need HTML help with TS page

[krissel]

I'm slowly doing over the TS site pages and I've spent the last couple hours going crazy trying to eliminate a large space that occurs on  this page.

It's the obviously large break after the first paragraph and before the graphic.

In Go-Live I built the page with the layout grid and text blocks with no spaces in between. It looks OK in the preview in Go-Live but has that large space in IE 5.1.6 and Netscape 7.

Could someone take a look at the html and see what is causing this?

Thanks.    

EDIT: see below
 
 [ 03-19-2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: krissel ]

[krissel]

Never mind, I redid it in another form.

It still is driving me nuts as to why it did that.

   

I renamed the file and it is now  here.

 If anyone is bored and wishes to look it over, please do.

[kps]

Hi krissel, have a look at this:

Free GoLive Book

Just found it on MacCentral, but the servers are too busy at the moment for the download.

[krissel]

Thanks  kps. Looks like a great freebee.    

I think I will wait til I go to my parent's house to download as I can only do about 32k at best. They get closer to 50 so I would save a couple hours.
   

I have the manual that came with the app but, large as it is, it's not written very clearly and poorly organized. It took me forever to find some simple tasks I needed to accomplish. If they had only included a few more graphics or drawings of the tools and icons and locations of the same, it wouldn't be so darn confusing.

[Diana]

Hi Kris,

I know I'm late to the party..  , but I like a mystery too.

I looked at the source, (haven't seen to much of what GoLive produces) and the parts that were/are giving you trouble are all the height attributes embedded in the <table>, <tr> and <td> tags. WYSIWYG editors resort to tricks like that to allow you the precise placements you ask for.

I know I'm not gonna convert anyone 'cause it takes some time to learn the necessary HTML, but just for fun, and to demonstrate a point, I've recreated your archive page by hand. GoLive used multiple nested tables with all kinds of goobledygook that isn't even HTML. The by-hand page is only one table. The GoLive page is 11K and by-hand one is 8K. Not a huge difference true, but it shows just how many characters one wouldn't have to type. Several Kb could be further removed by the use of an external or even internal style sheet because then you wouldn't have to state fonts for every table cell.

 By-hand Page

Look at the code for each version of the page to see how/why the GoLive tags were actually inhibiting your design, when by hand, one can just simple <br> s to adjust spacing. Another thing I did was state a whole row's attributes in the row tag intstead of repeating them endlessly in the individual cell tags.

I find that it may be true that using a WYSIWYG editor may allow one to create a page quicker that doing it by hand, but the the time isn't that different. If I have lots of pages say for a new site, I get the first one the way I want, then use that code to make a template that I can just name/save/rename/save/rename/save etc. *grin...I bet I can do that faster then a WYSIWYG editor.    Once the page is done, editing in a WYSIWYG editor takes waaaay more time. First you have to open it and if it's like NetObjects Fusion, that takes forever. When editing by hand, you can use a simple text editor, see through the code easily cause it isn't cluttered, then edit/close/ftp before the WYSIWYG editor is even fully open..(many times). Over the life of a page/site, those quickie edits are what eat up my time.    

I sure don't mean to preach about editing methods.      , but if you want to try doing some by hand, I'll be glad to help.

see ya,

[Xairbusdriver]

Don't have to convince me, Diana, Vijay did that a long time ago - that's when I broke down and bought BBEdit. But one of my main reasons was not being able to justify the cost of those WYSIWYG editors. BBEdit has so many tools that make things so easy.

And I know what you mean about making minor changes, I do that at least 4 times a week, not counting the times I add  image(s) (and it's thumbnail(s)).

Using a "professional" editor for HTML reminds me of an old Apple II game where you 'programmed' a set of rules for robots and then turned them loose. You didn't always know what was going to happen to end the game. Sorta like that with these programs, with so many browsers implementing the standards in so many ways, it's sometimes a shot in the dark 'designing' a page. With those nice editors, you may never be able to figure out what is causing the problem.

Oh well...

Whatever you did, Kris, the page/site looks great! I'm just glad we have people like you who take the time to keep it improving! THANKS, 'GUYS!'        

Jim C.

[krissel]

Gee, thanks Diana!

I'm really a neophyte at this and have much to learn. My biggest problem with that page was the fact that I didn't just start it from scratch. I was trying to convert a page originally created by someone else and made the mistake of doing it in pieces rather than all in one. I should have used one single table but thought I was saving time by making three separate ones. That was bad idea.

I will study your page and compare the two. The use of stylesheets does save a lot of unecessary stuff. There is also a way to strip unneeded code within GoLive but I was so tired this AM I couldn't read the manual sensibly and decided just to get it up and see what it looked like.

I have tons yet to study and many more sleepless nights to come.  Thanks again.

