Author Topic: The tortoise took in a stolen G4  (Read 4954 times)

Offline Paddy

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The tortoise took in a stolen G4
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2003, 08:24:15 AM »
OK Beacher - you're absolutely right on some points - there are two classes of forfeiture - what is know as "civil" (in rem) and what is known as criminal or in personam. You're referring to the latter - I was referring to the former. And yes, there do appear to be some horror stories attached to the latter - a lot in fact, now that I go looking. Some of the case law I've looked at has defendants who got off on technicalities - they weren't exactly the "good guys" - which is what this law apparently allows. But there also appear to be plenty of truly innocent victims, who as you noted, have had to go to court to prove their innocence.

"Important differences exist between in rem and in personam forfeiture.  First, while in personam forfeiture requires a criminal conviction of the property's owner, an in rem proceeding only requires the government to prove that the property was used for an illegal purpose or that the property constitutes contraband.  Second, the government bears a lower burden of proof in an in rem forfeiture action than it does in an in personam action.  Since an in personam action is criminal, the government must prove the charges against the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.  In an in rem action, on the other hand, only proof by a preponderance of the evidence is required."

Is there abuse? Undoubtedly. Is it a bad law? Seems counter to many of our basic rights and freedoms - it assumes that the "property" (rather  than the person) is guilty until proven otherwise. It is a law designed to discourage drug trafficking, supposedly. Is it effective? Are any of the drug laws in the US effective? I would reply "not particularly" to the last two items...but that is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

One of the cases under consideration, where the defendants were not convicted (in fact the charges were dropped):

http://www.aoc.state.nc.us/www/public/coa/...02/011357-1.htm

The reasons why the case was dropped are not clear in the ruling from the NC Supreme Court ruling on the property forfeiture - one has to assume/hope that there was sufficient evidence to to prove that the property was used for an illegal purpose. I couldn't find any more information on this particular case, unfortunately. It does appear that the state laws regarding forfeiture vary considerably - NC's are "in personam" - though it would appear that NY's are different again - see the Cato institute book review below. The real trouble comes when the local jurisdiction hands the forfeited property over to the federal agencies...at which point it would appear that different rules may apply. And the federal agency, in these cases, "splits the pot" with the local agency (original arresting/seizing agency). So, there is some incentive to hand things off to the feds, isn't there, if you happen to be an agency that otherwise wouldn't be able to keep the stuff without a conviction? Oh what a tangled web!

More:

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/programs/af.htm (What the DEA says)

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/dea/pu...iefing/3_13.htm

http://reason.com/0107/ci.ml.railway.shtml

Interesting review published in the Cato Journal (journal of the Cato Institute, a conservative/libertarian think tank - whom I often violently disagree with - but in this case, their case for less government is probably well-founded and well-argued.)

http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj16n1-10.html

Where's Randy when we need him??

At any rate, given the timetable for forfeiture, I still think that the 6 weeks in and of itself is highly suspicious - the wheels of justice tend to grind a little more slowly than that.
"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into committees. That'll do them in." ~Author unknown •iMac 5K, 27" 3.6Ghz i9 (2019) • 16" M1 MBP(2021) • 9.7" iPad Pro • iPhone 13

Offline tortoise

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The tortoise took in a stolen G4
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2003, 10:15:18 AM »
Updating on the final outcome, my most recent post on the original DealMac thread that has turned into a rather interesting thread on human behavior. Glad I posted, it has been very revealing, I even sent a link to the owner of the laptop, she might even add her own views on the subject.

Update on the case; police informed me the laptop is being returned to the rightful owner. My client called and rather sheepishly backtracked a bit on the story, his wife bought it at maybe a garage sale or flea market rather than a DEA auction, he was a bit fuzzy and evasive at best on the exact details. He also admitted that the purchase price was $250 to which I replied anyone thinking they can buy a $3000 computer with a bag of related accessories for $250 should remember the old saying about “if it sounds too good to be true”
I did not belabor the point, and I think it is fair to say he got caught in an act of bad judgement at the very least. Apparently the police feel there is not a strong case for receiving stolen property, but they did inform him that if he has the paperwork they would happily assist him in following the money trail in a backwards progression as was suggested above and he might even recover his $250 investment. Does not sound like he is interested in pursuing the issue which again confirms my initial assessment of his role in all of this.  
In our discussion he put most of it on his wife and said that I did the right thing and he had no hard feelings. He even said that if his work laptop (the legit CompaQ that is here awaiting a replacement HD) was ever stolen he would hope someone would do the same for him. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt, but I also feel his demeanor has two primary motives. One is to cover his ass with the police and two to see to it that I finish the repairs on his CompaQ before he might express any displeasure with my actions. Perhaps I am too cynical but the changing stories make me suspect of any statements at this point.
On a final note to leagle, your comments and analysis were concise and interesting. I guess I owe you an apology for my blanket condemnation of the legal profession and government employees as a whole. That’s the trouble with generalizations and I know there are always exceptions and even good moral people who practice law. It is just so hard to remember when one looks at the collection of lawyers in Washington DC that we all affectionately refer to as our government of the people.
Cheers Dale (Semi-retired)

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Offline RHPConsult

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The tortoise took in a stolen G4
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2003, 10:33:04 AM »
Tortoise has put  the "final chapter" on the DealMac thread.

It, as well as the other posts, remain mighty interesting . . .

Offline Gary S

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The tortoise took in a stolen G4
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2003, 10:44:42 AM »


Spike Lee would be proud of you! "Do The Right Thing".


Looks like he uses OSX too. wink.gif
Gary S

Offline beacher

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The tortoise took in a stolen G4
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2003, 12:50:14 PM »
Thanks for the research, Paddy. . .Guess we both learned from this one, huh? biggrin.gif And once again, Tortoise, we're proud to have you in our ranks!

Offline Paddy

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The tortoise took in a stolen G4
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2003, 03:45:06 PM »
Tortoise - ya did good - glad your client isn't mad at you, but as you say...one does have to wonder about the guy. Either he was extremely gullible or was engaging in what is referred to in 4-year-olds as "magical thinking". My bet's on the latter. He just didn't want to know...operating on the principal that what he didn't know couldn't hurt him! It's a very "me-first and to heck with you" attitude (back to the four-year-olds again). Not a pleasant thing to discover about anyone - client or otherwise.

And yes, Beacher, it proved to be an interesting bit of research. (and BTW, I mixed up "in rem" and "in personam" in my first sentence - "in rem" is the civil type of forfeiture) - potentially scary stuff. Remind me not to carry $646,000 with me next time I get on an Amtrak train! wink.gif
"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into committees. That'll do them in." ~Author unknown •iMac 5K, 27" 3.6Ghz i9 (2019) • 16" M1 MBP(2021) • 9.7" iPad Pro • iPhone 13

Offline kelly

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The tortoise took in a stolen G4
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2003, 06:56:11 PM »
Kudos tortise. Well done. smile.gif

Think how happy the original owner will be. smile.gif
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