Author Topic: Congratulations America!!  (Read 13412 times)

Offline Xairbusdriver

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Congratulations America!!
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2008, 05:07:16 PM »
I know from my experience, that our homeowners coverage is based on 'replacement costs.' That's not likely to go down until a much deeper recession. OTOH, most 'property' taxes are based, almost solely, on the 'value' of said property. If there has been a recent sale of your own property, it's pretty hard to argue about that amount. Sales of 'similar' properties in the area are usually the standard for raising and lowering the tax (if that ever happens!). And the taxing agencies have no more incentive to lower 'fees' than the insurers; their costs of doing business are not going down like the inflated price of many houses. Their only other alternative is to cut services. But then, everybody is affected! And most of them are voters, even if not home owners!

All in all, I don't expect to see much lowering of insurance costs around here, but we've also had much less of the price inflation than in other parts of the country. However, I do expect to see nearly the same decrease in house prices because even more people in this area took the 'you're alive, therefore qualified' loans that were encouraged for too many years. Of course, that led to greed from many companies/brokers. And as Paul says in I Timothy 6:10 (The Message), "Lust for money brings trouble and nothing but trouble." The key word there is "lust," an uncontrolled desire for more and more of something that may even be good and useful. Certainly appears to be relevant to today's mess, IMHO.

BTW, I am proud of the way this thread has progressed and by the obvious restraint and care by all posters (not counting me, of course!). To be honest, I did express my fears about the thread to a few. wink.gif They turned out to be correct! clap.gif
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 05:08:33 PM by Xairbusdriver »
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Offline kimmer

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« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2008, 07:38:40 PM »
QUOTE(Xairbusdriver @ Nov 14 2008, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know from my experience, that our homeowners coverage is based on 'replacement costs.'

We just renewed our homeowners insurance and that's what they told me. Our premium only went up a few bucks, and our coverage went up around $10,000. I felt it was a pretty good deal.

QUOTE
OTOH, most 'property' taxes are based, almost solely, on the 'value' of said property.

Our tax bill arrived while we were traveling, and it has an odd increase ($11,000 in "improvements" -- but we haven't changed a thing).  Thinking.gif  There wasn't time to protest it before the cheapest due date, so I paid it in full. This next week, we'll go up and ask about our bill. We do know that here the value is based on the prices/values from last April, so that's way out of line compared to now. There haven't been any sales around us, just more homes/lots listed for sale -- but nothing is moving. The house just around the corner has been on the market for over 2 years and not even a nibble. The lots up the street are outrageously priced and won't sell for that kind of money until maybe 2058.

QUOTE
BTW, I am proud of the way this thread has progressed and by the obvious restraint and care by all posters ....

Couldn't agree more. I am learning things and finding this thread informative and educational.

Offline sandbox

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« Reply #47 on: November 15, 2008, 06:46:22 AM »
OK now that I threw you a curve, lets get  back to politics.  Devilish2.gif not...
Paddy, we also have a 3% ceiling on annual tax hikes but it only applies to home owners who reside in the building, not commercial property. So rental/leased houses followed the value and if the value went up 500% so did the taxes. Insurance follows replacement cost but in an inflated market the cost to replace the building is also inflated. As the prices have gone down this year my insurance followed. Last year Florida restructured their tax system under a referendum and so far it seems to have satisfied the masses though some do complain. For example, I have owned this property for 15 years, bought it cheap, bought it with cash. So, in 15 years the maximum tax increase this place could have is 45%, even though it has increased in value 1500% ???or so. The folks next door bought their place 5 years ago and paid 150,000 dollars more for the same house. So they pay a disproportional amount of tax over my tax, on a 150,000 of value that i don't have to pay for. Is it fair? No But that's life. Last year they past a law that would allow me to move to another location and take my tax structure with me. So a new house or location would only receive the taxes equal to the old house. This was a social engineering act to move property around and keep the real estate market hot and attractive.

So here we are safe from the wolves, and all around us there are properties foreclosing. Not in my neighborhood but in the general region. Most of the properties here were settled and only a few brought new SUV's, so there are no auctions just yet. If I were 20 years younger I would be buying up property right now, some of the auctions I've attended have brought 20¢ on the dollar, just amazing.

The big picture....to solve the housing crunch they need a bankruptcy bill to let the courts settle the disputes and catch any culprits that may have caused the problem. Then they need to restructure the loans, first the interest rate and then principle if necessary to keep folks in their homes. Once the housing become stable they need to create incentives to purchase existing housing stock with long term low interest loans held in local banks and guaranteed by the treasury.

Now here's the political part, they need to place a Moratorium on foreclosures as they did in Massachusetts and just as Mrs. Clinton suggested they do 4-6 months ago. This is not a political position it is a stop gap measure, and it needs to happen quickly. Mind you, it won't effect me one way or another, but I do know how to stop the bleeding. Once you stop the bleeding you then you give pain relief, find out what happened, and hand them the bill later. Right now all the treasury is doing is rewarding the people who cut us open. wink.gif
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 02:18:08 PM by Paddy »

Offline kcourt

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« Reply #48 on: November 16, 2008, 04:02:22 PM »
mad.gif  I personally don't trust any politicians. They are all talk and seem to be to be very self-serving, no matter what the party. Since I am in my 70's, I have seen them come and go - they are all the same, IMO.