[Paddy]

Erm...I don't know about the speed issue there Diana...I use GoLive (and do some hand-editing at times too, both directly in GoLive's source window and in BBEdit) - but when I create a site, usually the first thing I do is create a site template, which greatly simplifies all further updates. Every page created using that template can be updated by simply changing the template. I don't think you can do that with simple hand coding can you? (without getting into scripting etc...at which point I'm in way over my head) I know that BBEdit allows you to create templates with include placeholders etc., so I suppose you may be able to achieve some of the same functionality, but it seems like a lot more work! One thing that I need for a couple of my sites is the ability to produce nested templates - Dreamweaver does it, but GoLive doesn't. I hope Adobe sees fit to include this with the next version of GoLive, which should be along some time this year (I hope) if they follow their usual 18 month update cycle.

Anyway, as for the tables issue - if you want to see some real doozies, try turning an Excel or Word document or even worse, a Publisher document with tables into an HTML page using the built-in conversions. Worst darn HTML I've EVER seen! The problems Krissel was having had more to do with how the document was originally structured, (which is up to the designer) - not an inherent flaw in GoLive.

After a year and a half at this web site stuff, I know that there is WAAAY more I don't know than I do know - there are some amazingly complicated web sites out there! I just keep learning - which is what keeps it interesting. One of my problems is that all of the sites I manage are pretty content-intensive, requiring constant attention, leaving me a lot less time than I'd like to investigate all the things I'd like to find out more about.

Just found an interesting site with a bunch of CSS templates. Looking at them all in Safari is an interesting experience...Safari obviously has some trouble with CSS!! As does IE, on this page:

http://www.endamcg.com/main/templates/temp..._nested_box.htm

Camino did fine with it though. Check out the other templates (click on the "view more templates") and try them in different browsers. Obviously, even fairly straightforward CSS isn't always interpreted correctly yet.

Safari makes a mess of the main page - the text all runs out of the main text box into a gray area below. Somehow, not what he intended! Interesting exercise (and lesson on the wisdom of checking your work in as many browsers and on as many platforms as humanly possible!)

[enzo]

Forgive a newbie posting here but just wanted to comment:
that's actually my site that you posted there and it's IE only unfortunatly. Some of us don't have the resources to test in different browsers on different systems.    

Safari: About what you said about Safari's trouble with CSS, I have been informed that that is one of the more complient browsers, whether this is true or not I have no experience of.
"lesson on the wisdom of checking your work in as many browsers and on as many platforms as humanly possible"
Unfortunatly the dream of completely separating presentation from content is failing because it's even more important now that sites are cross-browser checked.
You don't get half the problems with table based layouts! We also have the problem that it's easier than ever for people to publish on the net, people who live in a 1 browser world.    

Templates: "Every page created using that template can be updated by simply changing the template. I don't think you can do that with simple hand coding can you?"
Oh yes of course, all my sites are hand coded from scratch and all employ the use of templates without scripting. Use SSI, it's the easiest server side language there is. My crappy site that you posted there is template based. (SSI is not scripting, it's just basic includes and easier than html even!)

IMHO the only way to build a site and achieve total control is by hand coding!
   

Thanks for enduring...

[Diana]

Hi Paddy..  

That link to those CSS templates is reaallly cool.   I'll be back there often.

I agree with you about those programs that will create HTML for you when they weren't even designed to create HTML..(Word/Publisher etc). They're awful. Even Front Page is awful.    

My speed issues with editing in any WYSIWYG editor are probably very personal....my brain works in weird ways and WYSIWYG editors inhibit my thinking...that will slow me down faster than a brick wall.       I spent over a year trying to make NetObjects Fusion my working program and found that a form of "depression" set in and my desire to create just about disappeared. I'm back doing things by hand now and enjoying it much more. Taking old NetObject sites and stripping cruddy code is cathartic.

But, I've also discovered PHP. You describe scripting as "over your head", but I promise...this is not. There are many freely available scripts to get you started, but one of the easiest and most time profitable uses for PHP is to use it in the same manner of ServerSideIncludes. The benefit of PHP over SSI is a server overhead issue. PHP is much gentler on the server. I use a simple bit of code:

 

and that code calls whatever "templates" I've made. Linked style sheets are also tremendous time savers. I have a site with a huge number of pages and it uses several templates, some for copyright, some for navigation, some for page headers/footers, and one for style. Each template changes the whole site when it's changed. The cool part is that each template is just HTML/javascript, nothing fancy. As large as that site is, it would take NetObjects literally several minutes to open it, but if the area code around Dallas, Tx changes (yet again), all I have to do is open my hand editor..(quick) change 1 to 3 extremely small files, close and FTP. All of the nearly 100 pages will change immediately...and truly, before NetObjects has finished opening.  

My biggest gripe against NetObjects in particular and other WYSIWYG editors in general is that they keep the sites in a proprietary format. I can't make a by-hand edit in an external editor or on the server without having to remember to do it again in NetObjects. Work twice..yup..makes sense to me.     This also prevents a site owner from working on the site with me. Only the holder of the proprietary file can do the work.  The other big problem is that NetObjects in particular will often "corrupt" these proprietary files. This has happened to me several times and whole sites were ruined locally. I learned to keep backups, but even those take significant amounts of time to restore. The screams heard on the NetObjects newsgroups were loud and clear, but there seems to be no fix...only careful planning to deal with it when it happens will protect you. All this for nothing more than HTML that can be done by hand. Seems ironic to me.

