Author Topic: U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...  (Read 4749 times)

Offline Mayo

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Police State Anyone?

"The policies cover hard drives, flash drives, cell phones, iPods, pagers, beepers, and video and audio tapes -- as well as books, pamphlets and other written materials, the report said."

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."  Benjamin Franklin
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 04:31:36 PM by Mayo »

Offline gunug

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2008, 12:42:43 PM »
And take them home and let their children take them to school; sounds like a shakedown to me!   dry.gif
"If there really is no beer in heaven then maybe at least the
computers will work all of the time!"

Offline Gregg

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2008, 12:56:46 PM »
I would have to know the definition of "probable cause" in order to determine my level of outrage.
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Mayo

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2008, 04:17:13 PM »
Read the Reuters article... Digital devices and printed material possessed by anyone (including U.S. citizens) can be capriciously seized when entering the United States.

"U.S. federal agents have been given new powers to seize travelers' laptops and other electronic devices at the border and hold them for unspecified periods the Washington Post reported on Friday.

Under recently disclosed Department of Homeland Security policies, such seizures may be carried out without suspicion of wrongdoing, the newspaper said, quoting policies issued on July 16 by two DHS agencies."

Probable Cause: Reasonable ground for a belief, as, in a criminal case, that the accused was guilty of the crime, or, in a civil case, that grounds for the action existed: used esp. as a defense to an action for malicious prosecution.

That's one more nail in the Bill of Rights' coffin...

Offline Gregg

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2008, 04:24:20 PM »
Yes, I read it. I was just wondering; if the standard was "probable cause" what would then trigger a legal seizure? Reasonable grounds for a belief that a suspect was guilty of some crime would seem to me to be too high of a standard.

Remember that guy who got arrested before he had a chance to use the plastic explosives in his shoe? (Richard Reid, I believe was his name.) He wasn't guilty of anything prior to his arrest other than being very weird and acting suspiciously.
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Mayo

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2008, 04:44:09 PM »
The rationale that you are espousing is a very slippery slope indeed...  I think that Good Old Ben stated it well: the Founding Fathers and Mothers were all to familiar with the arbitrariness of an all-powerful state.  Hence the Bill of Rights.  Read the Fourth Amendment if it has been a while since you took a civics course...

And just in case someone requires the definition of arbitrary...

ar·bi·trar·y– adjective
1.   subject to individual will or judgment without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion: an arbitrary decision.
2.   having unlimited power; uncontrolled or unrestricted by law; despotic; tyrannical: an arbitrary government.
3.   capricious; unreasonable; unsupported: an arbitrary demand for payment.

Offline Gregg

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2008, 08:03:20 PM »
Mayo, we already know that you and I do not see this issue the same way. As I have said before, no amount of persuasive effort on your part is likely to influence my posture on these kinds of issues. I have known of incidents in the past where a suspicious person was not apprehended or helped because of concerns/laws about individual liberty, who then went on to do great harm to others. We only have to think back to the mass murders at Virginia Tech and Northern Illinois (in the town where I grew up!) for recent examples.

I am not trying to persuade you, since I know that would be a fruitless effort. But, I will always come down on the side of restricting the individual (within reason) for the good of society. I know that mistakes will be made, either way a government goes. I also believe that it's possible to go too far in both directions. I'd just prefer not to hear that "we suspected he might be dangerous, but we couldn't touch him, legally" after the plane carrying 279 people is already lost.

The slope is slippery on both sides of the mesa. The trick is to not get too close to either edge.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2008, 08:06:22 PM by Gregg »
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Highmac

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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2008, 04:22:48 AM »
QUOTE(Gregg @ Aug 2 2008, 02:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The slope is slippery on both sides of the mesa. The trick is to not get too close to either edge.


While appreciating the origins of this thread are not political in the generally accepted sense, could I just gently remind you good folks of our guidelines and not get in too deep.... I'd rather see people agree to differ and drop the subject than end up at daggers-drawn wink.gif
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 04:25:17 AM by Highmac »
Neil
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Offline sandbox

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2008, 06:25:54 AM »
Objects in the rear-view mirror may appear closer than they are.

Plastic explosives in ones shoe is hardly a comparative analysis.

The examples you're stating are all domestics. School shooters?


They built this monstrosity called Homeland Security, now they have to figure out how to use it.

"We're shocked by a naked nipple, but not by naked aggression"

Offline gunug

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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2008, 07:37:34 AM »
I'm still convinced that we are our own worst enemies!  I'm not talking about domestic terrorism; but rather the entirely overboard methods to obtain a "dubious" degree of security.  We need to back off on this stuff, not entirely, but with a realistic reappraisal of each step taken.  What do other countries do about such things now?  What do the Israeli's do?  What do they do in Spain right now?  Maybe things are worse overthere but I find it "hard" to believe!

:smiley tripping as he gets off the soapbox:
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 07:39:42 AM by gunug »
"If there really is no beer in heaven then maybe at least the
computers will work all of the time!"

Offline Gregg

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2008, 09:50:58 AM »
QUOTE(Highmac @ Aug 2 2008, 04:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'd rather see people agree to differ and drop the subject ....


I think that's exactly what we have here, and in previous threads by the same participants. smile.gif
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2008, 09:57:08 AM »
QUOTE(sandbox @ Aug 2 2008, 06:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Plastic explosives in ones shoe is hardly a comparative analysis.


Ah, but they're not going to write 1,432 laws to cover every nuance. It will cover "things that could blow up" not shoes, laptops, etc. Sure, specific things might be targeted, but there will always be the "catch all" language that covers the "including, but not necessarily limited to" list.

I'm certainly not in favor of searches for any reason or no reason at all, and taking your laptop for no good reason is outrageous!
« Last Edit: August 02, 2008, 09:58:58 AM by Gregg »
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline gunug

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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2008, 10:07:37 AM »
I'm done!  :zipped mouth smiley:
"If there really is no beer in heaven then maybe at least the
computers will work all of the time!"

Offline sandbox

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U.S. Agents Can Seize Digital Gadgets and Books At Airports...
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2008, 01:56:15 PM »
QUOTE(Gregg @ Aug 2 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(sandbox @ Aug 2 2008, 06:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Plastic explosives in ones shoe is hardly a comparative analysis.


Ah, but they're not going to write 1,432 laws to cover every nuance. It will cover "things that could blow up" not shoes, laptops, etc. Sure, specific things might be targeted, but there will always be the "catch all" language that covers the "including, but not necessarily limited to" list.

I'm certainly not in favor of searches for any reason or no reason at all, and taking your laptop for no good reason is outrageous!


"probable cause" is the key, c4 in your laptop is detectable. If you have a history of bad associations, that's "probable cause" if your coming from an area in the north of Afghanistan, that's "probable cause" if your wearing a T'shirt that say I want to blow something up, that's "probable cause" but to snatch someones "stuff" without accountability is abuse of power.

Under this ruling everyone is assumed guilty and responsible for proving their innocence.

If your a reporter in theater in Iraq and someone doesn't want your story covered, they can snatch your stuff and hold onto it without justification or accountability, all in the name of HomeLand inSecurity.

We can secure ourselves from everything but fear. wink.gif

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." James Madison

Offline Highmac

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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2008, 02:12:27 PM »
I was hoping this thread was going to slide quietly away after Gunug's last post but I've decided to lock it for the time being so that mods/admins on that side of the pond can consider it.
Neil
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