Glad it is over so we can get on with our lives!  thumbup.gif

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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2008, 10:29:47 AM »

Offline Paddy

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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2008, 02:43:49 PM »
Interesting analysis/thoughts from Kevin Hassett at Bloomberg:

Recession Will Be Less Damaging Without Bailouts
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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2008, 08:06:01 PM »
Well Paddy I think it's neither this nor that but it's something other than what's proposed.
I was a Bethlehem steel worker in Buffalo when they started closed shop and outsourced to Japan in the 70's, so I have a pretty good idea what it’s like on the ground.
I think a bailout is over reaching as is bankruptcy, I do see a conditional loan and restructuring. Since I live in the retirement capital of the world I can speak from experience about the huge amount of retired autoworkers down here and the devastating effect that a collapse will create. This is a very good example of why health insurance should not be tied to employment. If they create a reasonable healthcare system and carry the autoworkers contracts forward the Big Three would have their own legs to stand on. We need real universal healthcare, similar to Canada's, and we need it now, if we expect to compete against nations like Japan. Japan has universal health and a generous pension system that is not tied to the employer.
Look into the history of why healthcare was attached to employment to begin with and you'll see why it has outlived it's usefulness. If we don't save the Big Three a slippery slope will take down one industry after another, some that are vital to security. Power shifted to the Import/Export trades after the auto companies had commited themselves to employment contracts, and it was unregulated trade policies as much as anything else that began to destroy the middle class.
When we choose to let Toyota export cars we should have created a level playing field, instead of exploiting cheap labor.

It was very expensive to live in Detroit in the 60's and 70's an autoworker had to make a real paycheck just to stay alive. again not a condition that the Big Three is responsible for but were charged with the cost of living. and it goes on....


http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

http://money.cnn.com/2008/11/17/news/companies/gm_fixes/

Offline krissel

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« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2008, 04:08:14 AM »
QUOTE(sandbox @ Nov 17 2008, 11:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>



QUOTE
There is a better way to fix a broken financial system. Treasury's plan to buy up the toxic debts never made sense and should be immediately scrapped


This article was published on the 13th and there is a notation that it has been updated. But on the 12th the Treasury decided not to buy up the bad mortgages.

Somebody wasn't paying attention.  smile.gif


BTW, regarding home owners' insurance... as Mark mentioned, inflated values in some areas do have application to replacement costs but there are also AVC (Actual Cash Value) as well as MV (Market Value) policies. These are not common and usually are cheaper (the former) or more costly (the latter) but do exist. While the ACV usually applies to contents it can apply to the structure as well.  Just double check your own policy to see what is covered.

Note also that 'guaranteed' replacement is not being offered in most of the country anymore. Instead a fixed amount plus a percentage for overage is the norm. If you have a much older house with amenities that are hard to duplicate with today's construction methods you most likely won't have guaranteed replacement only an amount that would replace a house of similar size and stature.


The auto-makers unfortunately 'chose' the worst time to face bankruptcy. Refinancing for restructuring would be rather hard to find in the private market in the present economy. Should they just be liquidated?  That's an easy answer to someone just looking at it as any other business. But consider if they do just evaporate, the foreign makers will take all that much more of our dollars. True, they have plants here in the US which employ our people but they can't make up the difference and hire all the laid off Big 3 workers. And the trickle-down of their paychecks into the economy is equally valid to consider.

On the other hand we can't just hand them money without a big say in what is done with it. Without a clear idea of how they will use the financing and change the focus of their business we might as well burn the bucks.  I'm generally not one to like the government involved in such things but these are particularly difficult times and it's hard to see the benefit of inaction. Thinking.gif

My, what interesting times we live in.  smile.gif
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 04:09:07 AM by krissel »


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Offline dboh

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« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2008, 07:22:50 AM »
QUOTE(krissel @ Nov 18 2008, 05:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But consider if they do just evaporate, the foreign makers will take all that much more of our dollars.


It's not such a good situation for foreign makers either. They will suffer if the Big Three disappear because the suppliers that supply both domestic and foreign carmakers will also disappear.

With millions of jobs potentially affected, I don't see how assistance is even being debated in Washington. Why not tie assistance to top-to-bottom restructuring?

Offline Highmac

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« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2008, 01:22:42 AM »
On-the-ground observation from the UK - my son works for a BMW dealership which has just laid off two staff. However, he says his branch is lucky since two neighbouring dealerships - one Honda and one Seat - have simply closed their doors. I would imagine that scenario is being repeated all round the world at present.

The only vehicle-builder I've heard of taking on workers is in Coventry. It builds armoured cars for the Army to use in Iraq and Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 01:27:24 AM by Highmac »
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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2008, 01:29:44 AM »
The big three are only asking for a pool of patient money, bridge loan, to be set aside and used as needed between now and 1-1-10. Each company still has cash, Ford seems to think they have enough to weather the storm, but just in case, it wants access to cash if the banks do not make it available. They need to secure their in-house finance companies, like GMAC, which got caught in the crisis investing in the highest rate of return at the time, which was housing.