Enzo, welcome to TS..   I just noticed your addition to our discussion and I want to thank you for all that CSS work. It's facinating. For the most part, all your templates work well with Mozilla 1.3b. There is an oddity about the page where all the templates are described though. If you want, I"ll put up a screen shot.  What should be the footer appears to bisect the page in the middle of the template list. Let me know if you're curious.

Wowwy....did I get on a soapbox or what?       No need to answer..I know I did and I apologize if anyone was bored. *stepping down*

see ya,

[Xairbusdriver]

Diana,
It seems that on some days, I forget to put on my shoes, instead I put on a pair of 'soapboxes!'            

Jim C.

[o][a][p][you know I really like te little check-box over at MFI that says "Mark as edited"][o][x][e]
 
 [ 03-20-2003, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: airbusdriver ]

[Diana]

airbusdriver ,

I have little "strappy" soapboxes for this HTML stuff, some lightweight "tennis shoe" type boxes for child education issues, (they're hard to get off though), some fairly heavy duty army boot looking things for stompin' on stupid TV reporter/pundits..(that's for wading through the cynic puddles when I'm feeling mean)..and a few others taking up room in my closet for the odd subject that I may have some strong feelings about.

I try not to put any of them on most of the time since I like going barefoot, but sometimes I get carried away.      

I appreciate it when others put up with me.      

seeya,

[enzo]

Hi Diana,

Thanks for the offer for the screenshot. I actually recieved a screenshot a few weeeks ago from a Safari user. The same problem occurs on a few pages, without having more than 1 browser (don't ask why) I can't debug and fix it.
The only solution is switching back to table based layouts!

[Paddy]

Aha. So...maybe I could figure out those server side includes and solve my nested template issue. Hmmm...I'm glad to hear that it isn't difficult, though I guess it depends on what you're used to and your general level of comfort and knowledge. As noted, the more I get into it, the more I realize I DON'T know. I did various Google searchs on templates before I posted, wondering if I was missing something - seems I didn't search on the right topic and so came away still thinking that this was harder/more complicated than I thought.

I've been meaning to dig up a good server side include for the "last modified" bit on each of my pages, because the Javascript one I'm using now works fine in everything but Netscape. Now I know where to begin looking.

GoLive has all sorts of Dynamic Content abilities, but because I assumed that I didn't need them for most of what I'm doing, I hadn't really investigated them. However, I think I'll start with the simple script in the code approach, as I've done with any Javascript. Handcode. Then I understand what I've done (or at least there is a greater possibility of same). Of course, this all comes back to my need to get the content out there, which was more important, and remains a priority over the time I would love to devote to understanding the options more fully. Sigh. I need a clone!

I can also see Jim's great big grin from atop his soap box (giggle)...funny thing though...I'm ok wih letting GoLive do my HTML for me, and quite sure that, for me, it is faster than doing it by hand and I've learned how to edit the source code with BBEdit and by hand, but when it comes to stuff I have no clue about (scripts of all sorts) my comfort level disappears - I've had GoLive create some real lulus (some of their proprietary "actions") which don't validate and don't work in all browsers.

So, I can see both sides of it. The stuff that GoLive hides "under the hood" (proprietary stuff, like Diana referred to) I try to stay away from - that stuff I feel I DO need to learn, if only to maintain better control of it. And it's a slow process.

Enzo, I had no idea that the creator of the CSS site was a TS reader! Welcome to TS! I think what you've done is a great exercise - don't get me wrong. My comments about looking at sites with as many different browsers still stands - even if you get on someone else's computer to do it. I have a Pentium 1 machine rescued from the recycling that I use entirely for the purpose of being able to check my sites on PC browsers, since all my work is done on Macs. We're more than happy to send you screen shots of "what happens" in different browsers, if you'd find that helpful. We've done it for those who don't have the capability of running the various OS X browsers.

Of course, looking at the site statistics for my most-visited site, the North Andover school district main site which gets just over 100 unique visitors per day right now, it is very clear that at least 85% of the world is using some flavor of IE - though almost 13% of the browsers can't seem to be identified by GoStats, so I'm not sure if that means they're using later versions of NS, which GoStats doesn't seem to recognize. And 90% of them (my visitors anyway) are doing it from a non-Mac platform - largely some flavor of Windows. So, making the CSS work in IE is absolutely essential - and the problems that occur in other browsers may have more to do with the non-compliance of the browser than any error on your part.

Enzo, I now plan to spend some time at your extremely useful-looking site - the server side includes is where I'll start!  

Any other suggestions Diana? (Now you've done it...those photos ain't gonna get edited and online for a few more hours!)

[Diana]

Hi Paddy,...I'll try not to distract you more.    

But, there is one thing you should do. Call the server admin where you host your sites and ask if server side includes are enabled for your account, and ask if PHP is installed and available to you. PHP is common but not everyone provides it. Server side includes can be a server drain and not all admins allow them.

If you have access to both, then you should be set to go.

see ya