Poll

Do you think it is wrong for Apple to include Safari in their PC Software Update, even if the user never installed it before?

"Yes, it is wrong; Apple is 'pushing' Safari"
9 (39.1%)
"No, Apple is not doing anything wrong"
5 (21.7%)
"I really don't give a "whoot" about the problems of PC users... that's why I bought/use a Mac!"
9 (39.1%)

Total Members Voted: 20

Author Topic: Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple  (Read 7281 times)

Offline kimmer

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2008, 01:28:22 PM »
QUOTE(Gregg @ Mar 24 2008, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Shhhhh! Mayo's trying to sleep. (I could tell you how to use Expose for that....) wink.gif

I think he needs a cup of java. wink.gif

QUOTE
P.S. I bet there's some way to get that little accent mark to show up over the 'e'....

Yup ... É or é ... hold down the OPTION key and then press the E key, the accent mark will show up. Then type the letter E (upper or lower case) and you have the accent mark.

Another (and easier way) is to look up in your finder menu bar for the flag (or at least that what I have and your mileage may vary) ... click and hold and select SHOW CHARACTER PALATTE and you'll find all the accent marks, odd punctuation and everything else under the sun. Well - almost everything.

QUOTE
Speaking of E; long time no see.

Yeah, I miss him.

Offline Gregg

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2008, 06:51:38 PM »
QUOTE(kimmer @ Mar 25 2008, 01:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
look up in your finder menu bar for the flag (or at least that what I have and your mileage may vary) ... click and hold and select SHOW CHARACTER PALATTE and you'll find all the accent marks, odd punctuation and everything else under the sun. Well - almost everything.


Didn't have the flag until I went to the Edit menu and selected Special Characters... Then it just showed up. I forgot how to customize the menu bar. Maybe it will come to me if I fool around with it a little more.
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline kimmer

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2008, 07:06:59 PM »
QUOTE
Didn't have the flag until I went to the Edit menu and selected Special Characters... Then it just showed up. I forgot how to customize the menu bar. Maybe it will come to me if I fool around with it a little more.
ROFL! Now I know how I wound up with the flag in the menu bar. HAHAHA  I do remember selecting special characters, found what I wanted and went on with things. The next day I noticed the flag and accidentally clicked it while on my way to use Spotlight and there was the menu. I found it handy, so I left it. Thanks for answering that puzzle.

There's so many little ways to do so many things and it's hard to keep track of them all. biggrin.gif

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2008, 12:14:03 PM »
QUOTE(kimmer @ Mar 25 2008, 07:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There's so many little ways to do so many things and it's hard to keep track of them all. biggrin.gif


yes.gif
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline antony

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 11:18:02 AM »
Late to this topic here. However, I'd like to add my two cents.

Firefox is far worse than Apple's Software Update.

By default, Firefox will automatically update your software to whatsoever release they deem fit. Under default setting, users will see a message dialogue similar to following:


What can you do?
Click either available button, Firefox will be updated at next re-launch. Users are left with no choice but to install update at Mozilla's wish.

(detail in Firefox's (semi) forced updating policy? and Firefox's unethical forcing users to update dirty tactic)

Of course, some might argue that using the latest patch is important, however, there are users who simply do not want to rush for the latest or being pushed. Some may defend that such setting can be disabled, however, not every user is confident on tweaking the Preferences setting nor can be bother to fiddle through all settings.

Apple's Safari message in Software Update does not force users to install it. Users can still choose not to install Safari when following dialogue comes up:


In short, Mozilla is far worse than Apple in terms of getting users to install software. Unbelievably, Mozilla CEO even had the nerve to make a fuss about Apple. (You might be interested in my blog entry.)

Offline krissel

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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2008, 03:21:56 PM »
The first thing I do with new apps is disable the automatic check for new versions. I'd rather do it manually and have full control of whether and when.

smile.gif


A Techsurvivors founder

Offline Xairbusdriver

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 09:35:10 PM »
I'm assuming you don't have this in your FF 2.0.0.x Prefs.
[attachment=933:Firefox_...ate_Pref.jpg]
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system
CAUTION! Childhood vaccinations cause adults! :yes:

Offline antony

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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 11:02:57 PM »
The main point that I have been complaining is the default setting. There are a number of users not comfortable to make any changes to default setting, as well as some simply missed out the setting when look through. The translation: a dirty tactic that forces users to install whatsoever updates they wish.

Offline Xairbusdriver

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Competition Wars... Mozilla vs. Apple
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2008, 04:11:43 PM »
OK. wallbash.gif I understand and agree with you 110%! My wife is eactly who you are talking about. blush-anim-cl.gif rolleyes.gif
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system
CAUTION! Childhood vaccinations cause adults! :yes:

Offline Mayo

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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2008, 04:21:29 PM »
QUOTE(antony @ Apr 14 2008, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The main point that I have been complaining is the default setting.