They have already received 25 billion to set up shop for low mileage cars and are ready to compete with imports, but they're labor contracts, retirement, healthcare, and buyout contracts keep them out of the running.

Each company expect to payout up to 3 billion a quarter but they also expect to reduce their labor numbers, reduces costs, create more efficient vehicles and remove waste wood, so at the end of the next four quarters they expect that the economy will be on an up tic and they will be leaner and meaner. They also suspect that since folks aren't buying today they will eventually buy in the recovery phase, which will boost demand and raise the prices, or require no discounts temporally.

The argument for chapter 11 is to dump bad labor contracts, like the company must pay 80% + in salaries to workers even if the plants are closed. It will erase a lot of supplier debt as well. The courts have the power and skill to restructure all aspects of the business so no contract is or debt is safe. The downside to chapter 11 is that it takes a long time. Everyone associated with the companies have to be addressed, which in this business is thousands of companies around the world.

There is no option on the table to let them liquidate, Chapter 7, that's just been a descriptive fupar, they will continue no matter what the only thing on the table is how. The stigma of chapter 11 will cause a loss in confidence where they will loose market share in the short term, which is a 4-5 year cycle.

The loss to the government in taxes in the next five years alone is a justification for the bridge loan or even two. The losses to labor and subsequent housing and local economies are astronomical. Every town has a dealership (13,000) and associated businesses that will be hurt. Much of the work has already been done with the first 25 billion; it makes little sense in these economic times to create any more tension in the economy that already exists. If incentives were created to buy low fuel consuming cars as it was for SUV's, buy up and crush old cars, I suspect that the Big Three can reach profitability by 2012. Banks and the government will need to move together to create incentives for both cars and housing if they want to kick start the economy. The only thing that needs to be added is accountability. Oversight must return to the marketplace and the days of lopsided trade with China and others to exploit cheap labor needs to end. They have the capacity now to carrier themselves
« Last Edit: November 19, 2008, 03:55:20 AM by sandbox »

Offline krissel

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« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2008, 03:55:55 AM »
OK folks, you HAVE to read this article:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/conte...Discussed_ssi_5

A few teasers:

QUOTE
Founded during the New Deal, the FHA is supposed to promote first-time home purchases. Open to all applicants, it allows small down payments—as little as 3%—and lenient standards on borrower income, as long as mortgage and related expenses don't exceed 31% of household earnings. In exchange for taxpayer-backed insurance on attractively priced fixed-rate loans, buyers pay a modest fee. Lenders and brokers can get a license to participate in FHA programs if they demonstrate industry experience and knowledge of agency rules.


However, due to lack of oversight and fraudulent lenders (sound familiar?), the FHA has become the new Fanny Mae/Freddie Mac insuring mortgages that are bound to fail.

QUOTE
During the subprime boom, the FHA atrophied as borrowers migrated to the too-good-to-be-true deals that featured terms such as extremely low introductory interest rates that later jumped skyward. But since the subprime market vaporized in 2007, FHA-backed loans have become all that's available for many borrowers. By fall 2008, FHA loans accounted for 26% of all new mortgages being issued nationwide, up from only 4% a year earlier. As of Sept. 30, the most recent date for which data are publicly available, the FHA had 4.4 million single-family mortgages under guarantee, worth a total of $475 billion.


QUOTE
Thirty-six thousand lenders now have FHA licenses, up from 16,000 in mid-2007. FHA "faces a tsunami" in the form of ex-subprime lenders who favor aggressive sales tactics and sometimes engage in outright fraud,



My favorite from the comments section:

QUOTE
Line them up. Shoot them dead.
 


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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2008, 07:11:50 AM »
Yes, yes, yes and in some cases the subprimes were making loans at 50+% of income with balloons.
The FDIC  sheilla beard ? has a system of restructuring loans back to 31%, reducing the rate and even the principle  if nessesary to keep those house full. If they're held by brokers or speculator that got caught then they get no bailout.

The congress is fighting between the Right to work states and the states with unions. the strategy to restructure without unions or weakened unions is on the table.

When you add it all up, job dependent healthcare, collapsing 401k's, and no unions it's 1984 in the making.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 07:12:52 AM by sandbox »

Offline krissel

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« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2008, 08:57:17 AM »
If you can stand any more information without feeling ill... wink.gif

Another idea and some good links:

http://stimulus4economy.wordpress.com/2008...ce-devaluation/

More on Sheila -praised by some for her mortgage plan, she has been criticized for her dealings with Citi's attempt to buy Wachovia as a roundabout way to get Citi some of the Fed money:(read the comments, too)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...toryId=95881741

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2007/10/ext...ir-of-fdic.html



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Offline sandbox

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« Reply #59 on: November 22, 2008, 09:49:03 AM »
This was a peak into the reasons why it all happened. i saw some of the hearings where the congress questioned the credit rating agencies, like Standard & Poors and Moody's CEO's it was an outrage to see what they had created. Joe Nocera reveals some truths that have been hidden from view.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/11212008/watch.html

This was interesting as well

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/446/index.html