally as possible - i.e., avoid such words as "new" "improved" or "streamline" or "fix," etc.):

(1) I would like to see Techsurvivors divided into two parts - one technical and one non-technical.

(2) I would like Techsurvivors to remain a single bulletin board for both technical and non-technical posts.

(or however you prefer to neutrally phrase the issue)


See how the membership actually feels before making such a drastic change in the structure of Techsurvivors - which will change the character of Techsurvivors.

After all - that's what this is designed to do.

Change the character of Techsurvivors.


Best regards,

Epaminondas

[dboh]

As one of the less tech savvy here, it doesn't bother me that tech threads get separated from off-topic threads. We're talking about maybe one or two extra clicks, but I think I can handle it. And if I can, anyone can.  

After logging back in and clicking "View New Posts" since my last visit, I noticed that both tech and non-tech threads were listed. If this is how it will remain, maybe that's a workaround for those not happy with the changes.

I've been to more than a few forums on the Internet, and I have to say that the administrators here are among the most helpful I've come across. Discussions of imminent changes are one thing, but critical remarks seem to be counterproductive.

[Gregg]

E, not that it matters now, but you left out the third option. I suspect the plurality of votes would go to "Either way is fine with me". That's just a gut feeling, of course.

[chriskleeman]

QUOTE(Gregg @ May 15 2007, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

E, not that it matters now, but you left out the third option. I suspect the plurality of votes would go to "Either way is fine with me". That's just a gut feeling, of course.

Gregg, how's it working for you in OS 9 so far? What browser(s) are you using?

Good to see your posts!

Chris K

[Gregg]

QUOTE(chriskleeman @ May 15 2007, 11:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gregg, how's it working for you in OS 9 so far? What browser(s) are you using?

Good to see your posts!

Chris K

Don't get excited. As stated in my first "Community Forum" (CF?) post, I'm at work. Not busy today. If I get busted, they'll get an earful.

So, anyway, I'm using Exploder right now. I'll check it out at home, but no guarantee on how soon that will be. My guess is Friday after dinner.

[RHPConsult]

Epaminondas:

You might find it of interest to learn that your essential points were key elements of the Founders' discussions – in the summer of 2000 – (before we even knew we were Founders) when 17 volunteers began (precisely 7 years ago today!) a series of e-mail discussions on what an ideal replacement of the "deceased" Mac "community" which we all had enjoyed on the unreconstructed NoWonder site, might be like, were we to reinvent it.

3000+ e-mails later, on mid-September afternoon, we launched ourselves. Launched ourselves in the format of which you obviously approve.

Those issues were all revisited over the past 3-4 months as the favorable prospect of new software began to incorporate discussions of a change in style/format/impacrt if you will. Unanimity was not achieved in any of those discussions, except for the decision to try it out. Given that we are blessed by having a virtually nonexistent bureaucracy hereabouts, we will do our best to adapt flexibly, as circumstances might warrant.

Your support is enthusiastically solicited to see if the new venture does, in fact, encourage a larger segment of the lurkers we know are out there, to affiliate more formally with the 2500+ members whose good will and interest (the only "dues/fees/tribute" we've ever enjoyed) so to keep TeeEss strong and resilient.

Respectfully,

RHP

[dolphin]

It's new...it's early yet! I am still looking around and sort of finding my way. I don't see any real showstoppers yet. I may be doing something wrong...but I still see some OT threads in the tech side...I think!  I'll hold final comment for a while.

Many thanks to our EC/admins for many many years, months, days, hours of service to our community.

[Highmac]

I would guess the admins have more to worry about at present than moving the OT threads. In the meantime, if we want an OT thread to continue, we could always relaunch it in the Community section.

I'm pleasantly surprised by 1) how quickly the forum returned today, and 2) how relatively troublefree it's been - at least on this side of the counter Thanks folks

[Epaminondas]

RHP,


You got it exactly right the first time.

For all the reasons discussed the first time.

Creating just the right chemistry.

Why destroy that success?


<< Those issues were all revisited over the past 3-4 months as the favorable prospect of new software began to incorporate discussions of a change in style/format/impacrt if you will. >>

If you were able to take 3-4 months to discuss pros and cons - what is the great big honking hurry in implementing this immediately without first discussing the pros and cons for a few months with the general membership?

Why the rush?


< E, not that it matters now, but you left out the third option. I suspect the plurality of votes would go to "Either way is fine with me". That's just a gut feeling, of course. >>

'Cause I didn't think of that.

Sounds good to me.


Best regards,

Epaminondas

[RHPConsult]

With 17 EC members (each of whom have day jobs), distributed across 85 degrees of longitude and 30 degrees of latitude, mol, our "deliberations" are molasses-like.

"Rush" is not an adjective I would apply.