I just like to point out that on the Web underlining something generally means that it is a hyperlink.

If you want to emphasize a term online it is clearer if it is italicized.

Now I am going back to  sleep1.gif
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 04:22:50 PM by Mayo »

Offline cdub1988

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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2008, 07:24:56 PM »
Antony,

I disagree. I have to at least have a previous install of Firefox to even get that.

The whole issue from what I've read is that Apple is pushing Safari without having an existing install.

Safari's a great browser. I prefer Firefox.

But that's my pref. Prolly not yours, and that's fine.

Hopefully, however, the topic can be objective.

I don't disagree that the default setting to update Firefox is annoying. But again, at least it's only happening because I chose to install Firefox.

How many users out there will miss the fact that they didn't install Safari originally and see that Software Update and click through it unknowingly?

I'm not going to venture to guess the percentage, but I would say I'll bet it's higher than you might think.

This is where the conspiracy theorist in me kicks in.....biggrin.gif

But seriously, don't you think Apple is playing the odds on that?

THAT in and of itself is my problem with the scenario.

I'm seriously not looking to start a flame war, here. Just trying to be objective about it.

I've got no problem with Apple or anyone else with software updates as long as they aren't attempts to "slip under the radar" like this appears to me.

Take care, all.

Chris
Umm, I'm a nerd.

Offline Gregg

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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2008, 08:20:26 PM »
QUOTE(Mayo @ Apr 15 2008, 04:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(antony @ Apr 14 2008, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The main point that I have been complaining is the default setting.


I just like to point out that on the Web underlining something generally means that it is a hyperlink.

If you want to emphasize a term online it is clearer if it is italicized.



Or you can use bold or color as well as a different font.

But, thanks for pointing that out. It never occured to me that underlining could be confusing. Are you suggesting that it should not be an option on TS?

Seems to me that hyperlink text used to be a different color as well as underlined. That would be one way to make the distinction. Of course, one could still simulate that effect.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 08:21:44 PM by Gregg »
Ya gotta applaud those bunnies for sacrificing their hearing just so some guy in Cupertino can have better TV reception.

Offline antony

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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2008, 07:45:51 AM »
QUOTE(Mayo @ Apr 16 2008, 07:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE(antony @ Apr 14 2008, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The main point that I have been complaining is the default setting.


I just like to point out that on the Web underlining something generally means that it is a hyperlink.

If you want to emphasize a term online it is clearer if it is italicized.

Now I am going back to  sleep1.gif
In another forum, I once emphasised with bold. It then turns out too strong and resulted many complaints.

I'd like to point out that in many websites, hyperlinks are not just underlined, but also have a different colour associated to it.

Offline antony

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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2008, 07:59:41 AM »
QUOTE(cdub1988 @ Apr 16 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Antony,

I disagree. I have to at least have a previous install of Firefox to even get that.

The whole issue from what I've read is that Apple is pushing Safari without having an existing install.

Safari's a great browser. I prefer Firefox.

But that's my pref. Prolly not yours, and that's fine.

Hopefully, however, the topic can be objective.

I don't disagree that the default setting to update Firefox is annoying. But again, at least it's only happening because I chose to install Firefox.

How many users out there will miss the fact that they didn't install Safari originally and see that Software Update and click through it unknowingly?

Chris,

You have good points.

However, there's one bit that I found it unacceptable.

Under Firefox's default setting, once a message like following pops up, the user cannot reject or even postpone the update to a convenient time. This leaves users no options but to update Firefox now or at next re-launch.



Apple's Software Update and many other software updates, users were given chances to accept the update or to cancel it. Apple does not force Windows users to install Safari, as comparing to Firefox forces users to install updates at Mozilla's wishes.

As for users clicking the Install button unknowingly? All users should read the dialogues, it is just like signing a contract without reading all the fine prints.

Not intended to continue on the flame war, but to reply to your points.

Offline cdub1988

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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2008, 12:49:31 PM »
antony,

No flaming felt here.....biggrin.gif

No, I agree with your point about the updates in Firefox.....but again, that's a pref setting and nothing more.

And you're right about users needing to read what they're installing, but I have to ask myself, "What is the percentage of people that will realistically read that stuff verbatim, detail for detail, and not just go ahead and click NEXT....."

That was my point. I think there's probably a lot larger number who would just click NEXT, even though they shouldn't.

Once that happens, it could be bad news if they didn't want it installed......

But again, looking at that pic you posted, if I were a user and didn't know better, well, you can figure the rest out.....biggrin.gif

Take care, antony...

C
Umm, I'm a nerd.